Mortal Wounds are a Problem

[Gentlemanloser]

I've long had the nagging thought that he successor to 7th Editions 'D' Weapons are a problem.  That they are simply too good, versus everything.

 

Last nights game sealed the deal for me and now I'm convinced that Mortal Wounds are a problem.  And the proposed Beta rule for Smite is not an adequate solution.  It's treating a symptom, and not the actual problem itself.

 

The ability to generate Mortal Wounds, globally, not just from Smite, is simply too great for the their potency in game.

 

Last night I faced a team opponent of Nids and TSons.  I had to face Biovores, Malenthropes, Zoanthropes, Ahriman, an Exalted Sorcerer, and a couple of Hellforged Contemptors (Which are a ridiculously broken unit.  24", BS2+ any hit is a Mortal Wound.  Oh look you've kept them in a reroll 1 bubble...).  And the sheer amount of Mortal Wounds I faced was staggering.

 

One of the largest problems surrounding Mortal Wounds is they (like D weapons of old) remove Player Agency.  There is nothing you can do when facing them.  Doesn't matter if you've used durable High Toughness units.  Doesn't matter if you've used Powers or Stratagems to increase Saves or Invulnerable Saves, you simply remove models by the handful.

 

It's another push towards Horde army dominance in 40k, as the only thing you can do is try to stem the tide by getting ultra cheap disposable units targeted and removed instead.  But then things like Biovorses and Hellforged Contemptors can shoot past cheap screens anyway.

 

If Mortal Wounds stay as globally powerful as they currently are, then the ability to spam them needs to be vastly reduced.

 

I hope the balance pass recognises this, and isn't blinded by focusing on Smite as the be all and end all.

[Wargamer]

It seems to me that Mortal Wounds exist to counter the invun spam that became the norm 2-3 Editions back. GW still seems on the fence about how saves work - they have save modifiers now, but they still want the elite units (ie: half the models they make) to get their save.

 

I don't resent the mechanic, but I think it's a side effect of not committing to the new Edition properly.

[Gentlemanloser]

Mortal Wounds would be fine, if they were a limited/niche scalpel option for that exact situation.

 

Except they are readily available and a hammer for everything.

 

Edit: Like the Hellforged Contemptor is just as adept at deleting Land Raiders with their T8/2+ Save and no invulnerable as it is a squad of 5 Hammernators with their 3++, or 5 scouts in a ruin, or a group of combat servitors running at it.

 

All it needs is a 2+ to hit.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Finkmilkana]

The problem is that they overflow and ignore save/toughness at the same time. If there would be two categories of „specialized wounds“, one tha overflows against hordes and one that ignores defenses against elites, it could be properly balanced.

But something that is good against everyone will always be good against everyone.

[Trevak Dal]

I have a bad feeling it's going to be the escalation point like D weapons before. I think you got the right of it.

 

Maybe it's a ploy to push horde armies? More models sold mean more money?

[Beams]

The problem is that they overflow and ignore save/toughness at the same time. If there would be two categories of „specialized wounds“, one tha overflows against hordes and one that ignores defenses against elites, it could be properly balanced.

But something that is good against everyone will always be good against everyone.

Eh, mortal wounds kind of suck vs hordes. Oh, I overflowed and killed three Guardsmen vs. I just smited(smote?) A paladin/Custodes. There's a huge difference there.

 

Also, as much as I hate mortal wounds (please smite 1-6 of my sisters who are in cover without even letting me roll my Shield of Faith, which was useful in 7th, but now worthless) they are needed to stop the type of impossible to kill shenanigans from 7th. Smashfather doesn't need to be back.

[totgeboren]

I have a bad feeling it's going to be the escalation point like D weapons before. I think you got the right of it.

 

Maybe it's a ploy to push horde armies? More models sold mean more money?

 

Don't think so, since what it punishes is mainly their big sellers...

[justicarius6]

Invulnerable saves have become too prolific and powerful as well. Personally I don't think any invul should go past 4+ and even they should be reserved. Maybe I'm just harking back too much to Rogue Trader....

[Mileposter]

I think the data shows Mortal Wounds from non-Smite GW sources aren't proving to be much of a problem in the larger meta, and the competitive scene doesn't seem to be pulling a lot of them either from what I saw. Please point out the data if I'm incorrect in that. Forge World sources suffer from being Forge World sources and have the Forge World problem.

 

Most sources have conditions on getting those Mortal Wounds going - either still having to-hits or chart rolls or fails-on-1's or must-be-within-X or only-on-roll-X. These sources have enough counters built in that you should be able to adjust to them at the listbuilding or strategy stage.

[Zodd1888]

I'll agree with the following:

 

Need more save mechanics to MW (certain units can use their invuln maybe, ie. Terminators)

 

Pushes towards hordes to reduce impact

 

Need more chain damage

 

Disagree with:

 

Fewer invulns as 5++ on 3++ models are only valuable against anti-toughness/tank weapons (ie. Las, Melta, PFist, etc.) reducing the value of invuln on most ranged fire and some melee

[SickSix]

I played against a Eldar army and was absolutely wrecked by mortal wounds. Their super smite ability is just stupid. My entire Devastator team was super-smited of the board and they were in cover.

 

How is that good for the game?

[Gentlemanloser]

Mile, how do you adjust to 9 Biovores, and 24" super smites from Zoanthropes?

 

The Super Smites manoeuvre (On Flying units that can Advance without penalty as Advancing doesn't effect Psychic Casts) to hit you outside Deny Range, and reroll 1's on their casting check due to Neurothropes.  They also use Fly + Advance to make sure the unit they actually want to hit with Smite is the Closest unit to them.

 

And the Biovores don't require LoS so sit somewhere hidden by LoS bocking Terrain.  And drop MW spore mines even if they miss.  In some cases, they *want* to miss to drop the spore mines, rather than landing direct MW.

[TheFinisher4Ever]

The problem with mortal wound spam isn't that they are lighting the competitive world on fire; it's that they are an insane rock/paper/scissors list to elite armies. You could play 100 games of Custodes vs Tyranids MW Spam and the Custodes would be lucky to win 1. Its a bit like the Optimized Stealth Cadre was to vehicles in 7th; so utterly broken that its existence made people less likely to use the vehicles just in case they faced it. That is what mortal wound spam does to elite armies.

 

I think Mortal Wounds, much like D Weapons of last edition, are fine as long as you pay the appropriate price for them. The problem isn't that Mortal Wounds exist, it is that they are far too plentiful and cheap. Biovores are far cheaper than they should be, for instance.

[Halandaar]

Sure. Too many sources of mortal wounds, which all work alike, when they shouldn't.

 

There should be a mechanism for some abilities (like certain psychic powers) to do damage whilst bypassing normal toughness/armour rules. A suit of armour should not prevent a psyker from invading your mind; but it should offer protection against them conjuring some kind of external force against you. Smite feels like the second, to me; like throwing an invisible girder at your foe. It's going to wipe out guys in t-shirts, but someone in Terminator Armour should be able to shrug that off the same as they would by being hit with an actual girder.

 

So basically, the various mortal-power abilities need to be reconsidered based on their intended effect. If the point of Smite is to slap the target unit with a massive invisible force, make it D3-D6 S10 hits, instead of mortal wounds. If the purpose of it is to attack the mind of the target, then specify it can only inflict wounds against a single model, and it must be an organic one at that.

 

 

I think the data shows Mortal Wounds from non-Smite GW sources aren't proving to be much of a problem in the larger meta, and the competitive scene doesn't seem to be pulling a lot of them either from what I saw. Please point out the data if I'm incorrect in that. 

 

"I make an assertion and provide no evidence. If you disagree, please provide evidence."

[MARK0SIAN]

I agree, mortal wounds are far too prolific in the game. I don’t like them because they’re too easy to generate compared to other wounds and (with a few exceptions) can’t be saved. It’s also ridiculous how some factions can hand them out like candy whilst others need very lucky dice rolls in very specific situations.

 

I’m not sure what the answer is, personally I’d be happy if they were totally removed from the game but I recognise they may be needed in certain specific situations. They need to be far more niche and limited. Maybe a hard cap on the number that can be inflicted per turn? Not a great solution and somewhat lacking in imagination though.

[Mileposter]

 

I think the data shows Mortal Wounds from non-Smite GW sources aren't proving to be much of a problem in the larger meta, and the competitive scene doesn't seem to be pulling a lot of them either from what I saw. Please point out the data if I'm incorrect in that.

 

"I make an assertion and provide no evidence. If you disagree, please provide evidence."

 

Apologies. I didn't think I needed to requote the oft-quoted and publicly available tournament lists.

[kombatwombat]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Mortal Wounds are an 8th Edition answer to a 7th Edition problem. Even without MWs, invisible rerollable 2+/2++/2+++ deathstars simply don’t exist in 8th Ed. Almost nothing rerolls saves of any kind, 3++ units don’t really have better than a 6+++ and nothing I know of has a 2+, 3++ and better than 5+++ without some crazy edge-case shenanigans from souping up. And Invisibility is gone (though some Eldar shenanigans get close to it). People posit that we need the nightlight of MWs to protect us from the invisible deathstar boogeyman hiding under the bed, but GW took that particular boogeyman out behind the shed and beat it to death with a baseball bat. Personally I think the game would be far better off it MWs were so rare they didn’t even have a name - just very rare special rules like Titans exploding not allowing saves of any kind.

 

MWs certainly cause balance issues, and that’s a problem. But they also undermine fun by bypassing player agency, and that’s just unforgivable.

[Lysere]

I have to agree that mortal wounds are the problem, not smite. My thought is they should either ignore saves or auto wound, not both. Some sources of mortal wounds shouldn't even be causing mortal wounds, spore mines come to mind. There is absolutely no fluff reason why such a little mine should be able to cut through all saving throws and autowound. The soulburner weapons are another great example and should either cost a lot more or be doing something other than mortal wounds.

[civsmitty]

Anyone sent their feedback to GW direct?

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

I dont see an issue with mortal wounds, but I do see how some units can really abuse them in a limited fashion. I see it as rock/paper/scissors. MW (rock) is good against elite units that are normally incredibly difficult to kill (take for example Wulfen with storm shields, 4+/3++/5+++), Elite (scissors) are usually good at dealing with hordes or hardy units depending on the unit type, Hordes (paper) are really good at getting through all the mortal wounds being thrown since there are so many models, they can take the losses and still keep going.

 

Now going up against 2 opponents specializing in mortal wounds is a little cheesy, but you are just going to have to figure out how to deal with the tactic. Possibly take larger squads and/or focus fire the most dire threats (like contemptors or zoanthropes) with long range fire before getting into engagement range. Its just one of many mechanics that you are going to have to strategize around. Can you imagine trying to take down things like Guillimen or a squad of assault terminators (TH and SS) in this edition without mortal wounds? While you can reduced their normal armor save with stronger AP weapons, you cant modify invul saves (unless you use the likes of a psyker null zone, so you have to pretty much be in charging range to use it) and things that have a 3+ or 4+ invul save can pretty incredibly difficult to bring down especially since you can just use command points to reroll failed saves.

[Gentlemanloser]

Grey Knights have no long range shooting.

 

Got to get into the same 24" range of super smites and soulburners.

 

But MW aren't just anti elite scissors. They are just as effective versus anything.

 

Sure more points are lost killing more expensive units.

 

But 5 MW kill 5 space marines just as effectively as 5 guardsmen or 5 kroot. Or take 5 wounds off a Titan.

 

I used Bobby last night. This is what happened to him.

 

He charged a hellforged contemptor. Did 3w as it made 4 4++ saves. Next turn he was killed by a Zoan super smite.

 

He revived, at end of psychic phase over 1" from the contemptor with 4w. No longer locked in combat.

 

Who then blasted him into dust in the shooting phase.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Azekai]

But MW aren't just anti elite scissors. They are just as effective versus anything.

 

This just seems like nonsense. MW (typically delivered via smite) can be absorbed easily by cheap hordes of chaff. Killing off three guardsmen or kroot with a smite doesn't matter. Killing off a few terminators or battlesuits with a decent smite roll is a Big Deal. That is why it counters elites. Dealing three unsoakable wounds to a bunch of cultists or guard that only existed to die conveniently anyway is *not* an effective use of smite.

 

 

I used Bobby last night. This is what happened to him.

 

He charged a hellforged contemptor. Did 3w as it made 4 4++ saves. Next turn he was killed by a Zoan super smite.

 

He revived, at end of psychic phase over 1" from the contemptor with 4w. No longer locked in combat.

 

Who then blasted him into dust in the shooting phase.

So, in order to illustrate how overbearing smite is against various unit types, you cite an anecdote in which you mispositioned Bobby G in such a way that the enemy was able to both smite *and* shoot him (despite the character rules). This hardly seems like a strong case for smite/MW being busted. Screen your important dudes and/or assault enemy psykers. They can't get your primarch if you have literally anything between him and them. 

 

And in no way did the aforementioned example actually support your argument because Guilleman is an extremely elite unit with very good saves. He is precisely the sort of thing MW were designed to destroy.

[Montford]

I disagree with the OP. Mortal Wounds are fine. Some Armies have no other recourse, when faced with a major Warlord or extremely strong Unit, of having a good method to put damage on him/her/it. Unless you want every Army to look the same.

[Wargamer]

Really, it seems like the problem is the unequal spread of abilities and vulnerabilities.
 

It seems like the way it should work is that Horde is weak vs dice buckets, but strong vs Mortal, with high-power being situationally useful.

Elite is strong vs dice buckets but weak vs high-power weapons, with Mortal Wounds being situationally useful.

Uber is strong vs high-power but weak with Mortal, with dice buckets being situationally useful (you can only pass so many 3+ invuns...).

 

Horde is weak vs dice buckets, but strong vs high power and Mortal Wounds.

Elite is weak vs dice buckets, high-power and Mortal Wounds.
Uber is strong vs dice buckets and high-power, but weak vs Mortal Wounds.

[Lysere]

I disagree with the OP. Mortal Wounds are fine. Some Armies have no other recourse, when faced with a major Warlord or extremely strong Unit, of having a good method to put damage on him/her/it. Unless you want every Army to look the same.

 

Except several armies that have easy access to mortal wounds already have ways to deal large amounts of damage very quickly to single models. It's also possible to make mortal wounds less of an issue without completely removing their purpose.

 

Tyranids already have decent shooting options, decent melee options, and access to smite. So why do spore mines need to also be doing mortal wounds when they could be doing literally any type of damage and not take away from the nids arsenal? If they didn't have access to smite it would be one thing but they do. If Smite was their only source of mortal wounds would we need to nerf smite like GW is thinking of doing?

 

The soulburner weapons are an entirely different issue.

 

Honestly just make mortal wounds not auto wound but instead wound on an unmodifieable 3+ and then simply allow certain models or units to wound on something else like a 2+ for Magnus in the psychic phase, or a 4+ for spore mines. Still wounds larger models just fine but curbs their power just a bit. Obviously this is just one potential idea but something somewhere will probably need to be changed. Might be easier to determine once all the books are out.