Balancing 40K

[The Unseen]

 

 

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of linking CP to HQ units.

Wouldn't this just have the same problems as the current system, where armies with cheap, spammable HQs overload on Detachments and leave the smaller, more expensive forces in the dust?

I would limit it to just the required HQ units, with no bonuses for taking more than you need.

 

The Supreme Command detachment would grant 2.

 

Most competitive environments I've seen have a max on number of detachments, so there would effectively be a hard cap on how many CP you could acquire.

 

Sure, Guard have a lot of cheap HQs, but if you're limited to 3 detachments you won't gain CP for having more than a max of 9. And that's assuming you're insane enough to run 3 Brigades.

Why do that and still give the people with cheap options a lot more to play with when a percentage system is fair no matter what army you play?

I don't understand.

 

If I drop 1000 pts of a 2k list into required HQs and troops, it shouldn't really matter what army I'm playing, I should get a lot of CP.

Guard can almost run 2 brigades with that, marines would struggle to get 2 battalions.

 

Just go to detachments requiring a specific percentage of your points spent based on the slots, and not have unit caps.

 

So something like

Battalion: minimum points 750

+3 CP

15% of this Detachment points value must be spent on HQs, but no more than 30%.

40% of this Detachments points must be spent on troops.

 

So if someone wants raw naked guard bodies, they have to bring almost 8 squads, or they could bring 2 fully loaded tactical squads (give or take).

But the points spent are the same.

 

I pulled those numbers right out of my ass, so don't go and try and pick apart it with those, I just got off work and it's 4 am here.

[Tyriks]

Giving CP for meeting the minimum requirement of a detachment is also exactly what we have right now. It doesn't change anything.

[Captain Idaho]

I think a flat points expenditure in a formation is sufficient without complicating it with percentages.

 

As an example, 750pts plus the complusory slots for a Battalion is fairer since Astra Millitarum need to put the same amount of points into it as anyone else.

 

If you can't meet the minimum points then you get no CP for it.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Captain Idaho

[Gentlemanloser]

That still doesn't help armies that are physically incapable of filling a brigade.

 

While making the armies that are have to spend a few more pints to do so.

[Kallas]

That still doesn't help armies that are physically incapable of filling a brigade.

 

While making the armies that are have to spend a few more pints to do so.

 

I agree. I think probably the best solution is to decouple CP from the Detachments completely (instead base it on game size). Could give Detachments some kind of benefit when army building, though honestly they're fine as they are (without CP involved) for letting you build your army in the way that want, without needing special "X Unit becomes Troops" rules bloating armies.

[Schlitzaf]

Establishing minimum has the issues how is AM supposed to get to 750? 3 Characters cost you 150ish, and 6 infantry squads get 450ish. With max upgrades on everyone. Unless you take Scions, even then its just getting to silly overly upgrades just for +2 CP. Hordes unlocking CP, is not really that big of an issue. The fact hordes unlock CP and said CP is being used for Marine Stratagems not Guard Stratagems (frankly the generic guard stratagems, are pretty meh or highly situational. The only worthwhile ones are unit locked (Melee Baneblades or Commissar Russ, lesser extent VoxChimera most notable), or are lackluster. The goods one are due to (regiment)).  

 

Also something kinda interesting, beside Scions, Guard armies, are only armies without a shooting interruption to opponents deep strike (and maybe Tyranids too? Someone have their codex). 

[TheFinisher4Ever]

I personally dislike decoupling detachments from CP because no one would ever take Battalions or Brigades if they didn't give CP. If the detachments don't give CP, why even bother with detachments at all?

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, if an army can meet the requirements of a Brigade whilst being set to say 1800pts, they have a disadvantage in their army is combined arms and less focused.

 

If your elite army needs to spend say 1200pts on a Battalion it will still have points spare for a cheeky Spearhead.

 

It's the trade off.

 

I've noticed that some people won't be happy with any fix unless their small elites army gets twice as many models and the same amount of CPs and free extra special rules.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

That still doesn't help armies that are physically incapable of filling a brigade.

 

While making the armies that are have to spend a few more pints to do so.

 

1) putting a cap on points does restrict their choices more, you could also set the limit for them to the point that they couldn't fit in another detachment with a cp bonus and have an effective cap.

 

I do think that this something that needs to be fixed at the codex level. Make a rule where if your whole army has a codex fraction key word and you have a certain combination of units you gain bonus CP.

 

Establishing minimum has the issues how is AM supposed to get to 750? 3 Characters cost you 150ish, and 6 infantry squads get 450ish. With max upgrades on everyone. Unless you take Scions, even then its just getting to silly overly upgrades just for +2 CP. Hordes unlocking CP, is not really that big of an issue. The fact hordes unlock CP and said CP is being used for Marine Stratagems not Guard Stratagems (frankly the generic guard stratagems, are pretty meh or highly situational. The only worthwhile ones are unit locked (Melee Baneblades or Commissar Russ, lesser extent VoxChimera most notable), or are lackluster. The goods one are due to (regiment)).  

 

Also something kinda interesting, beside Scions, Guard armies, are only armies without a shooting interruption to opponents deep strike (and maybe Tyranids too? Someone have their codex). 

 

I think what Captain Idaho was suggesting is that they would have to meet the point threshold and with the normal requirements. So basically you'd have to take 2 hqs, 3 troops, then you could take whatever combination of optional slots you wanted to get the total to 750.

 

Nids don't have any, neither do any of the chaos fractions (daemons, TS, DG, and Chaos Space Marines). Don't know about Custodes.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Black_Star

[Gentlemanloser]

Such a straeman cap... no ones ever asked for that.

 

Plus If the horde with a brigade has 200 points left, thier cheap 40pt hq and cheaper models can afford then a cheeky extra battalion!

 

Please cap...

 

Edit. GK don't have a ds interrupt either. Custodes have the usual -1 hit shoot at a ds strat.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Halfpint100]

My biggest grips are the ability to stack negatives to hit on a unit and the multiple alpha strike options available to most units. A few armies have the ability to deploy so close to the opponent it hurts (alpha legion I am looking at you, but that does require first turn). 

 

I miss the longer games of 7th where it was not decided turn 1. Though I am unsure how to fix it.

 

I like the idea of only the primary detatchment giving CP, though maybe adding a 6CP detatchment inbetween a battalion and a brigade could help the issues people are having filling every slot? and bumping the "1HQ 3 of 1 choice" detachments up to 2 or 3 CP. 

 

Do remember though these detatchments to give us CP are designed to sell models. Gw is a model company after all.

[Captain Idaho]

Such a straeman cap... no ones ever asked for that.

Plus If the horde with a brigade has 200 points left, thier cheap 40pt hq and cheaper models can afford then a cheeky extra battalion!

Please cap...

Edit. GK don't have a ds interrupt either. Custodes have the usual -1 hit shoot at a ds strat.

I'm not trying to have a go. Let's bear in mind that those hordes are filling up a Brigade but not focusing their list with more specialised formations etc.

[chapter master 454]

Right now, as it stands Horde armies and Elite armies are nearly on parity but the big difference is elite armies get fewer command points (for some reason). This is compounding with the current popular notion that horde is the strongest army type right now.

 

CP is tied to a factor that should reduce it: Quantity.

 

It maybe should be an inverse relation of points: Smaller detachments offer more CP. Add the rule that per 1000 points you are allowed one detachment. This means in our standard games of 2000, it gives  reason for that being the points limit for the edition. From there you then alter the detachments so that large ones like Brigades give you lots of options for units and how you place them but you have few CP (brigade would offer 0-1 CP). These would have ofcourse requirements to fill out the mandatory slots still. From there you have smaller detachments which would only have up to 4 slots at most of one slot while having 2 of others (possibly even just 1). These would offer more CP (up to 6, 9 is WAY too much). I would think possibly attaching that if you include more than one detachment, they have points limits within them.

For the points limits on them, it would be according to detachments taken vs. maximum detachments allowed (Detachment Point Limit = Maximum Detachments allowed - Detachments Taken). Would likely have abuse cases that would need ironed out but it is an idea to make it so CP is inversely related to army size.

[depthcharge12]

I don’t think I’ve seen it posted yet, but what about using detachments catered towards that particular Codex?

 

A bunch of HQs and troops with supporting elements make sense for a big, clunky IG army utilizing a Brigade.

 

However a brigade’s requirement for a SM force =/= an IG one. Perhaps it should be a couple of HQ choices and a minimum of 20 tacticals or 4 Squads however sized you want. Even though I’m a detractor of the Codex in the way it has been interpreted, taking a Codex sanctioned company should generate free strategems or CPs for following the vision of a logistic genius.

 

I don’t think we should hasten to nerf others like the OP points out, rather, we should adjust the system to fit the armies. GW is doing an honest, good job for once and really mean it this time, so we should be positive in our construction and trust in them to listen. Help them alter their vision to what should be represented (with a pinch of salt) on the tabletop and list building.

[Captain Idaho]

Agreed; GW is doing marvellous stuff.

 

Personally I don't like Detachment style bonuses from 7th Edition. It's too restrictive and I don't like being told what to field.

 

Remember, Battlions could produce a couple extra Command Points and then taking one wouldn't be far below a Brigade. No fix has to be in isolation.

[MrZakalwe]

I'd like to see the 'chargers strike first' rule removed with a move towards the superior play of the Age of Sigmar combat phase. In most ways 8th edition is just Age of Sigmar with the crap bits removed but they did add one in this case.

 

In AoS some units (typically cavalry but not always) get bonuses for having charged but most units just get to be in a close combat they chose (which is normally bonus enough).

 

The alternate activation of the AoS combat phase adds an awful lot of strategy and the removal of it was poor.

 

Otherwise I'd limit negative hit modifiers to a max of -2 with -1 addable by each player (to hit modifier of -1 possible for the target and a -1 to hit for the player for having moved with a heavy weapon etc) and I'd make command points only usable on generic strats or the strats of the keyword the detachment that generated them had (an AM battalion's 3 CP would only be usable for generic strats or AM).

 

I think that would remove the biggest issues, to be honest, while making the combat phase a much more interesting and interactive phase (one of the strengths of AoS is that between two combat heavy armies both players get quite a big of agency in both turns).

[Wargamer]

I think we could stand to see certain bonuses given to certain units. Bikes, Cavalry and some Infantry (ie: those with jump packs) are all good examples of units that probably deserve a little boost when charging.

 

But I also understand the flipside of that - people are going to start crying when a one-tonne horse gives you a damage bonus to the charge, but a ten-tonne Terminator or eighty-tonne tank gets nothing.

 

On that note, a part of me would like to see Tank Shock make a return. It seems rather silly that tanks are ineffectual at charging. Combat yes, that makes sense, but charging? Anyone who stands their ground in front of a charging tank should be a bloody smear across the dirt!

[MrZakalwe]

In the terminator example they aren't going to be charging very fast and their combat abilities just need to be awesome when charged or charging - they get to be great either way while the cavalry seem like they should be more efficient while charging but less when charged. Some units in Sigmar even get bonuses for receiving a charge (though few - think 30k style space marine breachers would be a good candidate for this).

 

I'm with you on the vehicle thing but it should come with the option of just getting the hell out of the way.

Edited February 14, 2018 by MrZakalwe

[Tyriks]

I truly hope they don't make CPs only usable by the detachment that generated them purely for the sake of bookkeeping. I'd be much more on board with saying you have to choose a detachment to be your primary detachment and that other detachments can only use the generic ones, or something, but I'm not interested in keeping track of up to 6 CP lists (3 for me, 3 for my opponent).

[Gentlemanloser]

And Which of your detachments get to use the global 3cp?

 

It's just not feasible to limit cp use to detachments. Or factions.

[Tyriks]

Limiting stratagems to a primary faction is feasible. Other factions have full access to cp but can only use generic stratagems.

[utilityzero]

I prefer to limit CP generation and numbers of detachments. The more variables and fewer controls and limitations the more impossible any sort of balance becomes. Also list building should be a challenge to get the most out of your codex. Not about exploiting weird rules gaps and combinations and generating rule breaking CP.

[Gentlemanloser]

Tyriks and what if my primary faction is Imperium?

[justicarius6]

I don't see what's so difficult about only being able to use the stratagems that come from your warlord's codex (after all, they are the ones giving the orders) + the basics. It also stops ridiculous combos like the Imperial guard CP miner being exploited.

[Tyriks]

Your primary faction wouldn't ever be Imperium, it would be whatever specific subfaction your Warlord is from.