When to hold back?

[Karhedron]

I think by now we are all pretty familiar with using our new toys to help achieve alpha strikes and turn 1 charges. From the mini-missile of Captain Smashypants to Sanguinary Guard descending like avenging angels But these tend to work on the assumption that we are facing more shooty foes who do not want to get stuck in melee with us (or at least, not en-masse).

 

So what do we do when we face armies like Orks and Nids who are likely to welcome close combat and will happily come hurtling towards us regardless. Do we want to go for the throat of such choppy foes or do we risk our elite melee units simply getting eaten by such hordes after their initial glorious charge?

 

Descent of Angels is great but costs 2CPs, as done Forlorn Fury. Do we need to spend these CPs on getting close to the enemy quickly when we might be better off shooting for a turn or two while they come to us? I am thinking that against CC-heavy armies, rather than going to the alpha strike, it probably makes more sense to keep our reserves back for counter-charging anything that gets through our opening salvos rather than charging off into the enemy's deployment zone at the earliest opportunity.

 

If you deploy your DC normally and your opponent gets the first turn, they will likely be able to manage a Turn 1 charge without you having to spend any CPs. If you get first turn, you can either hold them back while the rest of your army shoots or you can use Folorn Fury to pull off a T1 charge if you spot a suitable target left unscreened. This has the advantage of leaving DoA available for something else.

 

Am I thinking sensibly or just rambling? Does anyone else have any ruminations in what to do when we face an enemy who is even choppier than us?

[Blackcadian]

Edit/disclaimer: I have only played Eldar, Ultramarines, Death Guard and AdMech so far.

 

Well, personally I‘ve learned the hard way that alpha strikes are rarely ever worth it. Theres usually chaff and all sorts of obstacles preventing you from getting the most out of our expensive heavy hitters right away. Even if theres not theyll most likely get shot up unless you manage to tri-lock, which might not be possible.

 

I much prefer letting the enemy stretch out a little and whittle the screen down. I think we Blood Angels are in the enviable position of being very good at assaulting but also pretty good at shooting. My TAC list will usually feature a shooty backline with a Lt and Captain Smush (Scorpius, Rapier, Sicarans, Devastators...) some screening and mid range elements (Scouts, Tacs, Intercessors) and then the assault hammer (DC, SG ...). That way I am super flexible when it comes to bringing down the hammer.

 

At least thats how I play it.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Blackcadian

[Orblivion]

I think by now we are all pretty familiar with using our new toys to help achieve alpha strikes and turn 1 charges. From the mini-missile of Captain Smashypants to Sanguinary Guard descending like avenging angels But these tend to work on the assumption that we are facing more shooty foes who do not want to get stuck in melee with us (or at least, not en-masse).

 

So what do we do when we face armies like Orks and Nids who are likely to welcome close combat and will happily come hurtling towards us regardless. Do we want to go for the throat of such choppy foes or do we risk our elite melee units simply getting eaten by such hordes after their initial glorious charge?

 

Descent of Angels is great but costs 2CPs, as done Forlorn Fury. Do we need to spend these CPs on getting close to the enemy quickly when we might be better off shooting for a turn or two while they come to us? I am thinking that against CC-heavy armies, rather than going to the alpha strike, it probably makes more sense to keep our reserves back for counter-charging anything that gets through our opening salvos rather than charging off into the enemy's deployment zone at the earliest opportunity.

 

If you deploy your DC normally and your opponent gets the first turn, they will likely be able to manage a Turn 1 charge without you having to spend any CPs. If you get first turn, you can either hold them back while the rest of your army shoots or you can use Folorn Fury to pull off a T1 charge if you spot a suitable target left unscreened. This has the advantage of leaving DoA available for something else.

 

Am I thinking sensibly or just rambling? Does anyone else have any ruminations in what to do when we face an enemy who is even choppier than us?

 

I also like to build flexible lists, with a core of shooty units and using our dedicated assault units for pinpoint strikes throughout the battle rather than an alpha strike.

 

I'll also say though, while this doesn't really answer the OP's question from a strategic standpoint, that I actually enjoy playing my Blood Angels close to the lore.  I start most games playing conservative, sticking to strong shooting positions and using mobility to focus on objectives.  I get more aggressive as the game goes on, and I will sometimes decide that my army has reached a tipping point and I start playing as if the entire force is in the grips of the Red Thirst :)

[Smendrik]

I fight orks a lot.

You need a somewhat solid firebase. Most often I take a captain in gravis armor, 2 intercessor squads, and a hellblaster squad. That's the bulk that travels down the middle of the board.
I use the DC, "Captain Hammer", and a libby dread for countercharges mostly.

Inceptors and landspeeder are good too. Anything with which you can kite mobs really.

 

Oh, and let them have the first turn. Countercharging them in the middle of the field most often stops them in their tracks

[Smendrik]

 

I think by now we are all pretty familiar with using our new toys to help achieve alpha strikes and turn 1 charges. From the mini-missile of Captain Smashypants to Sanguinary Guard descending like avenging angels But these tend to work on the assumption that we are facing more shooty foes who do not want to get stuck in melee with us (or at least, not en-masse).

 

So what do we do when we face armies like Orks and Nids who are likely to welcome close combat and will happily come hurtling towards us regardless. Do we want to go for the throat of such choppy foes or do we risk our elite melee units simply getting eaten by such hordes after their initial glorious charge?

 

Descent of Angels is great but costs 2CPs, as done Forlorn Fury. Do we need to spend these CPs on getting close to the enemy quickly when we might be better off shooting for a turn or two while they come to us? I am thinking that against CC-heavy armies, rather than going to the alpha strike, it probably makes more sense to keep our reserves back for counter-charging anything that gets through our opening salvos rather than charging off into the enemy's deployment zone at the earliest opportunity.

 

If you deploy your DC normally and your opponent gets the first turn, they will likely be able to manage a Turn 1 charge without you having to spend any CPs. If you get first turn, you can either hold them back while the rest of your army shoots or you can use Folorn Fury to pull off a T1 charge if you spot a suitable target left unscreened. This has the advantage of leaving DoA available for something else.

 

Am I thinking sensibly or just rambling? Does anyone else have any ruminations in what to do when we face an enemy who is even choppier than us?

 

I also like to build flexible lists, with a core of shooty units and using our dedicated assault units for pinpoint strikes throughout the battle rather than an alpha strike.

 

I'll also say though, while this doesn't really answer the OP's question from a strategic standpoint, that I actually enjoy playing my Blood Angels close to the lore.  I start most games playing conservative, sticking to strong shooting positions and using mobility to focus on objectives.  I get more aggressive as the game goes on, and I will sometimes decide that my army has reached a tipping point and I start playing as if the entire force is in the grips of the Red Thirst

 

This exactly! 

Going full out assault is high risk/ high reward, and it is very dice dependent.

Having a solid firebase is worth gold, if only to wear bigger targets down

[Calistarius]

I’ve only played Orks and Space Wolves since the codex dropped. I haven’t built the most flexible list either. I have had only success though with what I have done, however. I go for the kill in the first turn. I use a DC bomb of 15 w/ chainswords plus support from Sanguinor and Mephiston to cripple/tie up their most dangerous units (TWC, Wulfen, biggest hordes). If I don’t keep them in reserves then I try to deploy modestly. Either behind some terrain or behind another squad, because my opponents are also aggressive players. With 90 attacks on the charge I can typically wipe out most things leaving just enough to protect me from shooting, but not enough to really worry about. Multi-charging has been key here. I then use Captain Slamguinius to hunt Warlords.

 

I’ve also been using a Stormraven and either a Stormhawk or a Stormtalon as my main fire base. They’ve been mobile and durable enough for me thus far, and put out more than enough dakka. I’ve even contemplated sticking all 3 in an Air-wing detachment, but I haven’t tried it yet. I also haven’t faced an adequate anti-vehicle list yet. I’m sure this wouldn’t stand up well against Dark Reaper spam or any other high damage high output shooting armies.

 

I haven’t lost a game yet with our codex, but it has definitely been close at times. Like I said, I play to get them back pedaling by turn 2.

[Pendent]

I fall on the side of taking more flexible lists these days so that I have the tools to deal with whatever threats I face without having to resort to throwing Death Company at it (not that this isn't sometimes a very viable solution).

 

I've played 3-4 games against Orks since the codex released and won every time so far. None against nids yet as my local player has always had another game going when I show up but I hope to get one in soon. Orks have a few different styles of list that I've seen but they do all tend to be pretty aggressive, a fact that I've exploited pretty heavily to get my wins. 

 

Even if you get first turn you absolutely do not want to be going to them immediately. Every list I've played against absolutely has the ability to eat our alpha strikes for breakfast even if they do lose a bunch of models in the process. More than this, deploy the rest of your army very defensively. Unless you have a bunch of scouts or other cheap bodies don't even try to score more than one or two objectives during the first turn because the wider you go the easier it's going to be for the Ork player to defeat you in detail. My goal is to have relatively small footprint that allows me to focus my firepower while at the same time not being so tightly packed that I end up with my entire backfield tied up in assault.

During the first turn or two those backfield units sit still and do as much shooting as they can. I like having a few lascannon Predators in my lists for anti vehicle work and my primary goal for the first few turns with my shooting is to pop as many vehicles as possible. Once the Ork wave breaks against my line of Intercessors I start bringing my own reserves in, Inceptors against the more isolated stuff, carbine Reivers working toward midfield objectives and jump assault infantry deploying against the main bulk of the enemy force. I've consistently been able to do enough damage over the first two turns so that the main blob starts falling apart but cold dice during a critical assault could very well mean a loss.

 

This strategy does have to get modified pretty heavily depending on how the Ork player is using his army. If they focus more on controlling the board and scoring objectives then I start deploying my reserves to contest. If just combine their entire army into a single murderball I generally just try to tarpit as much as possible and try to focus on objectives as much as I'm able.

 

 

Our primary advantage over them is flexibility and I win by leveraging that to mitigate the strength of the Ork list as much as possible. Going head to head against a horde will rarely be a winning strategy so we have to use clever tactics and mobility to put them on the back foot.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Flexibility is key I feel. - Like a good sword.

You have to be able to adapt to the mission and opponent on the fly.

I believe we have been given great tools for it by GW (some flaws aside).

 

I myself find that every time I get my dander up and get too aggressive whether on the table or in the list design stage I lose more often than not.

Although heroics do happen.

 

Many games walk a line of over or under commiting forces making Blood Angels a joy to play (if somewhat difficult).

I find commonly that whomever has the fresh reserve or unit waiting to charge decides things against an aggressive oppponent. (us or them)

The trick seems to be to bait them over or just wait a few and then break them with a backhand blow while not falling for it ourselves.

 

Fortunately for us we have:

Upon Wings of Fire (1cp) pick up the jumpers and redploy them.

Descent of Angels (2cp) charge on 3d6 instead of 2d6 with deployed jumpers.

 

Keeping back 3 cp and an evolving plan as conditions develop to use these brings victory.

we're fighting... we're fighting... I just executed the redeploy and lightning strike and dice/situation dependant achieved victory... 

 

----

Against a more traditional gunline you have to have planned at the list building stage to do the above and also still have realized you will have games where you are the dedicated attacker or the dead.

 

You have to be able to chew thru screens and achieve LZ(s) before dropping the whammy on the tasty insides too or the whammy will get it's face shot off.

The slow blade penetrates the shield here usually, but not too slow or see above =)

 

Also remember to plan to screen the whammy in either case from your opponents reserves / unvisited units.

Cheap ASM / DC or a Rhino bumper car etc are good here.

 

Back to that flexibility.

I am still working on my take all comers recipe, winning occasionally and having a blast either way !!

[Brother Crimson]

Since codex of nids I am a lot more concerned about their fire capacity. Devgaunt bomb in a tunnel is pretty nasty. Scouts help against trygon placement but they go down fast.

 

Against genestealers normal bolter shots can do a lot of work, hence why I think bolter in DC is a great option. I wouldn’t try to charge them unless I am sure I will outright kill them.

 

Tyranid have a GREAT balance of mobility fire power and melee capacity, like we are supposed to have.

 

I played a lot less against orcs but I have found that intercessor are great against them their -1ap denies the save when you shoot and they stand their ground in melee. I am really pleased how they perform.

[Smendrik]

Intercessors are my new love when it comes to troops

 

Five of these guys held themselves alone against a considerably large ork mob. Only when a waaagh boss entered the melee they really started dying.. (But still bought me another round)

[Indefragable]

All about throttle control.

 

1. Starburst.

Castle up. Reenact your favorite scene from Starship Troopers. Explode your high-mobility units outwards to either evade or go on the offense once a certain critical mass of enemies has been shredded. This is actually probably the single best use for Dante at the moment.

 

2. Defensive Deep Strike.

Insert Steel Rain jokes. Lure enemies to overextend themselves and then DoA into a flank or even into a unit that’s already tied up with one of yours.

 

3. Ram.

Get your charge off first and then fall back (with Fly keyword) to open them up to shooting from the rest of your army. Risky, but can prevent any charge bonuses the enemy has while also buying you time to set up your own forces.

 

I actually find that (if you play BA the way I do which is lots of highly mobile units, especially jumpers), fighting other Chaaaaaaarge! type armies is one of the best matchups because few opponents have our combo of melee prowess AND mobility.

 

-Tyranids: one of the tougher horde armies and lots of tricks to to circumvent your lines. MC’d throw things off. But their hordes die fast enough if you dedicate the effort to them and treat MC’s like vehicles. Kill the big ones (synapse) first

 

-Orks: Da Jump psychic power is the monkey in the wrench. And it’s an 800lb hulking green gorilla of a monkey at that. Spamming Deff Dreads/Walkers is tough. Otherwise, they are an ideal army to Starburst against because their genuinely low armor stats on infantry and vehicles should be paper to most of our appropriate guns. And we can punch back pretty hard as well. Save your CP for the melee Interrupt universal Strategem. Then Jump Pack circles around them.

 

-Khorne Berzerkers: kite them. Shoot them and then charge when you KNOW you can make the charge and try to only get into one melee at a time on your turn so they can’t interrupt. If they rush Rhinos surround them with whatever be heck you got so they can’t Fall Back and the guys inside die automatically if you kill the Rhino.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Indefragable

[Calistarius]

I’d add to your list Indefragable;

 

-Wulfen: kite them like you would Berzerkers. Do what ever it takes to stay out of combat with them. You’ll likely kill them if you charge, but you’ll still be hit with a devastating swing each time one dies. It hurts. I’ve gotten to where I just avoid them or throw tacticals in their path until they’re down to the last man-beast.

 

-TWC: much like the previously listed, I would try to take a few wounds off of these guys before charging. The riders themselves haven’t cause me nearly the fits that the actual mounts have with their “crushing teeth and claws” attack. They get 3 of these Str 5 AP -1 attacks per model. That ridiculous number goes up to 4 if Canis Wolfborn is near by. The dang mounts have as many, yet higher quality attacks than their riders stock. It’s a little ridiculous if you ask me. They’re not nearly as powerful as they were in 7th though.

[The Unseen]

I’d add to your list Indefragable;

 

-Wulfen: kite them like you would Berzerkers. Do what ever it takes to stay out of combat with them. You’ll likely kill them if you charge, but you’ll still be hit with a devastating swing each time one dies. It hurts. I’ve gotten to where I just avoid them or throw tacticals in their path until they’re down to the last man-beast.

 

-TWC: much like the previously listed, I would try to take a few wounds off of these guys before charging. The riders themselves haven’t cause me nearly the fits that the actual mounts have with their “crushing teeth and claws” attack. They get 3 of these Str 5 AP -1 attacks per model. That ridiculous number goes up to 4 if Canis Wolfborn is near by. The dang mounts have as many, yet higher quality attacks than their riders stock. It’s a little ridiculous if you ask me. They’re not nearly as powerful as they were in 7th though.

Overcharged plasma works really well against wulfen.

I'd say kite them MORE than zerkers, if you kill a unit of bezerkers before they get to swing at all, your safe, as long as you watch out for the interrupt strategem. Wulfen will basically murder any unit that charges them with their after death attacks.

If you have to charge them, units with a super high invul save (basically just a 3++) can *maybe* survive, depending on how lucky you are.

 

TWC, though far from the absolute monsters they used to be, are still pretty scary.

They'll probably have more than a few shields, so you want high strength multi damage weapons with little AP, which for marines, is pretty much just autocannons, especially predator autocannons.

Shatter shells from a quad mortar will also do very well.

If your opponent doesn't have the Devils own luck like the wolf player I know, stabdard anti tank weapons will tear them up as well, but watching lascannon after lascannon bounce off storm shield saves is really really frustrating, be warned.

 

DC with a Priest nearby will shred them pretty well too.

[Aothaine]

Don't forget that a single unit of Aggressors or three units of three setup with the bolter spam is very affordable and a huge deterrent for horde armies. Though you will most likely only get one round of shooting against Orks/Nids if you are lucky before they hit your lines.

[Brother Crimson]

Don't forget that a single unit of Aggressors or three units of three setup with the bolter spam is very affordable and a huge deterrent for horde armies. Though you will most likely only get one round of shooting against Orks/Nids if you are lucky before they hit your lines.

They also roll a lot on overwatch with their dual fire ability. 36+6D6 shots means some of them will land.

[Indefragable]

For what it's worth, I think the OP was asking more from a Tactics standpoint then a listbuilding standpoint.