Best Anti-Tank for Blood Angels?

[Calistarius]

 

 

Press with just autocannons is interesting!

How does that work? Strength in numbers?

 

I think it’s actually a better option than what I was suggesting. It is strength in volume of shots and D4 each is better to me than d6+1. If you can achieve something that’s an average die roll without having to throw said die...I’d do that every time.

So you’re wounding most vehicles on 3+ or +4 and you’re gaining effectiveness against infantry units. I’m sold on autocannon preds as our top option now.

 

Autocannon Predators are decent but I still like lascannons for the AP and higher strength. You're unlikely to get more than a single killshot off in a game and once that's over S7 is going to struggle to get wounds off, and then struggle even more when most vehicles still get a 4+ save.

 

I also love being able to use lascannon fire to delete tough multi-wound infantry once the big stuff is gone. Terminators, Ork Nobs, Tau Battlesuits.... each will die much more easily to a lascannon than chipping away with autocannon fire.

I understand what you’re saying. However, with Lascannons you’re rolling 2 shots and if you’re lucky 2 wounds. Yeah you’ll hit on 3+ if stationary and then wound nearly every vehicle in 3+. Then your opponent for some reason misses both saves. You then roll a grand total of 2 damage on 2d6. That’s how my dice work most of the time.

 

I’m not disagreeing that Lascannons have the potential to some high damage, but I would take the guaranteed D3 over d6 if given the option. Besides, if we want to get down to it and your dice are hot you can put out up to 18 wounds per autocannon, or 24 with Killshot.

[Kallas]

I’m not disagreeing that Lascannons have the potential to some high damage, but I would take the guaranteed D3 over d6 if given the option. Besides, if we want to get down to it and your dice are hot you can put out up to 18 wounds per autocannon, or 24 with Killshot.

 

I really like Predator Autocannons myself (and they're definitely better in duplicates) but the kicker for me, using it as an anti-tank/monster weapon, is the AP more than anything. AP-1 :cuss sucks!  Its flat 3D sure is tasty, but it honestly feels best suited for targets like Tyranid Warriors/Hive Guard, anything with significant FNP (such as Death Guard) and anything with a strong Invulnerable save (such as Custodes) - that is quite a wide range, but still!

 

Against something like a Hive Tyrant the Lascannon is pretty swingy because of the 4++, making every wound a coin flip and negating the main advantage of the Lascannon. Something like a Carnifex, for example, is basically the same for the PAC, but hit much harder by the Lascannon due to the lack of an Invul; same as things like enemy Rhino chassis's; Leman Russ and Land Raiders are much worse for the PAC as that T8 really knocks the teeth out of it.

 

Personally, the PAC feels very much like a secondary source of anti-tank/monster (without Killshot, which turns it up a couple of notches, though its AP still keeps it sketchy) - good for piling on more shots with high Damage, but probably after any 'proper' AT/M has fired.

[Calistarius]

 

Personally, the PAC feels very much like a secondary source of anti-tank/monster (without Killshot, which turns it up a couple of notches, though its AP still keeps it sketchy) - good for piling on more shots with high Damage, but probably after any 'proper' AT/M has fired.

 

I'm just glad we have a decent amount of viable options!  You're definitely correct in all points.  To me it just comes down to personal preference I guess.  I've been let down too many times by rolling d6 for damage.  I guess it has left a poor taste for me! 

 

If we were getting down to technicalities, then I would likely include a tri-las and two autocannon/las preds for dealing with a variety of targets.  If I had the models of course.  It seems like I need to get a few more predators to really take advantage of this Killshot trend that I keep insisting on lol.

[Kallas]

I'm just glad we have a decent amount of viable options!  You're definitely correct in all points.  To me it just comes down to personal preference I guess.  I've been let down too many times by rolling d6 for damage.  I guess it has left a poor taste for me!

 

I hear you on random damage rolls flubbing! It definitely hurts, and that can make d6D weapons pretty swingy on its own.

 

I know that Crimson Ghost was talking about Predators with just PACs, but I honestly think that ponying up the points for the Heavy Bolter sponsons is well worth it. My current Predator loadout is 3x Twin Lascannon/Heavy Bolter Predators. While they don't pack the same wallop as the PAC does, they bring volume of fire that can help thin hordes (something Marines in general kind of need in a list) and when Killshot is a viable factor (particularly if you're bringing 4 for redundancy) they can actually pack in quite a lot of hurt (and in a similar vein to the PAC when you're targeting things like the Hive Tyrant, for example).

 

4 PAC/HB Predators comes in at 600 points (80 points more than just PACs), but those 80 points brings more firepower than 80 points of Devastators can (though only as much as slapping Heavy/Special weapons on to otherwise unequipped Tacticals/Devastators/other). That's a bunch of hordes killing power (on average that's another dead Guard squad, or 8+ dead Orks, etc) and when focused on to something Like Magnus or Mortarion the weight of fire helps to push through wounds (assuming one died before they fire, and one moves, they'll put an extra 3.6 wounds on to a 3++ Magnus, without Captain/Lieutenant buffs).

 

So I guess I'm saying bring Heavy Bolters for some light, additional AT/M firepower, if you're running Predators 

 

If we were getting down to technicalities, then I would likely include a tri-las and two autocannon/las preds for dealing with a variety of targets.  If I had the models of course.  It seems like I need to get a few more predators to really take advantage of this Killshot trend that I keep insisting on lol.

 

 

I honestly don't like the idea of a full on Annihilator Predator without something like Sergeant Chronus involved. It's a lot of points in one especially dangerous vehicle. It becomes the primary target for enemy AT weapons. I suppose that could be useful if you use it to semi distract your opponent's targeting priorities though. Personally, I'd prefer to spread my weaponry across multiple platforms. In my admittedly few games, I've found that, even without Killshot, two Las/Bolter Predators can do a lot of good work.

 

Killshot really is golden though. It's only 1CP and provides a huge boost to AT potential. It makes Predators really damn deadly and they don't even have to focus fire. Fitting the Predators into a list might be some work, but that's something that can be factored in - Predators are pretty solid in 8th, a fact I'm very happy about as I've loved them for a long time!

Edited February 13, 2018 by Kallas

[Calistarius]

All convincing points!  I might have to invest in a couple more standard predators then. However, I don't balk at putting a ton of points into a single unit.  I almost always have a 15 man DC squad, 5+ characters, and a Stormraven in my 2k point matches.  My opponent always has a few overtly deadly targets to choose from.  They better have a way to deal with all of them before turn 2.  I like it that way though.  I tend to play hyper aggressively, but that's my style.    

[Pendent]

The solution to the swingy nature of those D6 damage rolls is to throw more lascannons at the problem. 1D6 is swingy, 2D6 or 3D6 are much less so.

 

I've very happily been running two Annihilators and once I finally get around to buying a third kit I'll be running that with the same configuration. I want to be able to consistently kill a Predator equivalent in a single round of shooting and 12 lascannon shots is about the point where that will start happening.

 

Even if you load them out with hunter killer missiles and storm bolters (which you probably should if you intend to use killshot) you're spending less than 600 points for what should be as much anti-tank as you'll need in basically any game.

[Diagramdude]

Im surprised Slamguinius isn't getting as much mention here. He can pretty much take out anything at the cost of Command points, is it worth taking two DC captains one with angels wing for stuff with heavy overwatch, the other with Hammer of Baal? I think the Hammer of Baal is really underrated, hitting on 2s rerolling 1s is exceptionally reliable and you'll be wounding on 2s and 3s.

[Calistarius]

There in lies our differences my friend. I’m not willing to spend remotely close to that many points on solely anti-tank firepower. Paying for at least 12 Lascannons cuts into how many stabby and jet propelled things I can buy. I’m glad you’ve found success with it though! It doesn’t matter how we kill ‘em as long as it’s in Sanguinius’ name!

[brother_b]

I like shooty anti tank. Sure, my captain with hammer can put out the damage.

 

Unfortunately I have to get  him there, either by using a stratagem, or advancing him from cover to cover.

 

I'd much rather shoot from the firebase and leave my captain/dc/sang whoever as the wild card; when will they drop, where will they drop, who will they target? etc.

 

Also, I like two assault squads with meltas as a distraction and way to screen off or stop transports. Jumping in front of a rhino with say a bunch of khorne zerkers and then taking your shots is great. You might not kill the transport but then your opponent has to do something. Does he disembark the zerkers? Try to drive around your ASM screen? Or put shots at your ASM screen that takes other shots away from your backfield.

 

Anyway this is kind of our local meta, we have some zerker rushes and they're a huge priority.

[Karhedron]

Here's a question- how much do people factor in the number of drops into making decisions about what to use for anti-tank? Part of what I like about predators is that they bring a lot of firepower for only a single drop.

Less than I used now that finishing first is just +1 to go first rather than automatic. Given that the loser of the roll-off for first turn gets a chance to seize the initiative, the advantage of finishing your deployment first is marginal now.

[Panzer]

Yeah I don't really care much for drops either. Most of the time I prefer having 2x5 instead of 1x10 units etc. unless I struggle with boots on the ground and need to reduce my reserve drops.

[Pendent]

There in lies our differences my friend. I’m not willing to spend remotely close to that many points on solely anti-tank firepower. Paying for at least 12 Lascannons cuts into how many stabby and jet propelled things I can buy. I’m glad you’ve found success with it though! It doesn’t matter how we kill ‘em as long as it’s in Sanguinius’ name!

 

I have several local players that like to put a bunch of Khorne Beserkers in Rhinos and rush them at me. Being able to kill a few transports as he closes the distance is the difference between taking a coordinated charge from 30+ Beserkers and probably losing and being able to take them on piecemeal. Trying to kill those Rhinos in assault is not the best idea, to put it lightly.

 

I'm not sure if this is the thread for it but I'd really love to see what sort of list you like taking. I feel like I take a lot of jump infantry as it is but I'm always looking to see what other people are having their own success with. I have a very particular style of list building which can probably lead to me overlooking some stuff that is a perfectly viable option.

 

 

Edit: On the topic of drops I'm a little bit torn personally. First turn is still a pretty big advantage for us and while +1 doesn't sound like a lot it still means something like a 60% chance to go first. The other side of that is of course that there are a lot of incentives to use smaller squads these days.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Pendent

[Panzer]

Actually killing those Rhinos in Assault is the best idea if you manage to surround it so he can't disembark his Berzerker. ;)

[Calistarius]

 

There in lies our differences my friend. I’m not willing to spend remotely close to that many points on solely anti-tank firepower. Paying for at least 12 Lascannons cuts into how many stabby and jet propelled things I can buy. I’m glad you’ve found success with it though! It doesn’t matter how we kill ‘em as long as it’s in Sanguinius’ name!

 

 

I have several local players that like to put a bunch of Khorne Beserkers in Rhinos and rush them at me. Being able to kill a few transports as he closes the distance is the difference between taking a coordinated charge from 30+ Beserkers and probably losing and being able to take them on piecemeal. Trying to kill those Rhinos in assault is not the best idea, to put it lightly.

 

I'm not sure if this is the thread for it but I'd really love to see what sort of list you like taking. I feel like I take a lot of jump infantry as it is but I'm always looking to see what other people are having their own success with. I have a very particular style of list building which can probably lead to me overlooking some stuff that is a perfectly viable option.

 

 

Edit: On the topic of drops I'm a little bit torn personally. First turn is still a pretty big advantage for us and while +1 doesn't sound like a lot it still means something like a 60% chance to go first. The other side of that is of course that there are a lot of incentives to use smaller squads these days.

I’ll try to post on for you sometime soon. I don’t usually play with the same thing each game, but that’s because I get bored. I say keep doing what works for you though more importantly!

 

As for the Rhinos, I agree with what Panzer has said about surrounding them. It’s not as hard to do as it sounds, and it’s always a win when you can instantly kill 10 ‘zerkers.

[brother_b]

Are people really surrounding rhinos? It seems to me that this is not an easy thing to pull off. You either have to rush up the field and hope to withstand some shooting, or make a crazy charge of 9" + after dropping in at the end of movement.

 

I get it, it seems like a great strategy, but how many of you have really pulled this off? Am I just totally inept?

[Panzer]

The Tyranid player in my group does it regularly, yes. Since I play Primaris I don't do it obviously, but I will with my Kroot once the T'au Codex gets released.

[brother_b]

The Tyranid player in my group does it regularly, yes. Since I play Primaris I don't do it obviously, but I will with my Kroot once the T'au Codex gets released.

 

 

I'm guessing they're using all the mini-nids to do the work. I'm trying to see how I'll get that done with my MSU ASM units. I haven't finished or fielded my 15 man unit of DC. I was thinking that with the pre-game stratagem, 1st turn, and some fancy charge moves I could pull it off with DC. Same thing for dropping in and using the charge stratagem and then rolling big on 3 dice.

 

If I do get to pull it off I'm going to carefully explain to my opponent exactly what I'm doing, and why. I think that's important. This is not a tactic we've used before and I'd like to temper the disbelief and show the reason why/how for a tactic as good as this.

[Diagramdude]

With a 3D6 charge and 3" pile in, you should be able to drop in a large jump unit 9" away from a rhino and surround it. Just make sure you complete the surround by the end of your pile in move, because you won't consolidate until after it is dead.

 

Also do not get into base contact with the rhino, you want to be 0.99" away from the rhino on all sides so that your 1.26" bases make it impossible to disembark within 3" of the rhino yet more than 1" from your models.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Diagramdude

[Panzer]

You also don't have to surround it completely. As long as he can't place a model between your models it's fine. And even if he can place 1-2 models at the back because you didn't manage to surround it good enough it would still mean 8-9 dead models of the embarked unit. ^^

[Blackcadian]

You also don't have to surround it completely. As long as he can't place a model between your models it's fine. And even if he can place 1-2 models at the back because you didn't manage to surround it good enough it would still mean 8-9 dead models of the embarked unit. ^^

Hmm I just had a thought - would said 1-2 leftover models have to test for Leadership?

[Calistarius]

 

You also don't have to surround it completely. As long as he can't place a model between your models it's fine. And even if he can place 1-2 models at the back because you didn't manage to surround it good enough it would still mean 8-9 dead models of the embarked unit. ^^

Hmm I just had a thought - would said 1-2 leftover models have to test for Leadership?

The would. They sustained casualties during the phase.

[Blackcadian]

 

 

You also don't have to surround it completely. As long as he can't place a model between your models it's fine. And even if he can place 1-2 models at the back because you didn't manage to surround it good enough it would still mean 8-9 dead models of the embarked unit. ^^

Hmm I just had a thought - would said 1-2 leftover models have to test for Leadership?

The would. They sustained casualties during the phase.

That is super awesome

[Blackcadian]

So I‘ll be playing my arch enemy Eldar again this Sunday who is out for revenge and Im expecting either a Knight or 3 Fire Prisms for their equivalent of Killshot.

 

So I’m thinking about proxying 3-4 Predators for the stratagem, but then I fear it becomes a “who goes first wins” game? Plus what with him playing Alaitoc of course my chances of blowing up a Prism first go further down. Has anyone of you played against that combo yet or offer any advice? There will be Dark Reapers involved for sure, 10 if not 20 and probably a Hemlock.

[Blackcadian]

Sorry to spam this thread but I’ve just checked out the Xiphon and it sure looks like some solid AT, no? Basically its a flying lascannon pred that costs 50pts more but for that you get the missile launcher on top as well as FLY, +1 to hit when shooting at FLY, no -1 when moving and shooting heavy weapons and also the hard to hit rule. What do you think?

[Kallas]

So I‘ll be playing my arch enemy Eldar again this Sunday who is out for revenge and Im expecting either a Knight or 3 Fire Prisms for their equivalent of Killshot.

 

So I’m thinking about proxying 3-4 Predators for the stratagem, but then I fear it becomes a “who goes first wins” game? Plus what with him playing Alaitoc of course my chances of blowing up a Prism first go further down. Has anyone of you played against that combo yet or offer any advice? There will be Dark Reapers involved for sure, 10 if not 20 and probably a Hemlock.

I think there'll be a lot more variables that will answer that question really:

 - for one, what else in your list(s), both yours and his, as what other tools and threats you have will make a huge difference. Scouts, for example, will help you secure good landing zones - drop a couple early, right up in their grill (which will prevent Rangers, who deploy later) from zoning your deep strikers out, and it may also make them deploy/use their redeploy stratagem (Phantasm) differently and possibly give you an error to capitalise on; are you bringing a dangerous Descent of Angels unit (and of course beware of their intercept stratagem, if they have a Farseer near their Dark Reapers!!)?

 - what kind of terrain do you guys have/use? Do you have enough LOS blocking pieces? They are super important, even more so when fighting things like Dark Reapers and Fire Prisms, which would love to have a nice shooting gallery.

 - do you have other sources of AT in your list? If not, then those Predators are going to be priority targets - depending on how many drops you both have, you may want to keep them back to try and force their hand with Phantasm; alternatively, you may want to deploy them early, so that they set up stuff to best take advantage of their firepower, then counter strike with other things (Forlorn Fury DC maybe?)

 

A lot of things that can affect the game, though Alaitoc Eldar with Reapers and Prisms is not going to be happy fun times however it plays out!