The less used weapons at our disposal

[Azaiel]

Hello again fellow Xenoshunters!

 

While putting together some kill teams and rummaging thru my weapon bitz. I started to look at what weapons we have available to us.

Are there weapons and combinations which are bad or  a definitive no no?

 

I havent seen any usage of the Grav-gun/Gravpistol for instance, or the combination of Powerfist and Boltgun. I understand why no one would pick a regular meltagun instead of combi-melta same for the Plasmagun.

 

What are your thoughts on the less used weapons?

[Halandaar]

Regarding Grav Guns, it's basically because Plasma Guns are the better weapon in the vast majority of situations, and an equivalent choice in most of the others. There are only two specific scenarios in which Grav is better than Plasma; 

1. Against T4, 3+ save (or better), multi-wound models, where the extra strength of the Plasma isn't sufficient to make the wound-roll better, and the Grav has the extra damage potential.
2. Against anything with a toughness of 8 or 9 with 3+ armour and multiple wounds, where both weapons are equally ineffective (wounding on 5's) but extra damage from the Grav Gun is superior to the 1 damage per hit from Plasma.

On top of that, Grav is only better in these specific situations against "normal" Plasma. If you Overcharge the Plasma Guns, they become the better option, because they wound more often than the Grav Guns and their guaranteed 2 damage per wound is statistically equivalent to the Grav Gun's 1-3 potential damage range. Sure there's the chance to lose a guy by rolling a 1 to hit with Overcharged Plasma, but it's easily countered with a nearby Captain. Now consider that Plasma Guns are both longer range AND cheaper. That's why nobody takes Grav Guns.

 

Grav Cannons, however, are a different matter.

[Mobius0288]

I'd say... it depends, honestly. You could build your teams different ways and still get use out of some of those weapons. I use a grav pistol on my Capt for example.

 

I'd say the definite no-no's right now are the inferno pistol and flamers. Inferno pistols cost way too much for their capability (melta gun is cheaper and more range) and the the combi-flamer is literally two more points then regular flamers.

[mjrwaud]

Personally, I wish there was a little more use for the shotgun... the xenopurge slugs at short range are pretty good (S4, AP -1, Damage 2) but otherwise they're not that great. Maybe we'll see a stratagem for them whenever the codex comes out.

 

Same for the infernus heavy bolter? I sometimes put one or two in stationary stalker bolter squads, but am torn between them or missile launchers.

 

As for inferno pistols, it's true they're -very- expensive but maybe they'd be useful on a real monster/character killing CC unit. For example, a jump pack watch captain with thunder hammer + inferno pistol gets all the thunder hammer hits + can shoot the inferno in CC... very expensive, but possibly very effective (although maybe overcharged plasma pistol is a better value).

[Vel'Cona]

Personally, I wish there was a little more use for the shotgun... the xenopurge slugs at short range are pretty good (S4, AP -1, Damage 2) but otherwise they're not that great. Maybe we'll see a stratagem for them whenever the codex comes out.

 

Same for the infernus heavy bolter? I sometimes put one or two in stationary stalker bolter squads, but am torn between them or missile launchers.

 

As for inferno pistols, it's true they're -very- expensive but maybe they'd be useful on a real monster/character killing CC unit. For example, a jump pack watch captain with thunder hammer + inferno pistol gets all the thunder hammer hits + can shoot the inferno in CC... very expensive, but possibly very effective (although maybe overcharged plasma pistol is a better value).

 

The shotgun had a place until the nerfs came down in 8th.  Now they're just not worth the trouble compared to SIA Boltguns.  The IHB comes up all the time around here, and the consensus is it's overpriced and the awkward nature of both weapons leaves it relatively pointless.  The additional mobility is probably the best part of the weapon, though I'd rather just take a second HB in a unit and just soak the move and fire penalties.  Finally, the Inferno Pistol is a nice idea but the cost is ridiculously prohibitive considering we can just take an actual Meltagun with little issue elsewhere in the list.  Ultimately, running two PP is probably better bang for your buck, especially since Supercharging with a nearby Watch Captain/Master is a thing.

[LunarSol]

There’s no extra mobility anymore. Of the many dw nerfs in 8th the heavy Bolter half is heavy 3 now instead of assault. It’s just a bad, confusing weapon now.

[Moostick]

There’s no extra mobility anymore. Of the many dw nerfs in 8th the heavy Bolter half is heavy 3 now instead of assault. It’s just a bad, confusing weapon now.

 

You can even say it's...hot garbage.

 

I'll see myself out. (But yes, pretty much IHB)

[Azaiel]

Many thanks for the input gents!

 

So I´ll concentrate on making some combi-plasma and got a pair of missile launchers to complement my fragger boys. I do have a regular heavy bolter but I´ll wait using it until we get our codex. I havent played 40k since 3rd edition and so much has changed since then.

[Vel'Cona]

 

So I´ll concentrate on making some combi-plasma and got a pair of missile launchers to complement my fragger boys. I do have a regular heavy bolter but I´ll wait using it until we get our codex. I havent played 40k since 3rd edition and so much has changed since then.

 

Mostly for the better; I feel like 8th really is much easier to introduce new/returning players to and has a much broader range of competitive strategies (at least at the local level), with plenty of viable armies out there.  DW can be challenge since we're expensive and don't have a codex (YET) but I'd come to the table with an open mind and definitely look for a player that's willing to "start from scratch" and teach you the game.  Good luck and welcome back to 40k!

[MadEdric]

I've some questions about a few weapon options I just can't seem to find worth in.

1: Heavy Thunder hammer. I can get a thunder hammer and storm shield for much less than the cost of one of these weapons. Why would I ever use the heavy thunder hammer over a TH/SS combo?

2: Infernus Heavy Bolter. Far too expensive and at odds with itself over what roll it should be. I'm just taking a couple of heavy bolters instead and haven't missed the heavy flamer portion at all.

3: DW shotguns. Perhaps if they were free, I'd use them in one squad. As is, paying SIA tax on my vets and then paying an additional SIA tax for the shotguns seems like a waste. 

 

Also, since combi-weapons can't use SIA, it becomes hard to justify using them. I doubt I'd ever use the bolter portion of a combi-plasma, perhaps a combi-melta, never giving up SIA for a combi-flamer.

So basically use plasmaguns, combi-meltas, and never use any flamer type (we have frag cannons for that).

 

What am I missing here?

[spacewatch]

I've some questions about a few weapon options I just can't seem to find worth in.

1: Heavy Thunder hammer. I can get a thunder hammer and storm shield for much less than the cost of one of these weapons. Why would I ever use the heavy thunder hammer over a TH/SS combo?

2: Infernus Heavy Bolter. Far too expensive and at odds with itself over what roll it should be. I'm just taking a couple of heavy bolters instead and haven't missed the heavy flamer portion at all.

3: DW shotguns. Perhaps if they were free, I'd use them in one squad. As is, paying SIA tax on my vets and then paying an additional SIA tax for the shotguns seems like a waste. 

 

Also, since combi-weapons can't use SIA, it becomes hard to justify using them. I doubt I'd ever use the bolter portion of a combi-plasma, perhaps a combi-melta, never giving up SIA for a combi-flamer.

So basically use plasmaguns, combi-meltas, and never use any flamer type (we have frag cannons for that).

 

What am I missing here?

 

1. After CA cost reductions for TH&SS the HTH is practically obsolete. I have removed HTH's entirely from my army.

2. Maybe if DW IHB's gets SIA then IHB might become worth trying. Currently, not worth the points.

3. Actually DW shotguns are not that bad when comparing to SIA bolter. Re-roll profile is just slightly worse than SIA/Hellfire against horde but D2 profile is clearly better than SIA when shooting W2+ models. Shotguns are expensive yes, but if you combine 4 shotguns with 2 frag cannons and some storm shields you get quite handy and effective assault squad.

 

I too always choose combi-melta because boltgun gives extra shots when shooting overwatch.

[mjrwaud]

I've some questions about a few weapon options I just can't seem to find worth in.

1: Heavy Thunder hammer. I can get a thunder hammer and storm shield for much less than the cost of one of these weapons. Why would I ever use the heavy thunder hammer over a TH/SS combo?

2: Infernus Heavy Bolter. Far too expensive and at odds with itself over what roll it should be. I'm just taking a couple of heavy bolters instead and haven't missed the heavy flamer portion at all.

3: DW shotguns. Perhaps if they were free, I'd use them in one squad. As is, paying SIA tax on my vets and then paying an additional SIA tax for the shotguns seems like a waste. 

 

Also, since combi-weapons can't use SIA, it becomes hard to justify using them. I doubt I'd ever use the bolter portion of a combi-plasma, perhaps a combi-melta, never giving up SIA for a combi-flamer.

So basically use plasmaguns, combi-meltas, and never use any flamer type (we have frag cannons for that).

 

What am I missing here?

 

 

I'm still a fan of the shotgun, but they have to be in a killteam tailored to confronting multi-wound units up close.

 

Has there been an errata stating that combi-weapons cannot use SIA? 

Edited February 14, 2018 by mjrwaud

[Vel'Cona]

 

I'm still a fan of the shotgun, but they have to be in a killteam tailored to confronting multi-wound units up close.

 

Has there been an errata stating that combi-weapons cannot use SIA?

 

AFAIK combi-weapons absolutely get SIA.  There hasn't been any errata to date specifically denying this, at the very least.

[mjrwaud]

 

 

I'm still a fan of the shotgun, but they have to be in a killteam tailored to confronting multi-wound units up close.

 

Has there been an errata stating that combi-weapons cannot use SIA?

 

AFAIK combi-weapons absolutely get SIA.  There hasn't been any errata to date specifically denying this, at the very least.

 

 

I thought that was the case, which makes combi-weapons quite good... including combi-plasma (2 SIA bolter + 2 plasma shots in rapid fire range @ -1 to hit).

 

Back to the topic of less commonly used weapons, does anyone use heavy flamers or cyclone missle launchers on terminators? I also don't see lightning claws used too frequently... any thoughts?

[infyrana]

Looking ahead, as a result of these sorts of discussions, does anyone foresee any major weapon changes for the DW? I am hoping for only improvements.

[Vel'Cona]

The problem for Terminators in Kill Teams is most folks feel that they're tanks first.  The CML is fancy but it's ridiculously expensive and you can get similar utility by just taking more PA MLs.  If you're taking the Termies on their own, a mix of TH/SS and LCs is a good idea for pure assault (say from DS or deploying from a Corvus), though for shooting purposes I feel like a PA Kill Team offers more flexibility.  I am not a fan of HF in general since they can't be used out of DS and are easy for the opponent to circumvent when assaulting (being (9" away or more).

[MadEdric]

 

I'm still a fan of the shotgun, but they have to be in a killteam tailored to confronting multi-wound units up close.

 

Has there been an errata stating that combi-weapons cannot use SIA?

 

 

AFAIK combi-weapons absolutely get SIA.  There hasn't been any errata to date specifically denying this, at the very least.

Hmmm, I was of the mind that combi-weapons do not get SIA, but looking at Artemis, he has a combi-flamer and does get SIA.

[6262]

I haven't tried it yet but I'm considering trying a squad of truly insanity 3x (CML + PF w/melta) and the rest of the squad being vets with Storm shields and bolters but the 300+ points for terminators alone has me gun-shy. Cause I can't imagine it being worth anything close to the points involved

[Xisor]

My gut & head says that PF/Melta with the CML is just doubling up for no great gain. In any sensible sized army, you'd be as well taking even more Terminators, but splitting out the PF/Melta folks into separate squads (perhaps with more meltaguns/Storm Shields in support from the veterans)?.

 

But getting CMLs in in bulk doesn't seem inherently wasteful, especially if you're playing really aggressively. And yet, the attraction of a few vets with Missile Launchers & Stalkers sitting back still feels good.

 

Nevertheless, I'd be pretty hyped with it for all that. It sounds fun, which if you can get access people who are happy to Open War and/or Power Level, then there's a fair chance you could fill your boots with all sorts of daft options and have a lot of fun games!

[mjrwaud]

Thinking about it, Deathwatch are really susceptible to a "flexibility" tax... we have a tremendous number of options but can easily fall into the (often mentioned) gear trap instead of going for "boys before toys". The Melta-fist/CML terminator combo might be the best example of a gear trap, a terminator with that setup has a bit of everything... light-target fire (stormbolter/frag missles), hard-target fire (melta/krak missles), melee (power-fist), great light-fire save (2+), only having a vulnerability to high-ap / multi-wound weapons. So, it makes sense that they'd be very expensive (although maybe not -as- expensive as the are)... if they were cheap, why would you take anything else? Power armour vets are more / flexible options than terminators, but also pay less of that flexibility tax if kept specialized.

 

Deathwatch should be a force of specialists (thematically at least), so it seems that making a kill team should be all about picking each model to do one job (and do it very well) and not a little bit of everything... that's a trap I -definitely- fell into when starting, trying to make kill teams to deal with any situation (but doing none of them well).

Bringing it back to the original topic, how do we fit those infrequently used weapons into specialized kill teams?

Is it worth it?

Shotguns... rarely seem worth it?
Infernus heavy bolter... pay the tax by trying to do too much at the same time?
CML... maybe good if kept on a bare-bones terminator (CML/stormbolter/powersword) in a stalker/missile kill team?
Heavy Thunder hammer... just not much benefit over a normal thunder hammer for the price?

Edited February 20, 2018 by mjrwaud

[spacewatch]

...

Shotguns... rarely seem worth it?

Infernus heavy bolter... pay the tax by trying to do too much at the same time?

CML... maybe good if kept on a bare-bones terminator (CML/stormbolter/powersword) in a stalker/missile kill team?

Heavy Thunder hammer... just not much benefit over a normal thunder hammer for the price?

 

If we assume that target is MEQ then, compared to SIA Boltgun, Shotgun is:

- 16"-24/30": useless because ...well no range :)

- 15"-16": better because of extra shot and re-roll wounds

- 12"-15": same because boltgun is in rapid fire range using kraken

-  9"-12": worse/practically same because hellfires wound slightly better

-  1"-9": worse because vengeance is clearly better

-  1"-8": better IF shooting multiwound models because of D2 damage.

So in practice Shotgun is ok only if you plan to shoot multiwound models up close as you said earlier or plan to use them in heavy assault team (shotguns + frag cannons) that runs/advances all the time.

 

I feel CML-Storm Bolter-Meltafist Terminator is very cool looking model and interesting concept. I rarely use this configuration but simple calculation reveals that in order to get the same firepower we need to buy two ML-Vets and one Meltagun-Powerfist Vet which together cost more than that CML-...-Termie. If we extend that Vet group to full team and compare that to CML-...-Termie+basic Vet team then Veteran team is cheaper. However, if we add another CML-...-Termie and try to make same firepower using Vets then Termie team becomes cheaper. Termie team also has more ablative wounds before firepower begins to decrease (assuming Vet team buys Storm Bolters too). I find it funny that we use Termies to protect our Kill Teams but in this case Veterans protect very expensive Termies :) Earlier I used CML Termie to increase ML-Stalker team's effectiveness but when I started deploying ML-Stalker team inside TLC-Razorback Termie had to leave.

 

I'm sorry I cannot see any useful use for IHB and HTH ...except making cool looking models :)

[6262]

The way I personally conceive of using 3x terminator point sinks would be yanking them forward with the beacon to one flank (with a homing beacon to sick them back if needed) trying to unload the 3 meltaguns into the closest vehicle or monster and then the Krak missiles to anything they can see. The stormbolter is just gravy but those 3 models will be closely followed by an apothecary because anything that might keep returning them to play will go a long way to justifying them. (Despite the sheer idiocy and the points black hole this squad will occupy)

[mjrwaud]

 

...

If we assume that target is MEQ then, compared to SIA Boltgun, Shotgun is:

- 16"-24/30": useless because ...well no range

- 15"-16": better because of extra shot and re-roll wounds

- 12"-15": same because boltgun is in rapid fire range using kraken

-  9"-12": worse/practically same because hellfires wound slightly better

-  1"-9": worse because vengeance is clearly better

-  1"-8": better IF shooting multiwound models because of D2 damage.

So in practice Shotgun is ok only if you plan to shoot multiwound models up close as you said earlier or plan to use them in heavy assault team (shotguns + frag cannons) that runs/advances all the time.

 

I feel CML-Storm Bolter-Meltafist Terminator is very cool looking model and interesting concept. I rarely use this configuration but simple calculation reveals that in order to get the same firepower we need to buy two ML-Vets and one Meltagun-Powerfist Vet which together cost more than that CML-...-Termie. If we extend that Vet group to full team and compare that to CML-...-Termie+basic Vet team then Veteran team is cheaper. However, if we add another CML-...-Termie and try to make same firepower using Vets then Termie team becomes cheaper. Termie team also has more ablative wounds before firepower begins to decrease (assuming Vet team buys Storm Bolters too). I find it funny that we use Termies to protect our Kill Teams but in this case Veterans protect very expensive Termies Earlier I used CML Termie to increase ML-Stalker team's effectiveness but when I started deploying ML-Stalker team inside TLC-Razorback Termie had to leave.

 

I'm sorry I cannot see any useful use for IHB and HTH ...except making cool looking models

 

 

Thanks for the great analysis!

 

Indeed, the shotgun's utility becomes clearer when broken down by range. Evidently it's best used as a specialist tool for a specific task (assaulting multi-wound and low save targets up cllose), just like the deathwatch members themselves should be.

 

Also great breakdown on the CML/Meltafist terminator, it does really shift the role of the terminator from bullet sponge to heavy weapon platform... although in that role I'd still prefer to keep them away from the front lines and thus out of usable range for the melta, just dropping it to the cheapest option (power sword).

 

Cost breakdown:

Veteran (19) + Missle launcher (25) = 44 (X 2 = 88)

Terminator (32) + Cyclone Missle Launcher (50) + Power sword (4) + Storm bolter (2) = 88 

 

Unless my math is way off (it's early so it honestly might be), which would you rather have?

 

I love the heavy thunder hammer (I've got at least 8 models equipped with them), but it's never the best tool for the job, when in a Deathwatch force it really needs a specific niche to be worth it.

[spacewatch]

 

 

...

 

Thanks for the great analysis!

 

Indeed, the shotgun's utility becomes clearer when broken down by range. Evidently it's best used as a specialist tool for a specific task (assaulting multi-wound and low save targets up cllose), just like the deathwatch members themselves should be.

 

You're welcome Yeah, not too many WH40k players here where I live so plenty of time to analyse, calculate probabilities and playtest for various scenarios. Regarding Shotguns I'd like to add

- overwatch: against MEQ Shotgun is as good (1 shot) or better (2+ shots) than Boltgun

and also fact that

- against S4Sv3+ (MEQ) vengeance is 33% better than Shotgun but

- against S4Sv4-6+ Boltgun is only 11% better than Shotgun so

Shotgun is "nearly" comparable to Boltgun overall ...except that boltgun is free which or course makes it better.

 

 

 

 

...

 

,,,

 

Cost breakdown:

Veteran (19) + Missle launcher (25) = 44 (X 2 = 88)

Terminator (32) + Cyclone Missle Launcher (50) + Power sword (4) + Storm bolter (2) = 88 

 

Unless my math is way off (it's early so it honestly might be), which would you rather have?

 

ML-Vets or CML-Termie, that's a good question. For kitchen table size games I'd choose Termie but for normal games I'd choose ML-Vet(s) because of better range (turn 1 shooting/damage is crucial for Deathwatch).

 

Speaking of lesser used weapons what do you think of Storm Bolter? It is cheap but rarely seen on game table (except Termies and some Characters). I don't understand why because at long range (>12") it's better (not much) than SIA everywhere (except when shooting kraken at 12"-15") and at close range (<12") it is better than SIA, Shotgun and even Plasma Pistol (except when shooting vengeance against MEQ/TEQ). Is it the extra cost or is it T5+ models or something else?

Edited February 21, 2018 by spacewatch

[mjrwaud]

Some more good info on shotguns, I must admit I'm biased towards them simply for appearance's sake...

 

With their efficacy on overwatch, it is worthwhile using them in objective holding kill teams? I imagine a shotgun / frag cannon kill team in cover with a few storm shields thrown in being a pretty tough nut to crack.

 

Ah yeah, the better range on the ML would definitely be better for big games.

 

Re. the storm bolter? I think they're great and I feel like they got a huge buff from 7E. You're totally right that they're not seen very often... from a personal perspective I don't use them often for a pretty irrational reason, the fact that they can't use SIA bugs me (even if they'd probably be -too- good if they could). On the other hand,  I just imagined the kind of budget havoc you could cause with a deep striking / beacon'd 10 man kill team all equipped with storm bolters (2 pts).

Edited February 25, 2018 by mjrwaud