Strike from the Shadows - What to hide?

[SyNidus]

So after a little RG burn out, i've been toying with some builds and i've come to the conclusion that i need to relook at what i can and should use our chapter stratagem for.

 

Personally, i've been using it to get 2 big vanguard veteran squads right up close turn 1. And while this works beautifully if i end up going first...if i don't then i've got a unit that has just been shot to bits and is in a much weakened state going in.

 

Then i thought about Aggressors. In fact i'm still thinking about them because a squad of 6 of them is so cheap! But my meta has a lot of eldar. A savvy eldar player would use the Phantasm stratagem to shift the important parts of his army to the other side of the board and now the aggressors have to slog it across the field. That being said, i'm still considering them.

 

The other option that occurred to me is a blob of devastators with the banner. Perhaps 3 squads of lascannons? Infiltrated midfield to give them a commanding field of fire. With the banner it means that i've got a good chance to shot them at least once, even if i go second. But there are weaknesses here too. If i'm not careful they'll be too far forward and are vulnerable to being assaulted.

 

Hellblasters are another option, similar to the devastators but a little sturdier. They however lack lascannons.

 

So that's where i stand, still considering various options.

[Jacques Corbin]

For me, it Solaq (Captain w/ Plasma Pistol and Power Sword), Company Veterans w/ Plasma Gun and Chainsword, and an Apothecary. The Captain allows the vets and himself to reroll 1s, so fire that Plasma turned up to 11. The vets get 3 swings each with their Chainswords, 4 on the Sergeant, and they can intercept wounds for the Captain or Apothecary. The Apothecary revives any of them on a 4+, or heals the Captain of some wounds. They are fun to pop up near an enemy flank, and give their deployment a bald spot.

[duz_]

Aggressors love go StfS usually with VVs. ;)

My biggest issue was that I'd do that with 4 separate units burning most my CPs before T1.

 

I do like the idea of devs using it too so they can pick a good vantage point to rain hellfire and las down on everyone. ;)

[Dracos]

As always it depends on your total army set up. Example. If you're using Scouts, Reivers and Interceptors then you probably only be using 3 strategems for the other parts of your army. 

 

I'd suggest a Captain and squad of Hellblasters. Set them in cover 18" away and in cover. From that point a lot depends on the dice and your opponents decisions but I'm betting your giving them a whole lot of bad decisions to choose from at that point.

[Aothaine]

My current list drops 3 squads of six Aggressors and then deep strikes 3 inceptor squads of three with the plasma exterminators. The idea is that the Aggressors clear all the chaff and anything else that might pose a threat to the Inceptors and then the inceptors come in to tackle harder targets.

 

Dropping units like Aggressors in that close so early can be dangerous. That is why if you are dropping units like them in then you want to drop them mid-board ish so they won't have to move far to unleash hell if they have to move at all. But I'm only us Primaris. If you are using non-primaris units you have a lot more options. I've been thinking about dropping max sized Hell Blasters with a captain as well. Something really punchy but has enough models to survive a beating. 

[Claws and Effect]

With that many Aggressors you're banking on them doing most of their work in the first 2 turns, anyway.

[Dracos]

With that many Aggressors you're banking on them doing most of their work in the first 2 turns, anyway.

Agreed :) It's a dangerous but gutsy play. I like it. Takes cahones to put your eggs in a basket like that. Reminds me of when Grey Knights first came out. Deep Strike was your greatest friend ... and enemy, depending on how the dice deviated the squads landing zone.

[SyNidus]

I've been working on an idea. One of the weaknesses of SftS is that if you don't get first turn, you're gonna either have to place them in a defensive position (possibly leaving them to be unable to shoot or do their job next turn. Or they will be in harms way and get shot down on turn 1.

 

So the answer to this is we have to infiltrate an Ancient as well.

 

This is the SftS package i'm thinking:

Co. Ancient - Relic Banner - 63

Hellblasters - 7 man - Incinerators - 231

Aggressors - 5 man - Boltstorm - 185

 

This is supported by scouts, and next turn i'll have deepstriking Inceptors coming in. What do you guys think?

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Here are three ways to use SFTS that have worked well for me.  

 

1.  Midfield Tac Squad Objective Thievery.    With this option you just dump a couple of tacs on midfield objectives before the game even starts.  With a bit of maelstrom card luck you can build big leads in points without doing much.  You can even plan this out during objective placement by putting objectives in well covered or blocked off areas in the mid field.  

 

2. The devastator hedge.  Ok with this option you take a deep strike option like vanguard with plasma pistols/powerswords and a drop pod full of something nasty.  Then you use SFTS on a dev squad of grav cannons or plasma cannons.  If you get first turn, you place your grav in the best firing position.  Have Shrike and your other stuff land right next to the grav so they get full rerolls.  Then you get 20 shots of grav in addition to your normal alpha strike.  You could even add a bannerman to this option so you get even more shots when your devs start to die.  If you do not get first turn..then you deploy the grav guys defensively in your deployment zone or somewhere in the midfield.   

 

3.  The plasma tac squad bushwack.  Ok this is a combination option.  You use SFTS on two 5 man tac squads with double plasma.  If you go second... have them sit on midfield objectives.  If you go first, they deploy in rapid fire range(if available) and then you land your other deepstrike stuff near them to give rerolls and do more dmg.  

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I've been working on an idea. One of the weaknesses of SftS is that if you don't get first turn, you're gonna either have to place them in a defensive position (possibly leaving them to be unable to shoot or do their job next turn. Or they will be in harms way and get shot down on turn 1.

 

So the answer to this is we have to infiltrate an Ancient as well.

 

This is the SftS package i'm thinking:

Co. Ancient - Relic Banner - 63

Hellblasters - 7 man - Incinerators - 231

Aggressors - 5 man - Boltstorm - 185

 

This is supported by scouts, and next turn i'll have deepstriking Inceptors coming in. What do you guys think?

Have you thought about gravcannons?  If you face a lot of T4 2W models or T5 models with 3+ saves then grav is great.  Gravcannons are also surprisingly good at clearly chaff if you have rerolls.  Plus, grav is now hipster so you can be Mr Cool for bringing grav back.

[MajorNese]

I'm using grav cannons in the Issobomb, and they do work well against T5 or lower. Full reroll to hit and signum means they can deep strike/move and still hit quite a lot, which would work for SftS too when deploying behind cover. At T6+, the dice gods may make grav rather unpredictable. Sometimes you overkill a Leman Russ in one round, sometimes you fail to wound anything. Which is why overcharging plasma enjoys a higher priority for me, to take care of exactly the targets the grav can't reliably take out. And yes, grav works really well against chaff and characters.

 

Bonus points for having a warlord with Storm of Fire (sorry, Shrike), as AP-3 becomes AP-4 often enough, taking out anything marine/primaris-like, even in cover.

[Race Bannon]

"Tac Bushwack" ... this is a thing now in my gaming lexicon.

 

SanguinaryGuardsman gets a Coke :tu:

[Cordova]

I usually stick to the same thing when StfSing:

 

A captain with a thunder hammer, a squad of Hellblasters and then 1-2 squads of Vanguard.

 

If I go second, I place the Hellblasters in the centre, in cover if possible, with the VV as close as possible with cover. This creates a fairly big footprint which also stomps alpha strikes (alongside my scouts). It also forces the opponent to either focus on this section to remove it - allowing my other reserves etc more time or they have to avoid it.

 

If I go first then, well, they do what you imagine they do...

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

"Tac Bushwack" ... this is a thing now in my gaming lexicon.

 

SanguinaryGuardsman gets a Coke

I love me some brown sugar water.  Best 300 calories anyone could ever ingest.  

[Dracos]

With Inceptors, Reivers, Scouts, Jump Pack troops and HQs I'm finding I seem to only have a couple units left to use SftS on. Is this common or just because of my own particular army list? I have a double battalion in the works and that seems to leave a decent junk of points even after my self-imposed -1 CP choice.

[MajorNese]

Nope, my army choices leave few SftS units too. Mostly hellblasters, and probably midfield units when working without Issodon. Everything else either has range or can deep strike anyway.

[Claws and Effect]

I pretty much always use SFTS on Shrike and his Vanguard escort.

 

Probably on my Aggressors too, but I haven't used them in a game yet. Maybe my Company Vets.

[Dracos]

I was thinking Cameoline would be a better Stratagem for Raven Guard, but I suppose would be OP when combined with SftS.  

 

I've ran some list and apparently the Shadow-Grav Captain and his "command squad" of Aggressors are SftS staples down to 50 PL so far.

[Emerald Death]

As far as what to SFtS, I really enjoy 6 Aggressors and a Chaplain. You could make the argument for a Captain instead but it's a wash to me since I always want to charge first turn. Rerolling 1s and 2s versus just 1s comes up for me more often than mathhammer would say otherwise.

 

Someone beat me to it, but I want to play around with SFtS an Ancient with the relic banner. Works best with 2 units of Aggressors IMO plus a support character. Not sure I like dropping 4CP before my first turn, but that can be super nasty.

 

Aggressors being able to double tap for things like overwatch, Auspex Scan, and ancient banner make them prime candidates for SFtS in the event I don't go first. I prefer the Chaplain with this setup since most opponents will have to charge you rather than shoot at you, which would most likely be a fool's errand.

 

Edited to remove my comment on when SFtS works. I don't want to create anymore confusion on the matter. For what it's worth, I would like for GW to clarify as knowing if you are going first greatly impacts unit selection.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Emerald Death

[duz_]

I have generally played and seen played on various streams that StfS is done after the seize. At which point you definitely know who's going first.

 

The wording isnt clear as usual. However maybe worth sending the FAQ line the question for their revision next month.

[SyNidus]

Just to clarify: SFTS is declared and the CP spent during Deployment. But the models that are in the shadows are deployed at the start of the first Battle Round but before the first player turn begins, i.e. the chance to seize has already come and gone. Personally i think it is very clear. 

BUT lets not get side-tracked. The topic is about what options we have in terms of deploying units via SFTS

The double aggressors is an interesting idea, but i'm personally not sold on the lack of AP that they have. Perhaps 2 6 man Aggressor squads might do the trick.

[duz_]

I too regularly StfS my dual bolter aggressors to much delight and effectiveness. :D

 

Occasionally an opponent will try and deep strike a counter unit to stop them. At which point I activate auspex scan. ;) :D

[TheGoldenThrone]

So after a little RG burn out, i've been toying with some builds and i've come to the conclusion that i need to relook at what i can and should use our chapter stratagem for.

 

Personally, i've been using it to get 2 big vanguard veteran squads right up close turn 1. And while this works beautifully if i end up going first...if i don't then i've got a unit that has just been shot to bits and is in a much weakened state going in.

 

Then i thought about Aggressors. In fact i'm still thinking about them because a squad of 6 of them is so cheap! But my meta has a lot of eldar. A savvy eldar player would use the Phantasm stratagem to shift the important parts of his army to the other side of the board and now the aggressors have to slog it across the field. That being said, i'm still considering them

How do SftS and Phantasm interact? Since both occur "at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins", which happens first?

 

The closest thing I can find in the Core Rules is the "Sequencing" side bar that states the players should Roll Off to determine who gets to choose the order of events.

 

How are the rest of you playing this interaction?

[duz_]

I believe right now its literally all or nothing.

 

Maybe the FAQ will stipulate an I go, you go alternation?

[Race Bannon]

D6 it: StfS = 1-3?