Making TWC viable

[Gherrick]

I used to love TWC, and I agree they were a bit too good in 7e. In 8e, I have yet to field a single unit, mostly due to having more cost-efficient options available (i.e. Wulfen and WG bikers).

 

I'd love to see a fix, but I don't see anything obvious, other than borrowing traits from wulfen (advance+charge and reroll failed charges). Perhaps some special rule that is fitting to cavalry, such as preventing withdrawals or at least making it a contest (speed-based?) instead of automatic. Certainly an in-built flanking rule seems obvious, but we got precisely 1 model with that in the index, and nothing changed in CA for TWC other than SS dropping 5pts...

[Yoyo ninja]

I think they need a points drop. They are so expensive for their output. Im used to seeing them chew through anything they catch from 7th, but this ed they seem to be best for hunting infantry. They are so expensive that you need to kill a LOT of infantry to make them earn their points back.

 

I'm currently having success using them as a distraction carnifex because they have staying power. Give them SS's and Chainswords and the pack leader gets wolf Claws or a TH. Run them at the enemy. I have used them to tank for the rest of my army even against the likes of Tau and they come out alright.

[Guest]

Every game I've watched they seem to pull their weight against infantry. They do require SS which should be 5pts not 15pts, as necessary as the shields are. The problem is people loading them up on expensive weapons. They are no longer the anti-everything they were in 7th.

[Kasper_Hawser]

They don't need to make them viable. They need to be squatted. 

 

........

 

OK, got my anti-TWC vibe in. Now for serious talk. Yes, they're grossly point inefficient with nearly any paid weapon, but especially stormshields. regular cost stormshields should have been enough since their cost is rather expensive, if not astromical. One model is nearly character level cost.

 

The other thing that they really have going against them, is the loss of 12" movement AND fleet. 10" movement is snail pace compared to most vehicles and without reroll advances or charges, they suck even more.

 

If I were to make them viable (and I really don't.....damn it, can't stop my anti-twc vibe, bear with me guys), I would say a slight point decrease along normal storm shield costs, and a reroll for advance and chage, but not the abilitity to advance and charge. This will be balanced by their rather pitiful number of attacks and still expensive cost.

[Yoyo ninja]

For chasing infantry 10" move is pleanty, even Eldar infantry don't move that fast, and most of the time Chainswords are more than enough, just weight of attacks is enough to do damage.

They don't exactly lack attacks, they have 2 attacks a piece (3 with a Chainsword) and the pack leader has 3 base, then each thunderwolf puts out 3 each. A basic pack of 3 dudes will put out 16 attacks a turn, more if you arm then with Chainswords. That will gut most basic infantry units so retaliation will be shrugged off with SS's.

[Kasper_Hawser]

For chasing infantry 10" move is pleanty, even Eldar infantry don't move that fast, and most of the time Chainswords are more than enough, just weight of attacks is enough to do damage.

They don't exactly lack attacks, they have 2 attacks a piece (3 with a Chainsword) and the pack leader has 3 base, then each thunderwolf puts out 3 each. A basic pack of 3 dudes will put out 16 attacks a turn, more if you arm then with Chainswords. That will gut most basic infantry units so retaliation will be shrugged off with SS's.

 

Perhaps, but with most vehicles being 12" without advancing, in comparison TWC will struggle to keep up wihout rerolling advances.

 

Maybe my approach is different, for context my lists always has 3 Rhinos full of either hunters or BCs, and most turns, I'm advancing to the midfield which I can do in Turn 1. The TWC won't reach midfield by Turn 2.

[Yoyo ninja]

I see where your coming from, I thought you meant chasing down enemy vehicles. I agree some kind of re-rolls or fixed advance speed would be great for them. Maybe some kind of stratagem that let's them out flank, like on the hunt, would be great as well/instead of.

[patchestheclown]

I was on the fence about thunderwolf cavalry myself but really enjoyed bringing a small squad of them during my games in 7th. In 8th though I have found them struggling a lot in games due to base S4 and no AP on their attacks. I play vs a lot of marines and with 3 attacks each, wounding on 4s and then marines getting full 3+ save I find that my TW just bounce off even 5 man tactical squads. (10 attacks, ~7 hit, ~4 wound, 1 unsaved) Even with the 3 S5 ap -1 wolf attacks (9 attacks, ~6 hit, 4 wound, 2 unsaved) I find them lacking the ability to dish out the damage (though that could just be bad luck on my part) 

 

I've started running them with SS and Frost Swords (for that +1 S) and although pricey I've been having some great success with them because anything without a decent invuln save is in trouble, they do lose an attack but i find the S and AP to be worth it. (7 attacks, ~5 hit, ~4 wound, 3-4 unsaved + wolf attacks). I've also been using the CA stratagem to deepstrike them around turn 2 when they are within the AOE of my wulfen to give them re-roll to charge to help make sure they get in there.

[Arentius]

Running 5 with Harald and a wolf priest on bike is great, 3 of them with double wolf claws and 2 with claw and shield. They mince all infantry and even lighter vehicles quite nicely thanks to rerolling attacks and all failed wounds. (wounds of 1 for the mounts)

 

If I need bigger things taken down I have a unit of wulfen with hammers and shields. With the priest and SS i've found them quite hard to have removed and they tend to earn their points back

[The Saint Ragnar]

[snip]

I've also been using the CA stratagem to deepstrike them around turn 2 when they are within the AOE of my wulfen to give them re-roll to charge to help make sure they get in there.

 

The CA strategem is only able to be used on infantry units unfortunately.

 

I think what the TWC need is a points decrease. They are too expensive to fill the roles that they can which is either anti-infantry or anti-tank/TEQ.

 

Anti-Infantry:

 

If you kit them out all basic with SS/CS (I include the SS because I see it as a necessary buy to keep them alive to do their job) that puts them at 150 points. What you get with that is 10 S4 AP0 attacks and 9 S5 AP-1 attacks and a 10" movement. They have to start right on the edge of the deployment zone and if you are lucky with your deployment map, advance roll first Turn, and your opponent has an infantry unit close to the edge of their deployment zone you can get a Turn 2 charge.

 

The issue is that for 150 points you can get a 3 man squad of Inceptors and a Cyberwolf. Inceptors come with 18 S5 AP-1 shots and 10" movement and they can come down into threat range Turn 1. The Cyberwolf is only 3 S4 AP-1 attacks and 10" move and it has the same start position as the TWC but given the smaller size model it can run around and hide easier plus it has a built in re-roll to charge that the TWC does not have. 

 

For 180 points which is only 30 points over their cost you can get 5 WG bikers with SB which pump out 20 shots at rapid fire at S4 AP0 and when they charge in they have 16 S4 AP0 attacks with their chainswords. They are much faster at 14" movement so they can blitz up the board to be in threat range Turn 2 easily, maybe even Turn 1 to put out 10 S4 AP0 shots. There are other combinations for the points but the main point is there are just much better options.

 

Anti-Tank/TEQ:

 

As I was typing through this section I realized it was getting pretty long so I deleted it. Short and sweet "Just don't" there are so many other anti-tank/TEQ options available for cheaper point cost than 198 points (TH/SS). To name a few you have Hellblasters, Dakka Predator, Wulfen, WG (Bikes or Jump Packs), etc.

 

They just do not have the attacks, movement, or rules for their point cost. So I think if they were to drop the points and give a re-roll to advances and charges (not the ability to advance and charge) that would make them a thought for an include in a list. I have shefled mine for now as I have them built with TH/SS and that is just silly. I could take the arms off and put another option on but I want to wait for the Codex to do that.

[TiguriusX]

Great analysis Ragnar.  The key is current TWC are no longer a deathstar type unit designed to take on all targets.  Losing that flexibility has put them below some of the other tools at our disposal.  Sure TWC can mulch infantry...but other units can do it better.

 

For example, as my dedicated anti infantry unit I am personally planning to field 5 wolf guard bikers with 4xcombi-flamers/storm shields and 1xcombi-flamer/thunder hammer.  I intend to use them to clear hordes off the table and they can mostly ignore any special tricks and rules that make hordes hard to hit.  Yes those stupid plague bearers left an impression on me and my fire guard will have 5D6 auto hits regardless of modifiers. 

 

They run about 100 points more than a TWC unit but have much much more flexibility and utility including a larger threat bubble due to their ability to fire at range.

 

I will definitely report back on my findings.  They should hit the field in 2 to 3 weeks.  Bjorn has told them to stay on the bench b/c he wants to join my escalation first.

[Gherrick]

My go-to loadout on my TWC used to be WC/SS on the non-leader, and TH/SS on the leader. IMO, having a elite unit using a common weapon as a CS seems a bit...inglorious. This loadout however, is very cost ineffective in 8e, even with the cost reduction in CA. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing the option of combi's (like other WG units) for TWC because at least then you could get a decent ranged threat option.

[patchestheclown]

oh drat, good eyes for that CA stratagem Saint Ragnar... back to the drawing board I suppose

[The Saint Ragnar]

[snip]

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing the option of combi's (like other WG units) for TWC because at least then you could get a decent ranged threat option.

 

I like the sound of that idea being able to equip the for a range threat. I certainly makes an interesting idea if they reduced points and gave us combi-weapons. Then the number of attacks they have could be considered a bonus when somebody tries to charge them. I think that mental switch could make them turn into a viable choice. Maybe not as point efficient as a WG biker squad (depending on point reductions to TWC) but definitely more rule of cool with some kick to back it up. 

 

Actually, if you were to look at the point cost now for them using the same point value for combi-weapons as regular WG:

 

WG biker squad with 5x combi-plas and SS comes to 270 points with that you get 11 S4 AP0 attacks in combat and 10 rapid fire shots at either S7/8 AP-3 (depending on overcharge) or S4 AP0. Your wound pool for the unit is 10 which is pretty beefy and you have T5.

 

TWC with 5x combi-plas and SS comes to 325 points with that you get 11 S4 AP0 attacks AND 15 S5 AP-1 attacks in combat and 10 rapid fire shots at either S7/8 AP-3 (depending on overcharge) or S4 AP0. your wound pool for the unit is 15 which is pretty nice compared to the WG bikers and the same T5.

 

Is the 55 point difference worth it? That is debatable but it certainly looks like a damn good argument to bring the TWC now as they do not need to get all the way up the board to start being effective. What you get for those 55 points is 5 wounds to the unit and an extra 15 S5 AP-1 attacks and what you lose is 4" of movement and a guaranteed 6" advance. I think if you were to give a re-roll to advances and charges and drop the point cost per rider by maybe 2-3 points this is suddenly a pretty good looking choice for a special weapons platform for us. Perhaps this is why we do not have access to combi-weapons on them?

[Guest]

 

[snip]

I've also been using the CA stratagem to deepstrike them around turn 2 when they are within the AOE of my wulfen to give them re-roll to charge to help make sure they get in there.

 

The CA strategem is only able to be used on infantry units unfortunately.

 

I think what the TWC need is a points decrease. They are too expensive to fill the roles that they can which is either anti-infantry or anti-tank/TEQ.

 

Anti-Infantry:

 

If you kit them out all basic with SS/CS (I include the SS because I see it as a necessary buy to keep them alive to do their job) that puts them at 150 points. What you get with that is 10 S4 AP0 attacks and 9 S5 AP-1 attacks and a 10" movement. They have to start right on the edge of the deployment zone and if you are lucky with your deployment map, advance roll first Turn, and your opponent has an infantry unit close to the edge of their deployment zone you can get a Turn 2 charge.

 

The issue is that for 150 points you can get a 3 man squad of Inceptors and a Cyberwolf. Inceptors come with 18 S5 AP-1 shots and 10" movement and they can come down into threat range Turn 1. The Cyberwolf is only 3 S4 AP-1 attacks and 10" move and it has the same start position as the TWC but given the smaller size model it can run around and hide easier plus it has a built in re-roll to charge that the TWC does not have.

 

For 180 points which is only 30 points over their cost you can get 5 WG bikers with SB which pump out 20 shots at rapid fire at S4 AP0 and when they charge in they have 16 S4 AP0 attacks with their chainswords. They are much faster at 14" movement so they can blitz up the board to be in threat range Turn 2 easily, maybe even Turn 1 to put out 10 S4 AP0 shots. There are other combinations for the points but the main point is there are just much better options.

 

Anti-Tank/TEQ:

 

As I was typing through this section I realized it was getting pretty long so I deleted it. Short and sweet "Just don't" there are so many other anti-tank/TEQ options available for cheaper point cost than 198 points (TH/SS). To name a few you have Hellblasters, Dakka Predator, Wulfen, WG (Bikes or Jump Packs), etc.

 

They just do not have the attacks, movement, or rules for their point cost. So I think if they were to drop the points and give a re-roll to advances and charges (not the ability to advance and charge) that would make them a thought for an include in a list. I have shefled mine for now as I have them built with TH/SS and that is just silly. I could take the arms off and put another option on but I want to wait for the Codex to do that.

You only looked at offensive capabilities. What about defensive? With that SS (which many people agree should be 5 pts not 15pts, and make the TWC only 120 pts) they are going to stay in the fight alot longer than any other unit.

 

The SW basked in the strength of the TWC for far too long in 7th, and now GW seems have punished them. This was my fear about going to 8th was making a viable army without TWC or Wulfen as I expected both to be nerfed to be subpar.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Jarl Caldersson

[The Saint Ragnar]

 

You only looked at offensive capabilities. What about defensive? With that SS (which many people agree should be 5 pts not 15pts, and make the TWC only 120 pts) they are going to stay in the fight alot longer than any other unit.

 

The SW basked in the strength of the TWC for far too long in 7th, and now GW seems have punished them. This was my fear about going to 8th was making a viable army without TWC or Wulfen as I expected both to be nerfed to be subpar.

 

 

Fair point that I went only with the offense and I agree that with the SS they are a tough nut to crack, unless the opponent has something can hard counter them like weight of dice from small arms fire or psychic powers like Null Zone or Death Hex. Without the SS saves they die pretty quickly and even against small arms unless the rolling is really hot you will lose guys.

 

I have brought them a couple of games as more tough distraction units but they have never really performed so well as that that I would consider them an include in most lists. One time they just died to weight of fire from Guardsmen and the other they got Death Hexed Turn 1 and blasted to bits by a Havoc squad. Not every list will have counters to the but most lists have some answer to dealing with them unless you kit them out with the points to have offensive punch. My friend played a game the other day where his unit of three just got tar pitted the entire game and could not break free.

 

It was a bad move on his part but the fact that they could not break out was just a kind of "Wow" moment for me and why I have shelved them for now. I prefer units that have a good mix of offense and defense that way they can serve a couple of roles on the table. Right now the TWC just only seem to provide a good defense which can be useful, no doubt about that, but I only have a unit of three and I would prefer those points elsewhere personally.

 

Right now I feel like Wulfen are still a strong force on the table with the way the rules have changed and their CA point decrease. They die in shooting just as easier than the TWC but they have a lot more ways to get into combat and rules to help them get there. Once they are there, they hit whatever they charge like a freight train and then pile in, die, and do it again on another squad.