Wait...showdown between Warhawk and Phoenician confirmed?

[Mellow]

I’m hopeful that Khan doesn’t get his bottom handed to him when he fights Fulgrim although Daemon Fulgrim seems to be incredibly fast going by what happened with Guilliman.

[Damon Nightman]

Off topic, but wasn't guilliman in stasis in the first place because of a wound from fulgrim? He wasn't already aware what would happen by dark imperium times?

[Indefragable]

They just spell out their speeches to each other with explosions.

 

"Lord Dorn, why are the traitor guns firing in such random targets?"

"They're not random, Malcador, they appear to be making some sort of pattern... Oh damnit, Perturabo, that's just uncalled for! Bring the reserve artillery to fire on my coordinates, these insults can't go unanswered!"

LOLZ

 

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/military/sd-me-sky-penis-20171117-story.html

 

“Wait...listen...”

“...what is it, brother?”

“...the guns...there’s...a...pattern...to their firing.”

“By the Emprah! I think you’re right! It’s sounds like the ancient Morse’s Battlesign! Can you make out what it’s saying?”

“I think so...it says ‘Dorn...has...a...small....’...BY THE PRIMARCH! This insult shall not stand! Charge!!!!!”

[Roomsky]

Off topic, but wasn't guilliman in stasis in the first place because of a wound from fulgrim? He wasn't already aware what would happen by dark imperium times?

 

Dark Imperium opens with Scouring-Guilliman at Thessalla in the engagement that results in his being put into stasis. The story then cuts to the end of the Indomitus Crusade. He doesn't try to fight Fulgrim again, it details the first time.

[Damon Nightman]

Oh okay! Right after I posted I figured that must be the case. Thank you!

[mc warhammer]

 

 

@ Marshal Loss

 

I'll refrain from making vague allusions to debates we've had in other threads. I'll be more than happy to continue any discussion in those threads.

lol

 

oh you do amuse me so

Guilliman is certainly capable of handling himself, but I'd give some primarchs an edge over him in the area of close combat:

 

Angron...certainly

Horus and Sanguinius...almost certainly

 

Russ along with blademasters like the Khan, pre-Heresy Fulgrim, and the Lion...I'd say likely.

 

Hence my original statement...based on what we know about the Khan's blade mastery, I would not find it odd if BL has Khan do better against snake Fulgrim. I don't think Khan can beat snake Fulgrim, but he can probably deal with snake Fulgrim more effectively than Guilliman.

 

Guilliman had a very hard time coping with snake Fulgrim's speed. We'll see if Khan can do better.

And what do we know about the Khan's 'blade mastery'? Very little, and we have virtually nothing to compare him too (which, to be fair, is part of the point of his character); he's fast, has a good reputation with a blade, had fought Mortarion to a standstill with no conclusive winner, and believes he'd beat Fulgrim, pre-fall, which seems at least partly based on Fulgrim's hubris. That's it. Your belief that he's a better fighter than Guilliman is pure conjecture, based on his skill with a blade, when skill with a blade doesn't mean a better fighter overall - he'd win if they both used swords exclusively, of course, which is why his brothers count him among the best swordsmen, but Guilliman doesn't fight sword fights, and wasn't trying to beat Fulgrim at his own game - and that was the whole point. Even if he is better than Guilliman, as has been said innumerable times, we are talking degrees of difference, not a gulf. Guilliman was smashed by Fulgrim. There is little reason to think that the result is going to be any different if the Khan tries to fight him 1 on 1, which is why I don't think there's evidence that he'd do 'significantly better.' I do think he'll come out on top, for the reasons I stated above, not by virtue of blade shenanigans.

 

As was said in my original post, if you actually read it, is that there is little to suggest it, not that there was nothing. I disagreed that it's reasonable to expect him to do significantly better than Guilliman, not that he would do the same/worse. The sole advantage he has over Guilliman is speed, but he's also presumably a poorer defensive fighter. I don't think his slight speed advantage will matter against a giant four armed destroyer god with the advantage of height, reach, speed, and four arms. You are welcome to disagree, although I don't understand how you manage to misconstrue information with such regularity...

 

Either way, as a fan of both the Khan and Fulgrim, I certainly look forward to seeing what is cooked up; that much we can agree on.

afaik the guilliman is a secretary and not a fighter is one of those internet truths that came about through lack of evidence not evidence of lack

[Phoebus]

Personally, I'm just... neutral about this. I'm not thrilled about the prospect; I'm not opposed to it, either.

 

Some authors handle these duels between primarchs well. Some deliver fight scenes that are little more than inconsequential filler. There's obviously some built-in difficulty with these fights because we know how the Horus Heresy will end and thus knew that Curze couldn't die at the Lion's hands or at Macragge, and so on. The bigger issue, I think is that the Horus Heresy team has missed the opportunity to build up narratives that culminate with these duels.

 

In this specific case, what does Jaghatai Khan squaring off against Fulgrim serve? On a very basic level, it could be a satisfying encounter that's pleasing to read. It could prove to be one of several worthwhile side-plots that engage the reader away from the efforts of Horus and the Emperor. What's the setup for it, though? Betrayer wasn't just about three Primarchs having at it: the duel between Angron, Guilliman, and Lorgar was about the vengeance that all three brothers wanted, and the culmination of a spiritual struggle that had been going on since The First Heretic and Aurelian, and had been a key component of Know No Fear and other, shorter stories. Yes, the Emperor's Children do serve as the White Scars' antagonists in Path of Heaven, but they don't have a grand rivalry to settle on Terra. It could just as easily have been the Death Guard, and one might genuinely ask why Chris Wraight shied away from using the XIV Legion in that role in that otherwise excellent novel. Ultimately, I can’t shake the feeling that this comes down to the fact that Jaghatai Khan needs something to do during the Siege. He could get a killer outing (Dorn and Alpharius didn't exactly have much back-story to justify their duel, either, and it was great!) or it could be like the fourth (or fifth, or whatever) time the Lion and Curze fought (to no real conclusion, and with no genuine impact on the story).

 

That's been the ongoing problem with this grand, mostly great, sometimes underwhelming series, though. Some authors like writing about some factions, some authors write faster than others, some authors only want to write so much in this setting, and so on. Some plot lines were a given (because they have existed for decades), others came as a result of structured conferences, and still others were ideas an author independently proposed to their editors. The result is a series that has been very well planned at times, very disjointed for prolonged periods, and never able to capture all eighteen legions (much less all the other important factions out there) in a comprehensive manner. Its a series whose high points guarantee I'll be every numbered entry, but whose low points ensure I can't be excited just because "Primarch X will face down Primarch Y in a duel for the ages!"

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

Except Angron, for sure.

 

Very curious, as well. Fulgrim and the Khan are among the top if not the top swordsmen. If Fulgrim is facing Jaghatai full demon mode (with four arms and blades), the Khan has to be even more superior to fend that off.

 

Hopefully this will be covered by Chris. IMHO, he's the master of the Vth.

Nah, Khan would get his arse handed to him like Dorn and needs to sacrifice his underlings so he can run!

 

 

Even the notion of Sang beating Daemon Angron is pure BS in my opinion

But that's because you can't stand to see Chaos lose at anything

 

Let's not forget that Angron is already incredibly unstable, and now that he's become Khornate he's even more rage-fuelled, with all the downsides that come with that. Sanguinius is one of the top combatants of all the Primarchs. I don't find it outside the realms of possibility that Sanguinius could take down Daemon Angron.

Didn't Sang lost to Ka'Bandha?

 

Daemon Angron is much more powerful than Ka'Bandha

[Chapter Master Valrak]

Khan banishes Fulgrim, beheading him? I'd like that :D

[TheRealMcCagh]

 

Didn't Sang lost to Ka'Bandha?

 

Daemon Angron is much more powerful than Ka'Bandha

 

 

The first fight is Sanguinius about to kill Ka'Bandha, then the Bloodthirster reveals Horus' treachery and snaps Sangy's legs while he stands there in disbelief (kind of a lame direction, since it should have at least been a possibility in Sanguinius' mind). While Sanguinius is laying on the ground in agony he still tells Ka'Bandha to come and get it, but Ka'Bandha says he knows the secret to killing the Angel and turns around and kills like 500 Blood Angels in one swing. The psychic backlash knocks Sanguinius unconscious and the remaining Blood Angels go into a frenzy. 

 

The second fight is Sanguinius straight up murdering Ka'Bandha by ripping the wings of his back and throwing him back into the Chaos portal they had opened up. Apart from those two fights, Sanguinius hasn't really done a whole lot of fighting. Hopefully during the Siege we can see full on Angel-of-Vengeance mode Sanguinius.

[b1soul]

 

lol

 

oh you do amuse me so

 

That warms my cockles

 

And what do we know about the Khan's 'blade mastery'? Very little, and we have virtually nothing to compare him too (which, to be fair, is part of the point of his character); he's fast, has a good reputation with a blade, had fought Mortarion to a standstill with no conclusive winner, and believes he'd beat Fulgrim, pre-fall, which seems at least partly based on Fulgrim's hubris. That's it. Your belief that he's a better fighter than Guilliman is pure conjecture, based on his skill with a blade, when skill with a blade doesn't mean a better fighter overall

 

When it comes to primarchs, there's room to make reasonable conjectures. I believe mine is reasonable.

 

The Khan is more of a combat-oriented primarch relative to Guilliman.

 

We know Sanguinius and Russ, two of the top primarch fighters, hold Khan in particularly high regard.

 

Yes, sword mastery does not necessarily mean "better" in a fight, but it sure helps.

 

The Khan's sword mastery is also based significantly on his extreme speed. He shoukd be the physically fasteat primarch in the way Vulkan is the physically strongest. When using blades (power blades here) - moreso than when punching or wrestling - speed kills. It's not an "I Win" button, but it'll probably help Khan keep up with snake Fulgrim, something Guilliman was a bit too slow to do.

 

Even if he is better than Guilliman, as has been said innumerable times, we are talking degrees of difference, not a gulf.

 

Sure...the odds differences among primarchs aren't massive. Hence my use of the word "edge". The only exception being Lorgar when he was in a weak and pathetic mental state.

 

Guilliman was smashed by Fulgrim. There is little reason to think that the result is going to be any different if the Khan tries to fight him 1 on 1, which is why I don't think there's evidence that he'd do 'significantly better.'

 

There' s little hard evidence any which way at this point... So sure, your opinion is as valid as mine.

 

Khan could still lose to snake Fulgrim (without dying or being sent into a coma) or it could still be made clear that Fulgrim has the net advantage. Khan may simply deliver a better showing than Guilliman.

 

I do think he'll come out on top, for the reasons I stated above, not by virtue of blade shenanigans.

That would be another way to handle the fight.

 

As was said in my original post, if you actually read it

I read it...did you actually read mine perchance?

 

is that there is little to suggest it, not that there was nothing. I disagreed that it's reasonable to expect him to do significantly better than Guilliman, not that he would do the same/worse.

I didn't say I expect him to do better. I said I would not find it odd if he did. This is due to the way the Khan has been set up as a very formidable blademaster. On balance, I think he (1) has an overall edge over Guilliman and (2) is a better style match-up against snake Fulgrim.

 

I feel similarly about pre-Heresy Fulgrim or the Lion.

 

The sole advantage he has over Guilliman is speed, but he's also presumably a poorer defensive fighter.

That's your counter-conjecture now isn't it

 

I don't think his slight speed advantage

Same as above

 

You are welcome to disagree, although I don't understand how you manage to misconstrue information with such regularity...

 

Or so you claim

[Marshal Loss]

 

When it comes to primarchs, there's room to make reasonable conjectures. I believe mine is reasonable.

 

The Khan is more of a combat-oriented primarch relative to Guilliman.

 

We know Sanguinius and Russ, two of the top primarch fighters, hold Khan in particularly high regard.

 

Yes, sword mastery does not necessarily mean "better" in a fight, but it sure helps.

 

The Khan's sword mastery is also based significantly on his extreme speed. He shoukd be the physically fasteat primarch in the way Vulkan is the physically strongest. When using blades (power blades here) - moreso than when punching or wrestling - speed kills. It's not an "I Win" button, but it'll probably help Khan keep up with snake Fulgrim, something Guilliman was a bit too slow to do.

 

Blanket assertion. The Khan is not more of a combat-oriented Primarch relative to Guilliman; that's misleading in the best case. Building on mc warhammer's comment above, Guilliman was raised in a martial environment, just as the Khan was. Their backgrounds are simply significantly different in cultural terms. The notion that Guilliman is not a 'combat Primarch' comes from his unusual aptitude outside of warfare, which leads to derision from some quarters, but these do not detract from his martial qualities. He is unquestionably one of the more martial of the Primarchs.

 

Sword mastery just means he is excellent with a blade, which carries very little weight when we're talking about Primarch vs Primarch fights, outside of a rather specific set of criteria. This is your 'White Scars sword bias' predictably rearing its head.

 

A bit of absolutism at play there. Fulgrim has just as much claim to the title of 'fastest Primarch' as the Khan does, whatever your ('massive loyalist fan') beliefs may tell you. Speed is a single factor. So is reach, height, strength, armament, etc. Degrees of difference, not gulfs. As an example, Mortarion is comparatively slow, yet is not cut to pieces by the Khan's 'power blade,' unless you're trying to tell me that his weapon never landed on the Death Lord's warplate (which we know it did, as his armour bears the scars of that last conflict in later works). Clearly Primarchs are able to compensate for speed with other aspects of their skill set or armament, and having a powered weapon doesn't automatically mean a fast fighter is able to cut his opponent to pieces through armour with impunity. The idea that there is a Primarch who is the indisputably the strongest, another the fastest, etc, is also tiresome. That's not how the setting works.

 

 

Even if he is better than Guilliman, as has been said innumerable times, we are talking degrees of difference, not a gulf.

 

Sure...the odds differences among primarchs aren't massive. Hence my use of the word "edge". The only exception being Lorgar when he was in a weak and pathetic mental state.

 

Which is the whole reason why I started a discussion based on 'significant.'

 

 

There' s little hard evidence any which way at this point... So sure, your opinion is as valid as mine.

 

Khan could still lose to snake Fulgrim (without dying or being sent into a coma) or it could still be made clear that Fulgrim has the net advantage. Khan may simply deliver a better showing than Guilliman.

 

Once again, this is where the 'significantly better' comment comes into play. As I've said, I have no issue with him doing better than Guilliman; I simply stated why there's no real evidence that he'd do 'significantly better.'

 

 

I didn't say I expect him to do better. I said I would not find it odd if he did. This is due to the way the Khan has been set up as a very formidable blademaster. On balance, I think he (1) has an overall edge over Guilliman and (2) is a better style match-up against snake Fulgrim.

 

You said you would not find it odd if he did significantly better. Qualifying statements matter, which is what I was discussing.

 

 

The sole advantage he has over Guilliman is speed, but he's also presumably a poorer defensive fighter.

That's your counter-conjecture now isn't it

 

I don't think his slight speed advantage

Same as above

 

Both of these logically follow the assertions made by both, especially given your past claims that the Khan is a glass cannon.  And yes, obviously they are conjecture - that's why I said 'presumably' and 'think'.

 

 

You are welcome to disagree, although I don't understand how you manage to misconstrue information with such regularity...

Or so you claim

 

Oh, most definitely.

 

Anyway, I don't have anything else to add and it's becoming rather tangential to the topic, so I'll leave you to your echo chamber

[Phoebus]

Marshal Loss,

 

I’m not looking for an argument or anything, but I’m genuinely stumped as to why you’re taking such an issue with a position that has pretty consistently been summed up as, “I wouldn’t be surprised if Khan did better than Guilliman because of X.” b1soul cited certain in-universe opinions to back that position, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, he hasn’t been arguing along the lines of absolutes or claiming any certainty, right?

 

As for any already-existing animosity the two of you might feel toward each other is concerned... It’s just my two cents, but I don’t think it helps generate good discussion.

[Marshal Loss]

I’m not looking for an argument or anything, but I’m genuinely stumped as to why you’re taking such an issue with a position that has pretty consistently been summed up as, “I wouldn’t be surprised if Khan did better than Guilliman because of X.” b1soul cited certain in-universe opinions to back that position, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, he hasn’t been arguing along the lines of absolutes or claiming any certainty, right?

 

If you would be so kind as to start at the beginning,I clearly don't take issue with that position. What I initially commented on was the idea that he could/would do significantly better, which I disagreed with, citing that there is no factual basis to assume that the Khan will perform significantly better than Guilliman. I am still at a loss as to why this is proving so difficult to digest, as I've stated multiple times that there is nothing wrong with assuming the Khan would do better than Guilliman in itself. That point has not changed. Perhaps it's the language barrier causing such difficulties. And by absolutes, I was referring to a particular set of comments;

 

 

The Khan is more of a combat-oriented primarch relative to Guilliman.

 shoukd be the physically fasteat primarch in the way Vulkan is the physically strongest

 

So actually yes, he has been stating opinions in the guise of certainty, and it was those assertions that I questioned.

 

As for the animosity, obviously it doesn't, which is why I stated I had nothing further to add in the above post, and acknowledge my responsibility in bowing out.

[Kelborn]

But from what we know, certain Primarchs were more suitable to certain tasks / duties than others.

 

I agree that every Primarch is a beast in battle, capable of doing the impossible. But there are some, like Guiliman or Vulkan or Dorn, who are somewhat "specialized" in what they are doing: building empires, crafting, building defenses, etc.

 

Then we got those, whose purpose seems to be more war oriented like Russ, Angron, Corax / Kurze and so on. They seem to exist for stuff like annihilating the Emperor's foes, eradicating them entirely or conducting surgical strikes for sabotage.

 

We all can agree on this, right?

 

So it seems not very far off to say that someone like the Khan, who is hunting at the edge of the Imperium, chasing down his prey, basically being born for this kind of stuff, is somewhat more "capable" to stand his ground against another foe in melee combat. Guiliman is more of an analytical character. Maybe something towards Robert Downey Jr.'s Holmes.

 

What we know is that the Khan is referred to as a superb swordsman. Maybe even among the top melee fighters of them all. We cannot confirm this as for now. We only had one real duel for him thus far.

 

But from what we got until now, I dare to say that the Khan is more comfortable in fighting with a sword. Yes, Fulgrim got four, but Jaghatai theoretically has the better starting point in such a duel compared to other Primarchs.

 

I don't think that he would defeat daemon Fulgrim. I'm still not sure how the loyal Primarchs shall handle their Daemon-Primarch brothers without any help.

 

Time will tell.

 

And let's be honest: Vulkan would own them all, during the Siege, as he simply cannot die. (joking)

[mc warhammer]

i think it’s all fairly open

 

but just because something is your sole focus doesn’t make you the best at it. plenty of people dedicate themselves to one pursuit with mediocre results

 

just because a primarch has no other interests or hobbies beyond war, doesn’t mean they naturally outperform the others who do

 

sanguinius and fulgrim were also artists. horus was a consummate politician. that has very little effect on their ability to kick @$$

[Marshal Loss]

i think it’s all fairly open

 

but just because something is your sole focus doesn’t make you the best at it. plenty of people dedicate themselves to one pursuit with mediocre results

 

just because a primarch has no other interests or hobbies beyond war, doesn’t mean they naturally outperform the others who do

 

sanguinius and fulgrim were also artists. horus was a consummate politician. that has very little effect on their ability to kick @$$

 

Yeah, exactly. People tend to be parochial when it comes to the Primarchs; not pointing fingers, but those stereotypes presented above are as good a reminder as any. The Khan is fast and is described as a great blademaster, so that's what he is, and therefore must be better at (x) than somebody not described similarly. Guilliman is renowned for his administrative/empire building, so that's what he's good at, despite a distinguished combat record against some powerful Primarchs (Lorgar on warp juice, Angry Angron) and a highly martial upbringing, etc, etc.

 

There are rarely cases - without specific evidence - where I think it's fair to describe any Primarch are being significantly more likely to be better than somebody at anything, that's all.

[hopkins]

primarch top trumps? again?

[Kelborn]

Totally fair point, guys.

 

Just my pov on what was revealed thus far and thoughts about Primarchs.

 

Thinking about it lead me to the question if the Primarchs are "designed" for their later purpose / seemingly role or if they were "blank" and just formed by childhood, the culture of their homeworld. It's debatable.

 

We don't know this. Maybe we will never know for sure.

 

Great projects like the Dornian heresy covered this as well.

[Damon Nightman]

No idea "significantly" was such an important word that could cause all this arguing without any personal grudges involved like at all...

[Rob P]

I’m hopeful that Khan doesn’t get his bottom handed to him when he fights Fulgrim although Daemon Fulgrim seems to be incredibly fast going by what happened with Guilliman.

 

I'm sort of feeling like this.

 

The WS got whipped in Path of Heaven.

 

I want to see that they have learnt to adapt to their enemy a little bit.

[bluntblade]

 

 

I’m hopeful that Khan doesn’t get his bottom handed to him when he fights Fulgrim although Daemon Fulgrim seems to be incredibly fast going by what happened with Guilliman.

I'm sort of feeling like this.

 

The WS got whipped in Path of Heaven.

 

I want to see that they have learnt to adapt to their enemy a little bit.

They did adapt. The issue was more that their enemies had crushing advantages in numbers and resources.

[karden00]

 

 

@ Marshal Loss

 

I'll refrain from making vague allusions to debates we've had in other threads. I'll be more than happy to continue any discussion in those threads.

lol

 

oh you do amuse me so

Guilliman is certainly capable of handling himself, but I'd give some primarchs an edge over him in the area of close combat:

 

Angron...certainly

Horus and Sanguinius...almost certainly

 

Russ along with blademasters like the Khan, pre-Heresy Fulgrim, and the Lion...I'd say likely.

 

Hence my original statement...based on what we know about the Khan's blade mastery, I would not find it odd if BL has Khan do better against snake Fulgrim. I don't think Khan can beat snake Fulgrim, but he can probably deal with snake Fulgrim more effectively than Guilliman.

 

Guilliman had a very hard time coping with snake Fulgrim's speed. We'll see if Khan can do better.

And what do we know about the Khan's 'blade mastery'? Very little, and we have virtually nothing to compare him too (which, to be fair, is part of the point of his character); he's fast, has a good reputation with a blade, had fought Mortarion to a standstill with no conclusive winner, and believes he'd beat Fulgrim, pre-fall, which seems at least partly based on Fulgrim's hubris. That's it. Your belief that he's a better fighter than Guilliman is pure conjecture, based on his skill with a blade, when skill with a blade doesn't mean a better fighter overall - he'd win if they both used swords exclusively, of course, which is why his brothers count him among the best swordsmen, but Guilliman doesn't fight sword fights, and wasn't trying to beat Fulgrim at his own game - and that was the whole point. Even if he is better than Guilliman, as has been said innumerable times, we are talking degrees of difference, not a gulf. Guilliman was smashed by Fulgrim. There is little reason to think that the result is going to be any different if the Khan tries to fight him 1 on 1, which is why I don't think there's evidence that he'd do 'significantly better.' I do think he'll come out on top, for the reasons I stated above, not by virtue of blade shenanigans.

 

As was said in my original post, if you actually read it, is that there is little to suggest it, not that there was nothing. I disagreed that it's reasonable to expect him to do significantly better than Guilliman, not that he would do the same/worse. The sole advantage he has over Guilliman is speed, but he's also presumably a poorer defensive fighter. I don't think his slight speed advantage will matter against a giant four armed destroyer god with the advantage of height, reach, speed, and four arms. You are welcome to disagree, although I don't understand how you manage to misconstrue information with such regularity...

 

Either way, as a fan of both the Khan and Fulgrim, I certainly look forward to seeing what is cooked up; that much we can agree on.

afaik the guilliman is a secretary and not a fighter is one of those internet truths that came about through lack of evidence not evidence of lack

 

 

Thank you for that logic bomb. 

It's sad how easily "Guilliman was great at waging war, in all of its aspects, including logistics and empire-building" seems to so automatically to some turn into "Guilliman cant handle a fight."

The Avenging Bean-Counter sure was a hell of a funny line, but I think it really did a lot to strengthen the notion that he is better at logistics than fighting. 

[Marshal Loss]

There's nothing wrong with the line; it's reflective of how single-minded the Primarchs (and fans of the Primarchs) tend to be. It's also easy to see why he attracts this negative reputation - If Guilliman and his Legion weren't the poster children of 40k, and weren't omnipresent in all aspects of both settings, their reputation would likely be far better. That's the price you pay for their decades-long prominence.

 

Whatever Guilliman's flaws, he applies his talents across a far wider spectrum than the overwhelming majority of his brothers - perhaps all - and both in-universe and in real life, he's looked down upon for it, as a perceived bureaucrat in a brotherhood of warriors. Love him or hate him, his skill and distinguished combat record speaks for itself.

[b1soul]

@ Marshal Loss

 

"Significantly" is a pretty flexible word. When I say significantly, I mean non-negligibly or more than slightly...but not massively.

 

To be clear, I do not fancy the odds of Khan against snake Fulgrim at all. But maye he could (i) deliver a noticeably stronger showing than Guilliman, lose, then somehow get "rescued" or (ii) win with guile and support.

 

Do you think it's unreasonable to feel that pre-Heresy Fulgrim has an edge over Guilliman? I feel the Khan and Fulgrim are around the same level, except the Khan isn't quite as egotistical.