Centurions: Strike from the Shadows Inquiry

[Race Bannon]

Good point: the Assault Centurions seem to have more "value" for the points versus the Dev Cents (iirc).

[ShinyRhino]

That's because their siege drills are free. You're not tacking on 50+ points right off the bat.

Hurricanes and flamers are awesome for the unit to clear screens guarding HVTs.

 

Alternatively, melta and assault launchers to put wounds on big things while being relatively cheap.

[Race Bannon]

Ya, that's literal savings. I meant at a existential level :P

[9x19 Parabellum]

If you could get your Cents to SftS to an area where they are in cover against all attacks and have LOS blockage against at least some attacks, that could work. T5 with 1+ save in cover is pretty tough to get rid of, especially if you can not be shot at by his big guns. 

 

As someone else said, though, Cents with StfS has a great psychological affect on your opponent so it may be worth it just for that, and then deploy them normally in your backfield when the time comes to put them on the table.

 

All in all, though like others said, the Centurion basic statline is just ALL KINDS of borked.

 

Compare the Cent to a Termie. He comes in at a whopping 54 POINTS HIGHER and gets, in return;

-1 move

+1 Str (of little use if you're taking shooty Cents)

+1 Tough

+1 Wound

 

+Omniscope

+Decimator Protocols

-Invuln Save

-Teleport Strike

-Teleport Homer

 

Now it's certainly not a wash...The Centurion comes out ahead when you look at the whole package. The movement loss hurts, the Str is wasted, the Toughness, Wound, Omniscope and Decimator Strike are all great, though the Termies gain quite a bit in terms of manueverability and speed when you factor in the affects of the Teleport Strike and Homer.

 

Now compare the Centurion base (again, just the base model here, I'm proceeding from the assumption that guns are balanced in their point cost) against a frekking RAZORBACK.

 

This dude is 10 points MORE than a vehicle and gets;

-8" to move

-2 tough

-7 wounds

+1 to save

+Omniscope and Decimator

-Pop Smoke and Transport capacity

 

I'm only comparing the things they have in common, mind you (durability and speed), since the other items (melee attacks) are not really the point of either of these models.

 

Look at that again!  Huge discrepancies in movement and overall durability, yet pays 10 pts more.  I get it, he's infantry and so benefits from chapter tactic and other keyword: infantry stuff the way a vehicle can't.  But seriously, 10 points more than a frekking light tank?  10 points LESS than a PREDATOR MAIN BaTTLE TANK??? Are you kidding?

 

Way overpriced.  These guys needs to be about 55 points, tops.

[Race Bannon]

So say you, so say we all!

 

Serioisly, these are great models that seem to be punished for some reason.

 

Kinda like Terminators <_<

[9x19 Parabellum]

Strike From The Shadows happens after you know who has first turn. However, there is no consensus on whether seize the initiative happens before or after Strike From The Shadows.

...

 

Hey Claws I just read this and realized I had been doing it wrong.  Wow, what an epihpany.

 

But then took note about the "no consensus on whether seize the initiative happens before or after Strike from the Shadows"

 

So I went and made this handy little pre-game cheat sheet, both to help me answer this question from an informed position, and also as a thing to print and put in my rulebook so I don't have to constantly flip to the mission. Here's what I came up with for order of operations:

 

1. Players agree on points limit.

2. Build Army.

3. Setup battlefield with terrain.

4. Setup 6 objective markers.

    a. Players roll off; highest die sets up first first objective.

    b. Players then alternate until 6 are place. 6" from edge/12" from each other.

5. Player who placed last objective rolls for battlefield map and picks deployment zone.

    a. Their opponent takes other deployment zone.

6. Players alternate deploying units 1 at a time, starting with player who did NOT pick deployment zone.

7. Whoever finished setting up first gets first turn (or gets +1 to die roll for first turn, depending on rules style, ITC, etc.)

    a. Opposing player can attempt to seize the initiative by rolling a "6" on a d6.

8. Begin Battle Round 1.

    a. Player 1 Turn 1.

    b. Player 2 Turn 1.

9. Repeat step 8 until game concludes.

 

SftS wording reads as:

"At the beginning of first BATTLE ROUND, but before the FIRST TURN begins...."

 

So it seems to me that at any point in the "green" area highlighted above is when the RG player has to put out their StfS units.

 

What's the argument that it would happen between step 7 and 7a?

[ShinyRhino]

There's really no argument with any merit that it happens between 7 and 7a. You lined it up perfectly. Mechanicus and Alpha Legion players around here agree.

[Race Bannon]

The challenge is selecting the units to use this CT.

[9x19 Parabellum]

The challenge is selecting the units to use this CT.

 

Hrm. I'd say the bigger challenge is selecting units to StfS that you can leverage regardless of whether or not you get first or second turn.

[Dracos]

 

So this 

 

 ... comes from the Master of the Forge website and looks like it's within my conversion skills, that I'm strongly considering trying it out as a "Primaris" <counts as>. I think the first conversion will be for a character HQ wearing the Chapter's Armour Indomitus. Then if I like how it turns out or for the love of Emperor somone listens to Ishagu and they eventually price Centurions fairly I'll slap together a unit of five (because units of three don't work for me).

 

There's no way I can prep this kind of unit conversion in time, so please Race no more ideas like this until after ETL 

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

The challenge is selecting the units to use this CT.

Hrm. I'd say the bigger challenge is selecting units to StfS that you can leverage regardless of whether or not you get first or second turn.

I like the idea of a Captain as Warlord with the close combat trait and Teeth of Terra supported by 5 Company Vets with storm bolters and chainswords and a Librarian dropping Might of Heroes on him.

[9x19 Parabellum]

So, the new BIG Faq is out, and it seems now clear beyond any shadow of a doubt that SftS units DO NOT count as reserves or reinforcements.

 

Quote:

 

"Note that we have not applied this restriction to Genestealer Cults or abilities and Stratagems employed by armies such as Raven Guard – the opportunity to deploy units en masse after deployment is a central part of the design of these armies."

 

EDIT.

 

Ok after re-reading the new TACTICAL RESERVES Ruling, I'm inclined to change my opinion here a bit. We DO count as tactical resevers for the "1/2 units and 1/2 total power level must be on table!" ruling but NOT for the "inside your deployment zone" ruling.

[MeltaRange]

So, the new BIG Faq is out, and it seems now clear beyond any shadow of a doubt that SftS units DO NOT count as reserves or reinforcements.

 

Quote:

 

"Note that we have not applied this restriction to Genestealer Cults or abilities and Stratagems employed by armies such as Raven Guard – the opportunity to deploy units en masse after deployment is a central part of the design of these armies."

 

I actually read that as that it's simply an exception to the new rule that units from reserves coming in turn 1 need to be deployed in your deployment zone. (because it's before the game, not Turn 1)  Not that it was reserves or not.  I'll have to give it another look.

[Dracos]

I’m with 9x19. Its an exception because it was never intended to be in the same category to begin with.

[MeltaRange]

At this point, I pretty strongly believe that units affected by SftS count as tactical reserves, because they are not placed "during deployment" and are instead "arrive on the battlefield mid game" 

 

Both the phrases in quotes are directly from the Tactical Reserves rule.   

[Dracos]

EDIT.

 

Ok after re-reading the new TACTICAL RESERVES Ruling, I'm inclined to change my opinion here a bit. We DO count as tactical resevers for the "1/2 units and 1/2 total power level must be on table!" ruling but NOT for the "inside your deployment zone" ruling.

This ... which actually sounds like both sides of this discussion have been at least partial right :)

 

Now ... if you play points and not PL, then what? Back to units I assume?

[9x19 Parabellum]

No, I think the Power Level restriction is there IN ADDITION to the #units restriction, regardless of which style of army generation you go with.

[Aothaine]

No, I think the Power Level restriction is there IN ADDITION to the #units restriction, regardless of which style of army generation you go with.

 

Agreed. Which means you need to have the PL of every unit as well as points. Need to update my lists that I have saved.

[Dracos]

Ugh. That’s going to be a headache to redistribute. Most the good stuff pays points for going in Reserve and now it’s limited by points?

 

Meh :) New challenges ;)

[Race Bannon]

Are we still talking about Centurions and SftS?  Asking for a friend ;)

 

 I believe more broad discussions should move to somewhere more noticeable.  Because ... Centurions.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Ok let's bring it back around.  Putting 3 centurions into SftS means you need to have 16-19 POWER RATING of units NOT in tactical reserves (that means not also in SftS, Jump Pack, or in a Transport.)

 

Thus, it's going to take some commitment to get your centurions into StfS.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Ok let's bring it back around.  Putting 3 centurions into SftS means you need to have 16-19 POWER RATING of units NOT in tactical reserves (that means not also in SftS, Jump Pack, or in a Transport.)

 

Thus, it's going to take some commitment to get your centurions into StfS.

This is the biggie

 

I was considering starting a new thread regarding balancing the new Beta deployment rules against our typical strategies (changes in Unit count vs Power level)

 

Edit: Hi 

[MeltaRange]

Another idea could be to take Dev Centurions and actually place them, to give yourself a huge 19 PL on the table. (so you can SftS more other units)

[9x19 Parabellum]

Another idea could be to take Dev Centurions and actually place them, to give yourself a huge 19 PL on the table. (so you can SftS more other units)

 

It's still only 1 unit though...you have to meet 2 criteria for tactical reserves, # units AND Power level.  1 unit of 5 scouts will not unlock 1 unit of 3 Devastator centurions.

[Race Bannon]

Dear Emperor ... true mathhammer.