start of a new Crusade

[Dusktiger]

so this week i stumbled upon the Helsreach videos, and was inspired to sit down and paint a force of Black Templars.  in truth, they were the first army that caught my eye when i started 40k, but as i started right when 5th was released, other players had told me to hold off until they received an updated codex to replace their 4th edition one.  since that never came to be, i never got around to making a templar force.

 

but the inspiration i got this week made me decide that i would take the primaris models i bought, and make them into templars.  I'm struggling with how to go about doing it though.  i'm certain i want to add some crusader squads, and possibly a chaplain/grimaldus, which im thinking of using the primaris chaplain to stand in as, once i get around to buying one.

 

perhaps some of you venerated brothers could help me with my build/wish/buy list here?

 

here's a list of the models i already have available, to know what i'm working with:

 

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [67 PL, 1043pts] ++

+ HQ +

Captain in Gravis Armor [7 PL, 134pts]:

. Boltstorm gauntlet, Master-crafted power sword

Primaris Captain [6 PL, 95pts]:

. Master-crafted auto bolt rifle, Power sword

Primaris Lieutenants [10 PL, 149pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant: Power sword
. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle

 

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 127pts]:

. 7x Intercessors with Bolt Rifles, 1 Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 127pts]:
. 7x Intercessors with Bolt Rifles, 1 Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

 

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]:

. 3x Aggressor with Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

+ Fast Attack +

Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 135pts]:

. 3x Inceptors with Assault bolters
 

+ Heavy Support +

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]:

. 5x Plasma incinerators

++ Total: [67 PL, 1043pts] ++
 

[Firepower]

Well, I wouldn't know how to go about crafting a Primaris Templar army, really.  There are very few Primaris that benefit from our Chapter Tactic in any significant way.

 

You certainly have a solid core of shooting units there, at least, which means you can burn points on melee units that would benefit from being Templars.  You could also take some shooty Crusader Squads for versatility (compared to the pigeon holed Primaris units), but that seems unnecessary to me.  As far as Primaris are concerned, the only stabby unit is Reivers.  Looking to proper marines, your heavy hitting options are Terminators, Ironclads, Vanguard, Centurions, and Veterans, off the top of my head. 

 

I quite like Drop Podding my Ironclads (C:SM Pod doesn't transport Dreadnoughts, you have to use the rules in the ForgeWorld book).  I load them with 2 Missiles, Frag Launchers, a Hurricane Bolter, and a Heavy Flamer.  They can blast infantry well, the Missiles are good for two quick anti armor shots on the drop, and they punch very big holes in tanks.

 

Terminators give you lots of options.  Assault Terminators are durable, hard to dislodge, and hit very hard.  Cataphractii are almost as durable, hit almost as hard, and can shoot to thin infantry squads.  

 

Vanguard are dealer's choice.  They can be outfitted for any role.  My biggest suggestion then is to magnetize the arms, so you can switch out weapons/shields to your tastes after some experimentation.

 

I've never used Centurions or Veterans, so I can't really help you there.

 

There is also the matter of vehicles.  As it stands, you're pure infantry.  That has some advantages.  Armies that take a lot of single shot, anti armor weaponry will be spending a lot of points for weapons that do relatively little to infantry.  However, armor brings a lot to the table.  If you do start getting tanks, make sure you take at least three at a minimum.  Just one LRC on the table will get targeted by every lascannon on the board.  An LRC, a pair of Ironclads, and Rhinos full of infantry (not really applicable for Primaris,, but you get the drift) make it harder for your opponent to focus his fire.

 

On the matter of Grimaldus, his main use is in buffing melee power.  There's little point to him if you aren't stabbing things.  Also, don't forget his extra attack aura doesn't work on weapons with a negative hit modifier (Fists and Hammers), because they can't roll 6's.  Helbrecht is beastly, with the reroll aura buffing both shooting and stabbing, and his +1 strength aura is also very handy.  The Champion hits way above his weight class if you can get him against a Monster or Character, and has a very cheap price tag.

 

With all that infantry you have, consider investing in a Cenobyte squad.  You're very vulnerable to battle shock from moral loss, and for just 6 points you have a large bubble of immunity.

 

That's all I got off the top of my head.  Welcome to the Eternal Crusade!  Your initiation paddlin' will come presently.  

[Dusktiger]

hmm, ok, that kinda goes with how i was thinking of expanding the force.  just quickly looking at the list and using my gravis captain to proxy helbrecht until i can kitbash a new one (dont like the current model for him), i got something like this:
 

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [104 PL, 1733pts] ++

+ HQ +

High Marshal Helbrecht [9 PL, 170pts]

Primaris Lieutenants [5 PL, 75pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle

The Emperor's Champion [4 PL, 75pts]

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]:
. 3x Aggressors w/Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 117pts]:
. 3x Aggressors w/Flamestorm Gauntlets

Ironclad Dreadnought [8 PL, 170pts]:
. Dreadnought chainfist
. Heavy flamer
. 2x Hunter-killer missile
. Hurricane bolter
. Ironclad Assault Launchers

Ironclad Dreadnought [8 PL, 170pts]:
. Dreadnought chainfist
. Heavy flamer
. 2x Hunter-killer missile
. Hurricane bolter
. Ironclad Assault Launchers

+ Fast Attack +

Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 135pts]:
. 3x Inceptors w/Assault bolter

+ Troops +

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 114pts]
. 2x Initiate
. Initiate w/Lascannon
. Initiate w/Plasma gun
. Sword Brother: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Crusader Squad [15 PL, 177pts]:
. 4x Neophyte w/Combat Knifes,
. 3x Neophyte w/Shotguns
. 5x Initiate w/Chainswords
. Initiate w/Power axe
. Sword Brother w/Power maul

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 127pts]:
. 7x Intercessors with Bolt Rifles, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 127pts]:
. 7x Intercessors with Bolt Rifles, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
 
+ Heavy Support +

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]:
. 5x Hellblaster w/Plasma incinerator
++ Total: [104 PL, 1733pts] ++
 

[Firepower]

Well, I can tell you the Ironclad will take a whole lot of fire being the only armor on the table, and they generally struggle to catch things that need smashing.  Vehicles have a much higher movement profile than they do.  Hence the Drop Pods.   Other than the Hellblasters, they seem to be the only real anti-armor units you have, and that's a problem if they can't catch what they're built to smash.  Perhaps consider deep striking Hammernators or Cataphractii as an alternative, if you don't have/can't afford Pods for the dreadnoughts.

 

I think you'd be better off with a simple Combi-Plasma rather than a sword and pistol for the SB.  That squad really doesn't want to get into melee, so the sword isn't necessary.

[CantusMaximGloria]

I'll chime in with some info on Centurions, at least of the assault variety since I've found a great love of them lately. So you are paying a very hefty price point for a model without an invulnerable save or a way of chasing anything down, but you trade those advantages in for even more firepower, above average marine toughness, a good armor save and melee punch. Each centurion in the squad comes with either 2 flamers or meltas and also has the option of either centurion assault launchers or hurricane bolters for your ranged options. In melee each Centurion has 2 attacks (3 on the leader) with siege drills that punch as hard as a demolisher cannon but with a fixed amount of damage and the penetration of a melta! Best part about the drills is that there isn't a to hit malus for those siege drills either so you can generally count on them to penetrate the enemies armor. Centurions might not be the most competetive choice but their power in ranged fighting and melee more than makes up for it. I have had them nearly one shot Leviathan Dreadnoughts, Bray'arth Ashmantle and most heavy tanks just from the meltas and our reroll on charges will make sure anything stupid enough to stick around for melee will realize their mistake in very, very short order.

Realistically these models are going to need a transport and what better way to transport them than with a LRC! Now the LRC isn't the pinnacle of armored offense against other tanks but it has enough DAKKA strapped to it to clear infantry without a problem and that's before the centurions hop out from inside! If you have your LRC stuffed full of Centurions and in range or better yet rapid fire range of the hurricane bolters then you can expect to clear out anything within range with an actual bucket of dice. Centurions are one of my favorite units this edition just for the amount of fire the hurl at the enemy and if you aren't averse to having some overlap with your aggressors I think they are a really fun addition to any army.

 

Btw welcome to the Eternal Crusade!

[Kisada]

I personally don't see BT rules being very helpful for primaris.  They just don't do enough in close combat so who cares if you get to re-roll to charge.

I've been using them with Imperial Fist chapter tactics and the ignore cover has been more useful to me than any charging would be.

[Firepower]

Yeah, if I ever take the plunge and bring a Primaris unit or two into my Crusade, they will be painted at least partially as Fists (like the Heresy era Templars). One unit of Aggressors isn't going to justify a whole new faction, but if the Primaris collection ever grew, it's good to have a back up plan ;)

[SWORD BROTHER RYAN]

As a relatively "Old School" player, my first thought is 'Get an Emperor's Champion!'

 

Otherwise, Tactical Marines kitted out with Bolt pistols and Chainswords, and at least 5 "scouts" kitted with BP and Combat Knives. This is the core of a Crusader Squad, and definitely fills the close combat support your list seems to lack. A couple of these would enhance the effectiveness of your army considerably.

 

You'll need troop transports as well. Repulsors for your Primaris, Rhinos/Razorbacks/Land Raiders for standard troops. Heavy Support is also needed, and I highly recommend the Predator for this role. Mine are built with all around Lascannons for a heavy punch at range.

 

Last, but most definitely not least, Air Support! Any of the C:SM flyers will do nicely, but beware of the Storm Raven's price. Unless you're transporting troops AND a Dreadnought, Then stick with Stormtalons for ground pounding and Stormhawks for dealing with enemy flying units.

 

There's my advice. You have a definitely hardcore start with Primaris, and that will help with range. Beef out close combat, and welcome, once again, to The Eternal Crusade!

[Honda]

First off, welcome to the Eternal Crusade, brother. It is good to have you join us.

 

I've been using them with Imperial Fist chapter tactics and the ignore cover has been more useful to me than any charging would be.

 

 

I would have to agree with the above sentiments. I started off using my Primaris as BT and although the Intercessors and Hellblasters do well in a fire support role, they can do this job better with IF chapter tactics. This is what I do with my Primaris.

 

That being said, I think Primaris IFs working in conjunction with BTs are a very solid combination. BT Terminators, Crusade squads, Dreadnoughts, and IF Intercessors and Hellblasters make for a very interesting tide list.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what you do.

 

Cheers,

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Seeing as we get a thread like this start up about once a week at the moment can we not consider creating a sort of Tactica Black Templars:8th Edition and pinning it to the front page? We seem to be rehashing the same very good information for each new player when we could have it all ready to go on page 1?

[Dusktiger]

that would certainly be very helpful.  i know myself that i had been perusing the army lists alot, but its difficult to tell what's being taken because its effective (and why it is), and what's just people taking units based on personal taste.

[redmapa]

Seeing as we get a thread like this start up about once a week at the moment can we not consider creating a sort of Tactica Black Templars:8th Edition and pinning it to the front page? We seem to be rehashing the same very good information for each new player when we could have it all ready to go on page 1?

 

I think the "8th ed and Templars" thread is a bit of that, its more of a brain storm of ideas rather than a Tactica but I dont think our situation is so clear that we can create a Tactica right now so thats the best we have, a pool of ideas.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I can't see how it's going to get much clearer than what we know right now, there won't be any minor changes until the next FAQ in March(?) Or in Chapter Approved in December. It doesn't need to be in depth, just the basic overview, for instance the big topics:

 

We have the best chance of any chapter of getting into combat, but we don't hit any harder than other C:SM chapters when we get there.

 

Our relic kicks arse. A 9 inch re-roll bubble is epic, especially if you have a shooty firebase to stick a Marshall in the middle of.

 

The Champion is cheap as chips and punches way above his weight against characters and Monsters.

 

Crusader squads are the most flexible basic power armoured troop unit in the codex, just don't rely on them to win combats, weight of numbers helps, but leaves you vulnerable to Morale checks.

 

You know, stuff like that. We could probably agree some things in the thread and edit them into the original post of we reach any sort of consensus.

[Dusktiger]

Brothers!  to show i am an initiate with the equal amount of ZEAL of any fellow brother, i give you my counts-as Helbrecht; one that has decided to armour himself in gravis armour to suit his stature better.

 

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Gravis armored Helbrecht looks promising.

[Dusktiger]

some better photos now:

 

[Marshal Laeroth]

Welcome to the Eternal Crusade Brother!  Glad to see reinforcements join our ranks.  Now report to your initiate for your ritual training.

[Schlitzaf]

Welcome! To echo what others have said, Primaris play nicely as a fire support role for our boys. A Black Templar List

3 Playstyle, fundamentally defined by your troop/Crusader Squad

-MSU-Razorspam (because we can Heavy/Special/Special). This list is easily double Battlelion, and focus is on shooty early game then shift gears to melee to finish. Your force include a cadre of heavy hitters like Assault Terminators coming down turn 2-3 to provide counter assault and push

-Rhino Rush (3-5 Rhino mounted 6-4 Squads, I’d kit them as HeavyBolter, Plasma, SB w/Chain&Plasma (I find 2 PowSword attacks are just too unreliable, you need 3. Other folks thoughts differ here, you could try Pow/Special/Pow&Special. But sense you can actually shoot when you disembark you prefer the projection of firepower). This list is a classic Templar and Marine list in general. Your Crusaders (or Intercessors) move to center and claim tactical position then dig in. The above list is more defensive as you are focused on avoidance of bumper cars. Here your Rhino’s aren’t worried about bumper cars, so you can play more aggressively. This is a midfield not an Assault list. Your job is dictate flow, by forcing the response not force tempo. You need fluidity and battlefield awareness. Sense Rhino Mounted means, if your opponent disables one of your Rhinos, Squads inside is stranded from support. Also it takes two and half turns to redeploy. One to get in and then you have to get out at start of movement. So if you need your tank into range to for squad to embark you have to wait two turns to disembark at target destination. Foot Units while move slower, aren’t restrained in that manner.

-Tide, 3-4 Tide Squads of 13-15 Models. Or my personal preference 2 Tide Squads and 2 Intercessors. Cenos are a Must. This list is should be using Pow/Pow/Special/Special, and Special is Flamers or Melta. First turn sometimes turn 2 you will be advancing. Through in most objective based games. You won’t need to turn 2. Remember objectives then murder fun times. This list is a bulldozer. Your focus is on charging the tide and getting it engaged. A tide squad damage potential is similar to a Vangaurd Veteran. This list where others have mobility via transports or elite deep strikes, your focus in on bodies. Terminators? Too expensive. Use a couple Reivar Squads. You need the saturation of fire. If enemy bears all their guns, you’re tide be very sad. Don’t let them. Take flankers, Bikers, Scouts or cheap allied infantry are good here. Those 12 Heavy Bolters might have eaten a Crusader Squad. If 8 of them have to shoot your bikes or scouts, that is a lot less guns shooting your boys. If they do shoot your boys, your flankers will engage and tie them up. Then drop your Deep Strikes or Outflanks. Cheap units like Reivars that present a similar threat. It’s like Tyranid three wave strategy; First Lictors and Stealers, then your Trygons and Meiotic Spore Units, finally your walking monsters and gaunts. This list requires least finesse but just as hard to play. You can only move 6 + advance, a singles wasted movement is a dead turn.

 

Primaris based lists don’t gain too much from Keyword BT, beside the Crusader’s Helm, but if you plan on adding some of the older Astartes. I’d keep them as (Black Templars), because rerolling charges if plan to engage makes failing a 6-8 Charge almost impossible and can feel confident. I cannot tell you how often I had to reroll failed charges at 6-8 Mark and then succeeded. Also if the chance of success is 33% i.e if you need CP reroll into 5/6. Just use our tactics. So if you roll a 4 and 1 for a Deep Strike Charge. Just use our tactics, ignoring first role is 27% v 33% not much of a difference. Or something I’d personally spend a CP on.

 

————-

Our resident tactician, Laeroth updated implausible nature and gave an excellent breakdown. And added a third variant, drop pod: https://www.implausiblenature.net/bt-101-where-to-start.html

[Dusktiger]

so here's a small update on some of the painting progress:

 

 

An inceptor, mostly done:

 

 

my Counts-as Emperor's Champion:

 

 

and the Aggressors so far:

[Dusktiger]

got myself a box of reivers this week, here's my Sgt for the squad:

 

[Bjorn Firewalker]

The Reiver SGT looks promising.

[Ray_K]

Looking forward to watching this unfold. I'm also getting back into the game with some inherited Primaris Marines. Great advice listed above!

[Dusktiger]

So i have a bit of a conundrum here.

 

Im thinking about playing my templars in a tourney in june/july, and its a 1500pt event.  But i cant decide what to fill out my list with to get there. 

 

I'm hoping maybe you guys have some suggestions?

 

Here's what i have to choose from so far:

 

High Marshal Helbrecht

Emperor's Champion

Primaris LT with Stalker Bolt Rifle

 

5 Intercessors with a Grenade Launcher

5 Intercessors with a Grenade Launcher

5 Crusaders with a Flamer, Power Sword, Sword Brethren with Combi-Flamer and Power Sword

(this one i'm trying to convert 5 novitiates from MK4 armour to add to the list wielding chainswords and bolt pistols; only have 3 so far)

 

5 Reivers with grav Chutes and combat knives

5 Reivers with grav Chutes and combat knives

3 Aggressors with Boltstorm gauntlets and grenade launchers

 

3 Inceptors with assault heavy bolters.

 

I also have a Land Raider Crusader i dont use much anymore in my red scorpions collection that i could salvage and repaint as a BT vehicle.

[Dusktiger]

Just a little update here with some pics.

 

I've planning on signing up for a local 1500pt event in July, and this is the initial list i'm thinking of taking.  Though i'm on the fence about it as-is, or if i should drop the VVs with chainswords, and the LT in exchange for taking Helbrecht and adding power swords to the intercessors.

 

 

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment (+3CP) [86 PL, 1496pts] ++
Black Templars

+ HQ (3/3) +

Captain [5 PL, 94pts]: Power axe, Storm shield, The Crusader's Helm


Primaris Lieutenant [5 PL, 75pts]: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle

The Emperor's Champion [4 PL, 75pts]

+ Troops (3/6)+

Crusader Squad [8 PL, 137pts]:
. 4x Neophyte w/Combat Knife
. 2x Initiate w/Chainsword
. Initiate w/Power sword
. Initiate w/Flamer
. Sword Brother: Combi-flamer, Power sword

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle, 5x Intercessor

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle, 5x Intercessor

+ Elites (6/6) +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 3x Aggressors, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Primaris Apothecary [4 PL, 68pts]

Reiver Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Heavy Bolt Pistols, Combat Knifes, Grav Chutes
. 5x Reivers

Reiver Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Heavy Bolt Pistols, Combat Knifes, Grav Chutes
. 5x Reivers

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 152pts]: Jump Pack
. 2x Space Marine Veterans: Bolt pistol, Thunder hammer
. 2x Space Marine Veterans: Power sword, Storm shield
. Veteran Sergeant: Grav-pistol, Power sword

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 102pts]: Jump Pack
. 4x Space Marine Veterans: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Veteran Sergeant: 2x Lightning Claw

+ Fast Attack (1/3)  +

Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 135pts]: 3x Inceptors, Assault Bolters


+ Heavy Support (1/3) +

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: 5x Hellblasters, Plasma incinerator

++ Total: [86 PL, 1495pts] ++

[Dusktiger]

Finished my Emperor's Champion today: