Assault squads in 8th?

[Smendrik]

Assault squads are kind of one of our signature units, but I am kind of underwhelmed on paper from what they can do..

Are you guys using them?
How do you equip them?
Are the still a viable choice?

I really need some inspiration here!

[Silverson]

I still use them but they are inferior to to company veterans for shooting and death company/vanguard veterans/ sanguinary guard at fighting.

 

I use them in squads of 5 with 2 melta guns and jump packs. Drop them down and melta things or drop them in cover for a next turn melta mash.

[Orblivion]

Assault squads are kind of one of our signature units, but I am kind of underwhelmed on paper from what they can do..

 

Are you guys using them?

How do you equip them?

Are the still a viable choice?

 

I really need some inspiration here!

 

As sad as it sounds, I have 40 assault marines sitting on a shelf doing nothing.  I just have not been able to find a place for them in my lists so far.  Although I will say that at this time most of my games are capping out at 1000 points, since I've been playing a lot with two friends who are new to the hobby.  As our games get bigger I might start reintroducing my beloved assault marines.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Orblivion

[Charlo]

5 Man assault squads with 2 Plasma Guns and a Combi Plasma are cheap, have a small footprint. They can delivery nasty plasma to anywhere on the board, much cheaper than Inceptors and fill out choices for a Brigade or the like for CP.

 

Add in a Captain with Combi Plasma for re-rolls and you get fun things.

 

Can also use Melta.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Assault Marine sergeants can't take combi weapons.  Sadly, best you can give them is a plas pistol, which still helps for plasma-style targets.  Meltaguns/inferno pistol, though, have range problems if you deepstrike them (ie, the inferno pistol can't support the melta guns)

Edited February 9, 2018 by 9x19 Parabellum

[neonmole]

I have been using 3x5 ASM with 2 Plasma and a Plas Pistol.

 

I have found them to be pretty strong, I deploy them via deepstrike with a captain, usually on turn 2 or 3 once the board is a little clearer, and they have the opportunity to make a big strategic impact, by clearing a flank or whatever. They are also very good targets to use “wings of fire” on to grab objectives, since they are cheap and can still fire a couple of shots at 24”.

 

Overall I’m a fan. They kick out a serious amount of damage on the turn them drop, can kill small chaff units in melee well enough, and are very good at tying up enemy vehicles/heavy weapon units.

[Brother Crimson]

Sadly I almost replaced them all with inceptors. A jump pack fire base is invaluable to my eyes and DC/sang guard handle melee duties.

[neonmole]

I also think Inceptors are very good, and if you are lacking anti horde the bolter ones are brilliant value.

 

The reason I am playing ASM over them is that I have 3 assbacks in my list, so I am comfortable with my anti horde, and I wanted several small units (for objective grabbing) over a more expensive unit, making the plasma ASM more attractive than plasma inceptors.

 

Both have a place I feel.

[Schlitzaf]

Assault Squads are best (footwalking) for those who want midfield style 3-4 8-10 Man Core MidField Units style Units like Crusader and Grey Hunter Squads. And refuse to use Intercessors. They equitable stats to Crusader and Grey Hunters, because Eviscerators and PlasmPistols (PlasmPistols being able to shoot in CloseCombat. Helps some). But have only 33-25% of the equivalent BolterFire to both Squads.

 

Bolter: 21 ASM vs Crusaders 35 and Hunters 28

Special: 6 Special (2 Evis&Special, Sgt) ASM vs 4 Crusaders (Heavy, Special, Sgt), and 6 Grey Hunters (2 Special, WGPL, 1 PlasPistol, GHPL).

 

That said ultimately that role is better filled by Intercessors. But ASM have a comparable output half the defensive and far weaker range. Don’t have cheap bodies like Crusader Squads or Bolter/Chain Combo GreyHunters have.

[Kallas]

Eviscerators are an absolute waste of points! They're AP-4 Power Fists for +10pts: seriously a terrible investment.

 

1 (2 if Sergeant) attacks at effective WS4+ is not worth it. Particularly when it costs 35pts

[Panzer]

Eviscerators are really the only reason why I'd ever take Assault Marines and then just for rule-of-cool, not because it's so strong.

[Kallas]

Just run them as counts-as Power Fist, or something

[Panzer]

Nah, I like my WYSIWYG. Eviscerators are way to obviously something else. :D

[Crimson Ghost IX]

They are also decent for a drop in reaction screen unit.

I have been handing that duty to 5 DC w/bolters tho when I feel its needed in a list.

They score obj the same etc.

The plasma role is decent as noted above.

 

I haven't been running them much really and promoted many to Company Veteran when 8th dropped.

If they were troops still I would squeeze them in more prolly as they are decent, by using points spent on troops in a battalion detachment I mean.

but such is life.

 

If I were a new player I would put them far down the list of needed things really.

 

If you have them already and wanna run them they are not terrible at all.

Kinda like Primaris Marines =)

[brother_b]

I love them. They're just so BA. I put the meltas on them, and drop them in for the chance to snipe something. If they survive the return fire, well, bonus, they get to shoot again. If not, it's fine with me.

[Fahlnor]

My issue is that the unit is pretty much entirely inferior to Company Veterans in terms of bringing in plasma weapons via deep strike, unless you specifically want five or fewer plasma shots for some reason.

 

Five Assault Marines with dual plasma gun and a plasma pistol is 113 points.

 

Five Company Veterans with jump packs, four with plasma guns and a plasma pistol is 154 points.

 

So for a ~33% increase in points, you get an 80% increase in damage output. And if you are bringing in a Captain as previously suggested, the Company Veterans offer the ability to soak wounds for the character if needed.

[Karhedron]

That is the problem with ASM, for a few extra points, you can get a big increase in assault by getting VV/DC or a big increase in mobile firepower with Company Vets or Inceptors.

 

Filling slots in a Brigade is a possibility but Inceptors are better and Attack bikes are cheaper.

[Panzer]

Honestly that's hardly news tho. The BA Codex was always full of redundant units due Marines being all so similar to eachother. At least in 7th we still had the Meltacide drop pods which made them kinda unique due being cheap and reliable I guess.

[dread05]

My issue is that the unit is pretty much entirely inferior to Company Veterans in terms of bringing in plasma weapons via deep strike, unless you specifically want five or fewer plasma shots for some reason.

 

Five Assault Marines with dual plasma gun and a plasma pistol is 113 points.

 

Five Company Veterans with jump packs, four with plasma guns and a plasma pistol is 154 points.

 

So for a ~33% increase in points, you get an 80% increase in damage output. And if you are bringing in a Captain as previously suggested, the Company Veterans offer the ability to soak wounds for the character if needed.

Correct me if im wrong, but the company vet sergeant can take a combi plasma right?

[Schlitzaf]

Eviscerators are an absolute waste of points! They're AP-4 Power Fists for +10pts: seriously a terrible investment.

 

1 (2 if Sergeant) attacks at effective WS4+ is not worth it. Particularly when it costs 35pts

Edited February 10, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Kallas]

Things to bear in mind, though:

- Eviscerator costs you your pistol too (replaces both Pistol and Chainsword)

- it's on a single attack model (or costs you your Sergeant's Plasma Pistol)

- you could just slap a Power Fist on Sergeant for similar effect to two Eviscerators on regular ASM, while maintaining their Pistols/Chainswords, as well as being harder to actually finally knock out the PF.

 

Finally, it's not 2 ASM vs 1 Eviscerator ASM, it's 3 ASM (39) vs 1 EASM (35). Yes, the EASM does bring some anti-heavy, but for their cost that's :cuss awfully inefficient! Especially for Blood Angels, who can load up the squad with 3 Inferno Pistols and a Power Fist (which comes out to roughly the same cost as a single ASM with Eviscerator!)

Edited February 10, 2018 by Kallas

[Schlitzaf]

Just realized, that should be 5 Pistols + 1 Krak Grenades. Let me fix that. Also I meant when I said 2 ASM = 1 Eviscerator. 4 Bolter Attacks = 1 Eviscerator. (4 > 2.66 > 1.33 > 0.44 vs 1 > 0.5 > 0.42).

 

Eviscerators are bad, no disagreement. If you remove Eviscerator from the equation, ASM are still worse compared to Crusaders and Hunters (through now then they have a better wound, sense Power Armor vs 4+ count to Crusaders! But it’s going to cost 2 Drops). 3.3 Melee Damage, 6 Pistols + Krak Grenade, 2.5 Specials* vs 3.2 Melee, 11 Pistols + Krak Grenade, 2 Specials, or 3 Melee Damage, 10 Bolters + Krak Grenade, 3.5 Specials.

 

(Crusader Squad equivalent is 204, Grey Hunters is about 205, and ASM is 219). Or price of a Marine more than the gold standard. I mean the fact they are comparable to the Gold Shandard is nice. And honestly had ASM been Troops, I think not be too wrong to say they be worth a more through comparison.

 

I need to do a more in depth comparison on that note. But essentially it comes down to, ASM are Fast not Troops. And even if they are comparable in effectiveness to the gold standard, you need 2 Drops to do so.

[Indefragable]

If you are going for a Brigade, then 3x ASM units can fill in the FA slot quite nicely. They also have great synergy if you’re running the Sanguinius/Sang Priest and are going for a Power Armor Overload effect. Secondly, they synergize well as screening units for Sang Guard to eat Amite, tie up Overwatch, or prevent counter-charge/Deep Striking.

 

When it comes to kitting them out, you want to keep a decent amount of melee capability balanced with any shootiness you add to them.

 

I find the trick is to keep them right around the 100pt mark.

 

All with jump:

-5man with inferno Sgt + 1x inferno pistol (add power sword to taste)

-5man with plasma pistol/power sword Sgt + 1 plasma pistol

-5man with power sword/chainsword Sgt + 1x plasma gun

 

I was a huge fan of the Meltacide ASM unit in 7th, but I think it’s too expensive/scitzo for our purposes in 8th. The only time I would really run melta guns on ASM would be in much larger games or if you are spamming Razorbacks/rhinos.

 

Though I don’t have enough battlefield data to give a definitive answer, I think 2x inferno pistols is the way to go at the moment as it maintains the # of melee attacks in the unit, adds some decent multi-D potency, and the range of the inferno isn’t an issue since you want them as up close and personal as possible.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Indefragable

[Brother Aether]

If you are going for a Brigade, then 3x ASM units can fill in the FA slot quite nicely. They also have great synergy if you’re running the Sanguinius/Sang Priest and are going for a Power Armor Overload effect. Secondly, they synergize well as screening units for Sang Guard to eat Amite, tie up Overwatch, or prevent counter-charge/Deep Striking.

 

I was scrolling through this post to see who was going to point this out!

 

I think the trick is that when we are comparing these, if you need/want to fill slots in a detachment for an admittedly CP-thirsty army, ASM can have a place. I think – as Indefragable mentions – a cost-effective, reasonable loadout in ASM squads can help provide affordable ways to fill in the FA tax on larger detachments (i.e., Brigades, the rest of an outrider detachment, etc) while still providing options to either (1) bring moderate levels of plasma to the table, (2) provide DS screens/speedbumps, or (3) JP units to capture objectives (if needed, with Upon Wings of Fire).

 

Critically, I don't claim to think they can do any particular job better than other troops (as mentioned above, they are less points efficient as plasma toters than company veterans and less point efficient than Bolter/CS DC for assault guys). Instead, these can fill the FA slot for a reasonable price while providing additional threats for your opponent. In the game I played with them (team-style game, so take it as you will ), they reminded me of the heavy bolter tactical squads outlined in other forum posts: people don't view them as a big threat, which prolonged their ability to do damage and provide a threat to cap objectives.

[Fahlnor]

They could seriously fix the problem of Assault Squads in an instant: make them Troops.

 

Now I can take them to build an all-jump Battalion if I like, their mobility to cap objectives is more valuable, their limited damage output is irrelevant. I genuinely cannot see a single downside to allowing Blood Angels to take them as Troops again.

 

It’s the single greatest tragedy of our Codex, in my opinion.