Wait...showdown between Warhawk and Phoenician confirmed?

[Phoebus]

The thing about Guilliman as a "bean counter" is that it's about as apropos and accurate as the "Failbaddon" meme. It's another instance of too many people taking a complex character and trying fit him in rigid, ordered structures while reducing him to a small number of traits. All this, while essentially ignoring the fact that authors like A D-B constantly warn against that very phenomenon, or the fact that how a character is depicted - and how well he does - may vary depending on what author is writing him. And that's before we get into the fact that these fictional characters all also have game statistics to piggy-back unto their novelized depictions.

[Marshal Loss]

I was talking about the use of the line in-universe, not endorsing its use as a descriptive, and did mention the fanbase being parochial in a previous post. It is highly reflective of anti-Guilliman sentiment though, and helps reinforce how his critics see him, so it has a place in-novel. Readers are always going to take things out of context or read between the lines, and anybody who took it to be accurate is either new or already possessed an immutable view prior to going into the novel.

[Phoebus]

Yeah, to be clear, I'm talking about the phenomenon as a whole - not about you specifically. :)

[carlisimo]

Let’s not forget who had home field advantage in the Fulgrim v. Guilliman duel. It was a trap and that has psychological effects on the two.

 

On Terra it’s easy to imagine that the Khan gets to pick where and when to fight, since the White Scars spend a lot of time fighting outside of the palace walls.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

Didn't Sang lost to Ka'Bandha?

 

Daemon Angron is much more powerful than Ka'Bandha

 

The first fight is Sanguinius about to kill Ka'Bandha, then the Bloodthirster reveals Horus' treachery and snaps Sangy's legs while he stands there in disbelief (kind of a lame direction, since it should have at least been a possibility in Sanguinius' mind). While Sanguinius is laying on the ground in agony he still tells Ka'Bandha to come and get it, but Ka'Bandha says he knows the secret to killing the Angel and turns around and kills like 500 Blood Angels in one swing. The psychic backlash knocks Sanguinius unconscious and the remaining Blood Angels go into a frenzy.

 

The second fight is Sanguinius straight up murdering Ka'Bandha by ripping the wings of his back and throwing him back into the Chaos portal they had opened up. Apart from those two fights, Sanguinius hasn't really done a whole lot of fighting. Hopefully during the Siege we can see full on Angel-of-Vengeance mode Sanguinius.

I forgot, Madail was able to meet Sang blow-for-blow

 

If it weren't for the Saguinator, Madail would have dragged Sanguinius into the warp, allowing Horus to win the Heresy!

 

 

Madail isn't as powerful as An'ggrath

 

 

Is Daemon Angron's power between that of An'ggrath and Doombreed?

 

 

Ka'Bandha is kinda pathetic for a Bloodthrister, he is inferior to the three above

 

 

Keep in mind that Fulgrim crippled Guilliman in ONE hit, and that was his first and only strike in the duel

 

 

Angron and Fulgrim can just wear down Sang and Khan via battle fatigue and then give the coup de grace!

 

 

Meanwhile, even with their hardest hits, Khan and Sang would take several hours to beat Angron and Fulgrim

 

Let’s not forget who had home field advantage in the Fulgrim v. Guilliman duel. It was a trap and that has psychological effects on the two.

 

On Terra it’s easy to imagine that the Khan gets to pick where and when to fight, since the White Scars spend a lot of time fighting outside of the palace walls.

Actually it would be the opposite

 

 

Being the most powerful and UNKILLABLE duo of the Traitor Primarchs, Angron and Fulgrim would DESTROY the Loyalists in the Siege of Terra!

 

-No way Khan and Sang can just wait while Angron and Fulgrim KILL MILLIONS OF GUARDSMEN AND ENTIRE LOYALIST LEGIONS!

 

-The walls of the Palace would be breached and the defenders would be dead within a few hours with the exception of most of the Custodes and Loyalist Titans

 

-Khan/Sang have to duel or continually distract Angron/Fulgrim

 

 

How many days is the Siege of Terra?

 

 

Constatin Valdor is going to die protecting one of the Loyalist Primarchs!

[TheRealMcCagh]

Well, if the BL authors were more interested in giving a list of feats for some online battle forum you may be right Moonreaper666. I'd rather they make a good story with a narrative. The Primarchs will probably be as strong or as skilled as the story requires. Khan struggles in his fight with a Keeper of Secrets (forgot her name) at the end of PoH, meanwhile Sanguinius impales Kryiss to the wall right away, then duels and defeats Ka'Bandha, then turns around and executes Kyriss pretty easily. But I don't think Sanguinius is exponentially more powerful than Khan. Demon Angron will be as great a fighter as he needs to be to move the plot

[Ranwulf]

Guilliman is the loyalist Primarch that faced:

 

Daemon Magnus

Deamon Fulgrim

Deamon Mortarion

Angron + Lorgar

Curze

Alpharius

 

He faced more than half of the traitor primarchs and is still standing, even compared to Ferrus who lost his head, Sanguinius that died to Horus (which is fair, because its super Horus), Russ (sort of lost against Angron, who broke Magnus back, but then got his ass kicked by Horus).

 

Seriously, why do people think Guilliman is not one of the BEST fighters of the whole Primarchs? He is literally the only one to survive TWO Primarchs at the same time, and one of them was Angron. 

 

Ran

 

Edit: Added Alpharius. But I'm not sure if he counts...

[mc warhammer]

outdated, i know, but this piece always struck me as a meeting of blade masters, moreso than multi page “epic” duels:

 

Our great Lord and Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself strode forward, ignoring the melee around him, straight towards Alpharius. The two Primarch's stood before each other. They were equal in stature, both clad in shining power armour and each wielding a glittering power sword, but where one was noble the other was craven, where one was loyal the other was a betrayer. All other combat ceased as we watched them. There was a long pause, neither Primarch moving an inch, then both struck in an instant. Each sword made a single stroke and then both were till again. For a second, the two great men stood facing, before Alpharius slumped to the ground.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

 

Didn't Sang lost to Ka'Bandha?

 

Daemon Angron is much more powerful than Ka'Bandha

The first fight is Sanguinius about to kill Ka'Bandha, then the Bloodthirster reveals Horus' treachery and snaps Sangy's legs while he stands there in disbelief (kind of a lame direction, since it should have at least been a possibility in Sanguinius' mind). While Sanguinius is laying on the ground in agony he still tells Ka'Bandha to come and get it, but Ka'Bandha says he knows the secret to killing the Angel and turns around and kills like 500 Blood Angels in one swing. The psychic backlash knocks Sanguinius unconscious and the remaining Blood Angels go into a frenzy.

 

The second fight is Sanguinius straight up murdering Ka'Bandha by ripping the wings of his back and throwing him back into the Chaos portal they had opened up. Apart from those two fights, Sanguinius hasn't really done a whole lot of fighting. Hopefully during the Siege we can see full on Angel-of-Vengeance mode Sanguinius.

I forgot, Madail was able to meet Sang blow-for-blow

 

If it weren't for the Saguinator, Madail would have dragged Sanguinius into the warp, allowing Horus to win the Heresy!

 

 

Madail isn't as powerful as An'ggrath

 

 

Is Daemon Angron's power between that of An'ggrath and Doombreed?

 

 

Ka'Bandha is kinda pathetic for a Bloodthrister, he is inferior to the three above

 

 

Keep in mind that Fulgrim crippled Guilliman in ONE hit, and that was his first and only strike in the duel

 

 

Angron and Fulgrim can just wear down Sang and Khan via battle fatigue and then give the coup de grace!

 

 

Meanwhile, even with their hardest hits, Khan and Sang would take several hours to beat Angron and Fulgrim

 

Let’s not forget who had home field advantage in the Fulgrim v. Guilliman duel. It was a trap and that has psychological effects on the two.

 

On Terra it’s easy to imagine that the Khan gets to pick where and when to fight, since the White Scars spend a lot of time fighting outside of the palace walls.

Actually it would be the opposite

 

 

Being the most powerful and UNKILLABLE duo of the Traitor Primarchs, Angron and Fulgrim would DESTROY the Loyalists in the Siege of Terra!

 

-No way Khan and Sang can just wait while Angron and Fulgrim KILL MILLIONS OF GUARDSMEN AND ENTIRE LOYALIST LEGIONS!

 

-The walls of the Palace would be breached and the defenders would be dead within a few hours with the exception of most of the Custodes and Loyalist Titans

 

-Khan/Sang have to duel or continually distract Angron/Fulgrim

 

 

How many days is the Siege of Terra?

 

 

Constatin Valdor is going to die protecting one of the Loyalist Primarchs!

 

 

Angron is "the most unkillable of the Traitor Primarchs"? Dude, you do know he's the one Daemon Primarch we have a canonical example of banishment of, even before all the new fluff, right, on Armageddon? Also, Angron wearing down Sanguinius before delivering the killing blow? As we all know, Angron is most definitely known for his restraint in battle, and his tactical thinking in duels, rather than his unrestrained savagery /s.

 

Lastly, Angron/Fulgrim destroy entire Loyalist Legions? Come on, man. You know they're not that powerful. If that were the case, Chaos literally would be unstoppable, and would have curb-stomped the Palace into the ground. Three loyalist Legions defending? Cool, we've got at least 4 Daemon Primarchs. Just send one to tie up each Loyalist Primarch, and one to kill "entire Loyalist Legions". The actual Chaos Legions can then just roflstomp the Imperial Army defences, and then you've got the rest of the Chaos Primarchs to help slaughter whatever else needs killing.

The fact that that isn't how it played out shows that the Daemon Primarchs are therefore not as ungodly powerful as you make them out to be. Well, that, and every bit of fluff we have on them. I can understand being a fan of your faction, but it's another thing to head-canon them into being literally unbeatable.

[karden00]

outdated, i know, but this piece always struck me as a meeting of blade masters, moreso than multi page “epic” duels:Our great Lord and Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself strode forward, ignoring the melee around him, straight towards Alpharius. The two Primarch's stood before each other. They were equal in stature, both clad in shining power armour and each wielding a glittering power sword, but where one was noble the other was craven, where one was loyal the other was a betrayer. All other combat ceased as we watched them. There was a long pause, neither Primarch moving an inch, then both struck in an instant. Each sword made a single stroke and then both were till again. For a second, the two great men stood facing, before Alpharius slumped to the ground.

What’s the source on that one? IA:UM? It seems familiar but I can’t place it

[mc warhammer]

yeah, sorry. IA:AL

 

i mean, it’s also a source that states alpharius should be as tall as rob, but it also nicely backs guilliman’s reputation as a warrior. for what it’s worth

[Mellow]

The whole “a single stroke” thing seems a bit ... boring.

 

Anyway. Guilliman didn’t kill Alpharius. Dorn did.

[mc warhammer]

a lot of people would agree with you. it's def not what we've been prepped to expect.

 

to me, the single stroke is a lot less...contrived.  i like the quick-draw aspect to it; two expert gunslingers in a final showdown. pages of block, parry, dodge, thrust, ballet twirl, hop skip jump are nice in that hollywood kinda way but creatures operating at that level of precision, speed and ability? a tenth of second is all they should need to gain or lose the advantage.

 

one strike is more than enough.

 

 

 

Anyway. Guilliman didn’t kill Alpharius. Dorn did.

 

don't think that was debated?

[bluntblade]

I recall an excellent samurai film where the final duel was a single blow

[Sandlemad]

a lot of people would agree with you. it's def not what we've been prepped to expect.

 

to me, the single stroke is a lot less...contrived.  i like the quick-draw aspect to it; two expert gunslingers in a final showdown. pages of block, parry, dodge, thrust, ballet twirl, hop skip jump are nice in that hollywood kinda way but creatures operating at that level of precision, speed and ability? a tenth of second is all they should need to gain or lose the advantage.

 

one strike is more than enough.

 

Good point but to be honest, I didn't recall that IA:AL fight being so very... anime. That might not have been what the IA writer was going for but it's still hard to imagine with two 9ft-tall dudes in power armour. Not sure if it's necessarily better than unrealistic day-long hackfests.

[mc warhammer]

i wouldn’t argue that unrealistic 24 hour hackfests all be replaced by one hit wonder fights between primarchs...but a bit of variety is appreciated

[Bulwyf]

A few thoughts...

 

I hate that inevitably HH primarch discussion, much like regular characters in 40k, turns into some version of "My daddy could kick your daddy's arse!".  All of the primarchs are insanely good demigods in a literal sense of that word. I honestly believe that any one of them could defeat the other in a one on one fight. If you are familiar with R.A. Salvatore and his Drizzt series please follow this example.

 

There is one duel between Drizzt and his arch nemesis (later friend) Artemis Entreri where Drizzt tells him that they are so equally balanced against each other that one random event like a loose pebble under a foot or sunlight reflecting off a  blade is the only thing that could truly decide a fight between them.  When I look at the primarchs and especially the fan fights between "My primarch daddy can beat your primarch daddy!" my mind always goes back to that example.

 

For everyone that points out how Angron is the largest and strongest, there's someone like Lion with exemplary skill with a sword. Or Russ and his controlled berserk fury. Or Mortarion and his ability to withstand a crap ton of damage and win through endurance. Then you have Fulgrim, in this case getting run down by some posters here, that's always been described as the fastest of all primarchs. Brought up on a world where sword fighting is both art and fighting style. A primarch dedicated to sword fighting with his Legion, the Emperor's Children, expressly stated in HH lore as being the best swordsmen in all the Legions.

 

If you think Fulgrim couldn't win a fight against any other primarch, well, I don't know what to tell you. This is both regular primarch Fulgrim and demon enhanced Fulgrim.

 

Any primarch could beat another if the circumstances are correct. As for winning in one strike? The samurai of feudal Japan practiced endlessly the skill of quick draw. They could literally take out a sheathed sword and behead someone quicker than the opponent (depending on skill) could even raise a katana to defend themselves. So if you think someone like Fulgrim on a world with a huge sword fighting culture wouldn't have mastered the quick draw? I don't know what to tell you.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Definitely agree, Bulwyf. I'm reminded of the numerous posts A D-B has made about this very topic after he wrote the Night Haunter/Lion fight, with the view that "every Primarch can kill every other Primarch, it just depends on the circumstances". He'd shown this by his numerous fights between Lion and the Night Haunter, with different outcomes each time, with the Night Haunter not being worth a damn as a sword-fighter/honorable duellist compared to the Lion, but if it turns into a brawl? Curze is going to rip chunks out of him. 

[b1soul]

@ Lord_Caerolian

 

"I'm reminded of the numerous posts A D-B has made about this very topic after he wrote the Night Haunter/Lion fight, with the view that 'every Primarch can kill every other Primarch, it just depends on the circumstances'."

 

I generally agree here...in the sense that no primarch has a zero percent chance of beating another in a duel.

 

There's the concept of odds. For instance, I don't like the odds of most primarchs against Angron in a duel. We know that Angron is an exceptional 1 on 1 close combat beast, even among the rarefied superhuman company of the primarchs.

 

"He'd shown this by his numerous fights between Lion and the Night Haunter, with different outcomes each time, with the Night Haunter not being worth a damn as a sword-fighter/honorable duellist compared to the Lion, but if it turns into a brawl? Curze is going to rip chunks out of him."

 

Gav, not ADB, actually had the Lion get down and dirty with Curze..."brawling" him before breaking his back.

 

@ Phoebus

 

"The thing about Guilliman as a "bean counter" is that it's about as apropos and accurate as the "Failbaddon" meme."

 

It's an, IIRC, in-universe jab at Guilliman by Curze. It does aptly capture Guilliman's administrative predilections...but no one is saying it means Guilliman is weak or below-average (for a primarch) at melee.

 

I've set forth my reasons why certain "swordmaster" primarchs, the Khan in particular, probably have the edge over him in single combat. This is my informed opinion.

 

Anyone familiar with my post history would know that I'm far from biased against Guilliman.

[DuskRaider]

I've heard rumor that Khan may meet his end at Terra, at the hands of Mortarion no less. I'm not sure if there's any credence to that since the Siege itself is probably a year or two off anyhow but reading this topic made me think back to that.

[b1soul]

Probably has something to do with Yesugei's vision in Scars.

 

However, The Last Hunt strongly hints Khan had entered the Webway

[Warpmiss]

I took Yesugei's vision as just the overshadowing the duel at the end of Scars or even the future one on Terra since we are told that The Khan will go into the Webway on other places.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

On the IA:AL note, i as always want to point out that that entire article is hinted at being an in universe fabrication. There's no way of knowing if Eskrador actually happened, much less the way recounted, short of someone asking Guilliman.

[carlisimo]

I've heard rumor that Khan may meet his end at Terra, at the hands of Mortarion no less. I'm not sure if there's any credence to that since the Siege itself is probably a year or two off anyhow but reading this topic made me think back to that.

That dream comes up at least twice in Scars. Towards the end when Yesugei and the Khan speak, it’s:

 

“I saw you fighting. A spectre of the underworld, on a world of ruins.’

‘You saw Mortarion.’

Yesugei looked uneasy. ‘I do not know. In my dreams, you were slain.”

 

But earlier in the book when Yesugei is alone it’s described as:

“...the Khan in the land of the dead, duelling with some vast creature of null-light, alone under a starless sky,” with an admonition that his dream-visions were not to be taken literally.

 

That makes it sound more like the Webway. And while BL could decide to kill him, it’d change the victory at the Lion’s Gate spaceport, change the nature of the White Scars in subsequent millennia, and also affect the scene in which Dorn returns with the Emperor’s body. I don’t think it likely.

[DuskRaider]

Truthfully, it sounds like he's fighting one of the C'Tan.