Wait...showdown between Warhawk and Phoenician confirmed?

[Carach]

we had a thread about primarch vs primarch duels before and i think i voiced the following (roughly)

 

i would rather Dorn vs Perturabo be about the strategy. They are duelling via the tactical maps, logistics, troop placements and holding/breaking certain positions. They do not need a physical duel. 

 

Sang already has his 2 big fights. 

 

Khan has Morty heavily implied already across several novels now, and with this recent statement he now has one with Fulgrim, too (probably when behind enemy lines he comes across a decadent Fulgrim i imagine - it's been alluded to already in Talon of Horus that Fulgrim's traditional fluff is going to be maintained in that he buggers off doing his own thing with his gang)

 

what the other primarchs do is anyone's guess, but i would hope there are not too many of these meetings because we need room for many fights among other characters (Astartes and humans alike), and having one in every other chapter is going to seriously cheapen the events

[bluntblade]

I like the idea of each Siegemaster having a sort of imagined inner dialogue with his brother.

[Lord_Caerolion]

They just spell out their speeches to each other with explosions.

 

"Lord Dorn, why are the traitor guns firing in such random targets?"

"They're not random, Malcador, they appear to be making some sort of pattern... Oh damnit, Perturabo, that's just uncalled for! Bring the reserve artillery to fire on my coordinates, these insults can't go unanswered!"

[Moonreaper666]

Except Angron, for sure. ;)

 

Very curious, as well. Fulgrim and the Khan are among the top if not the top swordsmen. If Fulgrim is facing Jaghatai full demon mode (with four arms and blades), the Khan has to be even more superior to fend that off.

 

Hopefully this will be covered by Chris. IMHO, he's the master of the Vth.

 

Nah, Khan would get his arse handed to him like Dorn and needs to sacrifice his underlings so he can run!

 

 

Even the notion of Sang beating Daemon Angron is pure BS in my opinion

[b1soul]

@ carlisimo

 

WS siege fluff is mainly in Collected Visions, no?

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Except Angron, for sure.

 

Very curious, as well. Fulgrim and the Khan are among the top if not the top swordsmen. If Fulgrim is facing Jaghatai full demon mode (with four arms and blades), the Khan has to be even more superior to fend that off.

 

Hopefully this will be covered by Chris. IMHO, he's the master of the Vth.

 

Nah, Khan would get his arse handed to him like Dorn and needs to sacrifice his underlings so he can run!

 

 

Even the notion of Sang beating Daemon Angron is pure BS in my opinion

 

 

But that's because you can't stand to see Chaos lose at anything  

 

Let's not forget that Angron is already incredibly unstable, and now that he's become Khornate he's even more rage-fuelled, with all the downsides that come with that. Sanguinius is one of the top combatants of all the Primarchs. I don't find it outside the realms of possibility that Sanguinius could take down Daemon Angron.

[carlisimo]

@ carlisimo

 

WS siege fluff is mainly in Collected Visions, no?

I think the Index Astartes article predates it. I’ll try to check. But yes, it’s all in Collected Visions.

[mc warhammer]

Reading Dark Imperium, Fulgrim absolutely wupped Guilliman's  , so it will be interesting to see how the Khan deals with it.

 

i dunno about absolutely whipped...i think guilliman made fulgrim work for it

[mc warhammer]

Sick idea...the Khan wounds Fulgrim and then leads the enraged Primarch on a chase around Terra...into civilian populations as every Legionary slaughtering citizens is not besieging the Palace!

 

 

i get that the whole EC slaughter civilians is meant to show their utter degradation and fall into undisciplined debauchery...but i would have thought the siege would still be the most stimulating environment on terra for the EC to be in.  abusing passive civilians vs an all out war that must have been like woodstock for the EC?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

Sick idea...the Khan wounds Fulgrim and then leads the enraged Primarch on a chase around Terra...into civilian populations as every Legionary slaughtering citizens is not besieging the Palace!

 

 

i get that the whole EC slaughter civilians is meant to show their utter degradation and fall into undisciplined debauchery...but i would have thought the siege would still be the most stimulating environment on terra for the EC to be in.  abusing passive civilians vs an all out war that must have been like woodstock for the EC?

 

 

Normally I'd agree, but with the pattern of "new truths" the BL series is introducing, I think this could bean interesting turn.

 

This way a somewhat logical answer is given for the EC's departure (because youre right, the Siege would be a feast compared to the boredom of mass slaughter)

 

and no loyal Primarch has emerged without compromising some of themself...so having the Khan lead the EC on a merry chase,baiting them further and further away from the Siege lines and turning the civilians of Terra into meat sacks to be diced up is perfectly grimdark to me.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

 

Sick idea...the Khan wounds Fulgrim and then leads the enraged Primarch on a chase around Terra...into civilian populations as every Legionary slaughtering citizens is not besieging the Palace!

 

i get that the whole EC slaughter civilians is meant to show their utter degradation and fall into undisciplined debauchery...but i would have thought the siege would still be the most stimulating environment on terra for the EC to be in. abusing passive civilians vs an all out war that must have been like woodstock for the EC?

Normally I'd agree, but with the pattern of "new truths" the BL series is introducing, I think this could bean interesting turn.

 

This way a somewhat logical answer is given for the EC's departure (because youre right, the Siege would be a feast compared to the boredom of mass slaughter)

 

and no loyal Primarch has emerged without compromising some of themself...so having the Khan lead the EC on a merry chase,baiting them further and further away from the Siege lines and turning the civilians of Terra into meat sacks to be diced up is perfectly grimdark to me.

i like this

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

 

Sick idea...the Khan wounds Fulgrim and then leads the enraged Primarch on a chase around Terra...into civilian populations as every Legionary slaughtering citizens is not besieging the Palace!

 

i get that the whole EC slaughter civilians is meant to show their utter degradation and fall into undisciplined debauchery...but i would have thought the siege would still be the most stimulating environment on terra for the EC to be in. abusing passive civilians vs an all out war that must have been like woodstock for the EC?

Normally I'd agree, but with the pattern of "new truths" the BL series is introducing, I think this could bean interesting turn.

 

This way a somewhat logical answer is given for the EC's departure (because youre right, the Siege would be a feast compared to the boredom of mass slaughter)

 

and no loyal Primarch has emerged without compromising some of themself...so having the Khan lead the EC on a merry chase,baiting them further and further away from the Siege lines and turning the civilians of Terra into meat sacks to be diced up is perfectly grimdark to me.

i like this

 

 

I try.

 

and think of the nightmare it would be for the Khan.

He values freedom so much, he gave his rebellious Marines the chance to erase their dishonor. He questions the very Imperium he wages wars to help build. He almost sided with Horus.

 

Now he's trapped on a single planet, in a single location. He cannot practice the style of warfare that offers him release from the invisible shackles on his soul, cannot bring the storm as the storm has come to him. 

But he knows his ideas of freedom have to be abandoned for the future of Mankind. He knows the horrors in the dark are coming and only the Imperium has any chance of resisting this new storm.

 

So he sacrifices the lives of his Marines, the population centers of Terra, to preserve Humanity's chance of surviving the all encompassing darkness brought by Horus and his brothers. As he leads the EC further and further from the SIege, the cries of the mutated Legionaries are almost loud enough to drown out the wail of the slaughtered population. The Khan is ashamed by the horrible choice he made, but refuses to turn a deaf ear to the dying. 

Because their final moments is the weight his soul carries for the chance of humanity's future. 

[b1soul]

I can live with the Khan (and the Lion and pre-Heresy Fulgrim) being better melee combatants than the Avenging Bean-Counter

 

... and I do like Guilliman. He's no slouch in at close quarters. But if Kham does significantly better against snake man than Guilliman does, I would not find that odd

[Marshal Loss]

I would not expect the Khan to do significantly better than Guilliman against Fulgrim on skill alone. There is little to suggest that, and we've seen what Daemon Fulgrim could do - hell, Guilliman knew he was going to die/lose seconds into the fight. Don't forget the whole lesson taught by the Fulgrim vs. Guilliman fight is that Guilliman should never have attempted to fight him in the first place without his Legion. Guilliman let his ego get in the way - something the Khan likely isn't going to do, judging by his development in Path of Heaven. There are degrees of difference, generally speaking, between the pre-Chaos Primarchs, so it's probably going to be a play on Fulgrim's hubris where he underestimates the Khan and allows him to do something he shouldn't be able to do in that situation.

 

The clue, I would think, lies in Scars:

 

 

‘I wonder which one of you would win in a duel,’ the Angel mused. ‘I would like to see that. You both handle a blade like gods.’
‘Name the place, brother,’ Fulgrim said to the Khan. ‘I’d even travel to Chogoris, if you built a palace to keep the dust from my armour.’
The Khan felt the insult. It stabbed at him, deeply, but his expression never changed. They could never know, none of them, how much their closed fraternity rankled him.
‘You would lose,’ said the Khan.
Fulgrim grinned, but there was something fragile in it. ‘Oh?’
‘You would lose because you would treat it like a game, like you treat everything, and I would not. You would lose because you know nothing of me, and I know everything of you because you shout it from the turrets of your battle cruisers. My prowess remains unknown. You have some reputation as a swordsman, brother, but I make no boast when I tell you I would leave you choking on it.’

 

Fulgrim is going to go in flushed with power and will either underestimate the Khan/get outsmarted, leading to a defeat, or perhaps - similarly based off Jarl Kjaran's idea (which I love - so grimdark), get baited into a part of Terra that he does not know, leading to his humbling at the hands of the Khan because he refuses to accept that he is at a disadvantage in any environment. Would be a nice reference to the 'dust form my armour' jibe. Either way, I fully expect Fulgrim, despite his power, to get humbled here, because he'll slither about with the expectation that nobody can stand their ground against him. The Khan might pull his 'perfect move' that didn't work against Mortarion, who knows - this would be a good way of emphasising his skill without bucking the trend in relation to Fulgrim's obvious martial superiority.

 

With regard to the Emperor's Children on Terra, my understanding, based off Index Astartes, was always that the reason they turned away from the Siege was because of the insane number of humans left on the planet that they could experiment with and take as slaves. Collected Visions adds to that and says that Fulgrim grew bored waiting for people to take down a wall, and so went on a rampage. I'd love it if the Khan, perhaps (?) after taking the Lion's Gate spaceport, is unable to stand the thought of Terra's population being slaughtered and tortured beyond imagination, ignoring Dorn/the Emperor's orders to go protect the people of Terra, setting up a fight with Fulgrim in the process. That would accurately reflect his character.

[mc warhammer]

With regard to the Emperor's Children on Terra, my understanding, based off Index Astartes, was always that the reason they turned away from the Siege was because of the insane number of humans left on the planet that they could experiment with and take as slaves. Collected Visions add to that and says that Fulgrim grew bored waiting for people to take down a wall, and so went on a rampage. I'd love it if the Khan, perhaps (?) after taking the Lion's Gate spaceport, is unable to stand the thought of Terra's population being slaughtered and tortured beyond imagination, ignoring Dorn/the Emperor's orders to go protect the people of Terra, setting up a fight with Fulgrim in the process. That would accurately reflect his character.

ok, that also works. haven’t read collected visions

[Marshal Loss]

 

With regard to the Emperor's Children on Terra, my understanding, based off Index Astartes, was always that the reason they turned away from the Siege was because of the insane number of humans left on the planet that they could experiment with and take as slaves. Collected Visions add to that and says that Fulgrim grew bored waiting for people to take down a wall, and so went on a rampage. I'd love it if the Khan, perhaps (?) after taking the Lion's Gate spaceport, is unable to stand the thought of Terra's population being slaughtered and tortured beyond imagination, ignoring Dorn/the Emperor's orders to go protect the people of Terra, setting up a fight with Fulgrim in the process. That would accurately reflect his character.

ok, that also works. haven’t read collected visions

 

 

I kind of agree with your earlier idea though, it does seem like the Siege would be the ultimate sensory experience based on the masses of people dying, the noise, etc, being essentially the ultimate battle, but maybe the way it will be written is that the EC are held back by Horus, not being suited or inclined towards siege warfare, and just sit there getting bored before slithering off to molest the population of Terra. And when the time comes that they are called into the breach, they are nowhere to be found.

 

In any case, taking slaves is a big part of the next stage in the Emperor's Children's evolution: the whole reason the Legion Wars start (well, a big part of it) is because they run out of slaves/servants taken on Terra/in the Scouring and decide to start taking them aggressively from the other Legions, so it makes sense that we'd see this change in priorities from the rebellion to their own pleasure begin to peak at Terra, where even previously military-minded warriors like Eidolon decide they'd rather slaughter and abduct the population of the throneworld than participate in the Siege.

[no I'm alpharius]

 

White Scars will mainly be engaging DG and Morty at the Lion's Gate Spaceport...

 

The EC are wreaking havoc in civilian living quarters, so I wonder how Khan and Fulgrim run into each other from a logistic perspective

In existing fluff, the Scars ran riot behind the traitor lines during the Siege.

 

 

From the old White Dwarf article, they did a lightning attack to free one of the space ports - the Khan riding a Razorback image comes from this. 

 

The main reason why I think there will be a fight and the Khan will win - or at least come out on top - is summarised in that Marshall Loss quote up there ^^^. 

 

Fulgrim may well be a chaos-enhanced, four-armed hermathrodite sex demon, sure, but he's still arrogant, cocky and vain. I can see it ending with a Khan suckerpunch (see also his handling of Mortarion at end of Path of Heaven -

suckers him into attacking one ship, sacrifices the Sagyar Mazan, sets the Swordstorm to explode and runs off in another ship

- there's a strong pragmatism in the way he fights. Sure, it should be pretty, it should be artful but that art counts for nought if its you lying broken on the floor). 

 

I can see any Khan/Mortarion 'fight' being a verbal one - as this will be post-Nurgle, he'll be clearly warp-touched and the crux of Scars fight was that Mortarion was already on the wrong path even if he didn't realise it. So no fight is necessarily needed, just the right words. 

 

[b1soul]

@ Marshal Loss

 

"I would not expect the Khan to do significantly better than Guilliman against Fulgrim on skill alone. There is little to suggest that"

 

We will see, as it depends on how the fight is written.

 

Sanguinius comments that Fulgrim and the Khan both handle a blade like gods.

 

Referring to the Khan, Russ says he's never seen a blade handled better. Q

 

Sure...Sang and Russ may be wrong or have a similarly high opinion of Guilliman's bladework, but that doesn't seem to fit what we know about Guilliman's strengths.

[Marshal Loss]

...well obviously it depends on how the fight is written. You can (and in your case, do) say that about anything. I'm saying there's little to suggest that the result will be any different, it as it currently stands, not that Guilliman is secretly a blademaster the equal of the Khan. Don't forget that Sangunius and the Khan are referring to his/their skill as swordsmen, not simply reflecting on their overall skill. It's a literary trope based around blades as the epitome of weaponry. Guiliman is not a famed swordsman, but he also doesn't try to match Fulgrim just with a blade.

[mc warhammer]

yeah, seconded on the idea of bladesmen vs warrior overall. i’d say either fulgrim or khan could handle a sword with more skill than angron, but that doesn’t guarantee them a win against him

[b1soul]

@ Marshal Loss

 

I'll refrain from making vague allusions to debates we've had in other threads. I'll be more than happy to continue any discussion in those threads.

 

As for the issue at hand, few things about the primarchs are cut and dry.

 

Guilliman is certainly capable of handling himself, but I'd give some primarchs an edge over him in the area of close combat:

 

Angron...certainly

Horus and Sanguinius...almost certainly

 

Russ along with blademasters like the Khan, pre-Heresy Fulgrim, and the Lion...I'd say likely.

 

Hence my original statement...based on what we know about the Khan's blade mastery, I would not find it odd if BL has Khan do better against snake Fulgrim. I don't think Khan can beat snake Fulgrim, but he can probably deal with snake Fulgrim more effectively than Guilliman.

 

Guilliman had a very hard time coping with snake Fulgrim's speed. We'll see if Khan can do better.

[MaveriK]

Often times you can see a hawk strike a snake from the ground and carry it off in the sky. But the snake can still strike the hawk while in flight and both will fall from the sky. I have no doubts in the warhawks skill with the sword. He is one of the best and this showdown will be good nonetheless!

[Marshal Loss]

@ Marshal Loss

 

I'll refrain from making vague allusions to debates we've had in other threads. I'll be more than happy to continue any discussion in those threads.

 

lol

 

oh you do amuse me so

 

Guilliman is certainly capable of handling himself, but I'd give some primarchs an edge over him in the area of close combat:

 

Angron...certainly

Horus and Sanguinius...almost certainly

 

Russ along with blademasters like the Khan, pre-Heresy Fulgrim, and the Lion...I'd say likely.

 

Hence my original statement...based on what we know about the Khan's blade mastery, I would not find it odd if BL has Khan do better against snake Fulgrim. I don't think Khan can beat snake Fulgrim, but he can probably deal with snake Fulgrim more effectively than Guilliman.

 

Guilliman had a very hard time coping with snake Fulgrim's speed. We'll see if Khan can do better.

 

And what do we know about the Khan's 'blade mastery'? Very little, and we have virtually nothing to compare him too (which, to be fair, is part of the point of his character); he's fast, has a good reputation with a blade, had fought Mortarion to a standstill with no conclusive winner, and believes he'd beat Fulgrim, pre-fall, which seems at least partly based on Fulgrim's hubris. That's it. Your belief that he's a better fighter than Guilliman is pure conjecture, based on his skill with a blade, when skill with a blade doesn't mean a better fighter overall - he'd win if they both used swords exclusively, of course, which is why his brothers count him among the best swordsmen, but Guilliman doesn't fight sword fights, and wasn't trying to beat Fulgrim at his own game - and that was the whole point. Even if he is better than Guilliman, as has been said innumerable times, we are talking degrees of difference, not a gulf. Guilliman was smashed by Fulgrim. There is little reason to think that the result is going to be any different if the Khan tries to fight him 1 on 1, which is why I don't think there's evidence that he'd do 'significantly better.' I do think he'll come out on top, for the reasons I stated above, not by virtue of blade shenanigans.

 

As was said in my original post, if you actually read it, is that there is little to suggest it, not that there was nothing. I disagreed that it's reasonable to expect him to do significantly better than Guilliman, not that he would do the same/worse. The sole advantage he has over Guilliman is speed, but he's also presumably a poorer defensive fighter. I don't think his slight speed advantage will matter against a giant four armed destroyer god with the advantage of height, reach, speed, and four arms. You are welcome to disagree, although I don't understand how you manage to misconstrue information with such regularity...

 

Either way, as a fan of both the Khan and Fulgrim, I certainly look forward to seeing what is cooked up; that much we can agree on.

[DarKnight]

Doesn't matter if it isn't written well so....okay I guess.

[carlisimo]

Traditionally, sieges are as boring as warfare can get.  The defenders hunker down in a fortification; the attackers build their own fortifications and try to starve them out.

 

This wasn't a traditional siege because it went straight into an all-out assault, but the early days would still have been more about building trenches and hardened positions to attack from.  Fulgrim wouldn't have been interested until there was a breach in the walls.