What makes Eldar so powerful every edition?

[chapter master 454]

So may as well see what happens here with the question being raised for marines but I suppose for eldar, it's the reverse:

 

What makes eldar so powerful?

 

As far as I can remember, everytime eldar get put on a table they seem to dominate and are often considered by all to be the most powerful faction to play bar none. Funny enough, it feels like the Eldar have the most options in list building as it seems to take more effort and skill to make a list that is outright bad while even a beginning player will be able to bring lists that promise incredible hitting power.

 

However, what causes this? What aspect of Eldar seems to make this a recurring theme with them edition after edition?

This edition the big one is Dark Reapers but behind those god tier sniper gods of death to all, there is a whole cast of equally broken units and weapons ready to take their place (Hemlock super good just for its heavy D-Scythes, Wraithguard and blades are just terrifying and just between Banshees and fire dragons you can take down anything you like).

 

I personally have always said that Eldar's biggest weakness is the reason they are so strong and that is because the weakness requires a big counter balance swing in the other direction. They are fragile and can't really take hits like other races can however to compensate they get the best armour in the game: They never get hit because they hit so hard you never get to swing back. Eldar could be T1 with a 6+ save and they would still be god tier because their weakness is covered by how obscene their weapons and units are in rules. Each special unit coming with some sort of mechanic that spits in the face of the rules so hard the rulebook failed a 2++ re-rollable and took 2D6 Macro wounds. Banshees ignore overwatch, Dark Reapers ignore shooting (they just hit! Feels like it anyway!) and from there various units just get to run around with stupid amounts of firepower. Striking Scorpions may be second fiddle to banshees but I could see them being able to shred light infantry slick quick, especially if backed by their lord, Warp Spiders are just annoying but do pack a nasty punch and lets talk about how the Fire Prism can take down bastions and buildings more effectively like a vindicator!

 

All of those units hit like dump trucks to the point that I am surprised people who play against eldar get a turn! (faced many lists in the past of former editions and it felt the same way: You never had a chance to do anything against it).

 

So what are the thoughts? What makes Eldar so disgustingly powerful or is it just an illusion...just the way they like it :P

[Marshal Wolfhart]

I think what makes Eldar so "absurdly" powerful this edition is bias. And Ynnari. But the latter is a travesty all of its own...

I had a game a few days ago where my opponent rolled crappy and afterwards half the store had a discussion how Eldar brought so much AP-4 it's op. That AP-4 was brighlances on wave serpents and warwalkers and a few dcannon support weapons. If those are op, bury this codex and be done with it.

In a more serious manner, it's the possibilty to pick a few key units and buff them with psychic and stratagem support to reliably do their job. And make that single unit, your enemy wants dead REALLY BAD, harder to kill.

Right now, Reapers are undercosted and shining spears might be too. Anything else is properly costed or even too expensive but made worth through synergy. I still wait to see simeone field Scorpions against any seriously competitive list and do work outside lucky dice day...

[GawFang]

I like to think that Eldar generally attracts better or experienced players. I don't play huge amounts of games but when I visit games workshop I can't think of a time I saw someone playing Eldar who wasn't a veteran gamer.
Eldar do have strong units but if you don't get the synergy right or have some bad dice rolls things can quickly go wrong. You say how good Banshees are but have you seen them fight an army made up of T6+ units? They might make it into combat but have very little chance of actually killing anything and they soon die if they don't kill their target.

Also before the codex that introduced wraithknights, I think it was 5th Edition, Eldar were really rather bad.

Also Eldar players have to put up with a lot of units being Finecast so should at least get a bonus for that!

[Toxichobbit]

Also before the codex that introduced wraithknights, I think it was 5th Edition, Eldar were really rather bad.

 

Eldar were definitely not bad before the Wraithknight (which was introduced in 6th). Not even close to bad. The exact opposite in fact. Eldar have been the one of the best, if not the best army in 40k for the majority of editions. Eldar losses pre-5th were entirely due to the players, not the Codex. They were very strong in the tournament scene in 2nd and 4th editions, whether with Exarch delivery armies (2nd) or indestructable Falcon spam (4th). They won the first two major 40k tournaments (literally the first two ever held) and had an Eldar play off in WD between the 1st and 2nd year winners. They were damn strong in 3rd too although not to the level of 2nd and 4th. Again with Falcons plus Ulthwé Seer and starcannon spam they were more than strong enough to compete at top tables.

 

The only edition I remember them being shakey was 5th, although I barely played 5th so I have no idea what was powerful other than Guard. So it's more a case of my memory of 5th is shakey, rather than Eldar being bad (they might have been, they might not have been, I dunno).

 

Edit: I think I still have the WD with the Eldar play off in it.

[Aothaine]

I feel it is their mobility. They can deploy in a way that makes it very difficult to get more than 30-40% of your force into a position to do damage to them. Then on their turn they can move everything out into firing range and do what they do. They have special units that ignore important rules and have the damage to laugh off any attempts to resist their damage potential.

 

When ever you are looking at a faction and trying to figure out why it is so powerful or dominating the leader boards in competitive play there are usually clear reason why. As is the case with the current Eldar codex. However, GW is doing a good job balancing things and will continue to do so. 

 

I feel like the rules are originally designed for narrative play and then adjusted for WAAC play styles. It's all good. Just give it time and Eldar will be knocked down a notch. 

[Aramis K]

I think it's because their units are all optimised for a specific task, and very good at it. They're focused.

They're weak at other tasks, and just plain weak, so they're not too expensive, they just pay for the bit they're good at.

I think that makes them powerful for competitive play with good players. They're priced against their whole profile, but cheap when they only need the good bits.

 

On the other hand, in more casual games and narrative games, the generalist strength of units like tactical marines are more useful.

[Indefragable]

I always understood Eldar to be meant to be a "finesse" army where each element is really really really good at one thing, but one thing only and the general had to figure out how to make each element of his/her army do the right thing at the right time, otherwise the house of cards would collapse...

 

...except it's not a house of cards, it's a house of steel and concrete.

 

While I don't think Eldar are quite as OP as they were in 7th, they are still one of the most frustrating armies in the whole game because I dare you to find a bad (Craftworld) Eldar unit. They really don't have any weaknesses at all. T3 would be about the only drawback to most of their stuff...but even that is a weakness that can be compensated for in many ways and is not unique to them.

 

Crimson Hunters are a unit that leaps to mind as the personification of what is wrong* with Eldar: BS2+ psuedo-lascannon bearing flyers that can pivot 90⁰twice in a movement phase, and can re-roll all failed wounds against anything with Fly (which is a big deal in 8th) as opposed to just Flyers as it were in 7th....all for 32x melta bombs worth of cost. Drawbacks? T6 is about it.  The most comparable unit points-wise for Imperium is Stormtalon/Stormhawk (and compare their capabilities) while the most comparable unit capabilities-wise is the FW Xiphon Interceptor which is a full 33% more expensive in terms of points.

 

...nothing wrong with Eldar having some of the best of a unit in the game, but they need to be comparative to what other factions get (and I'm not just saying Imperium). Compare to a Dark Eldar Razorwing fighter that costs 3x melta bombs more.

 

 

*assuming there is anything wrong based on the context of this conversation. Opinions obviously vary

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Now that i come to think of it, the fact that craftworld attributes apply to all units, including vehicles, is a big deal compared to marines (then again, guard get that too.)

Considering bad units: Wraithknight. Seriously, either worse guns than a imp knight or no invuln, while at the same price for the same profile. And the imperial knight is considered sub par by most already. Striking scorpions. Far too expensive for a few s4 attacks with no ap, on the fragile t3 frame with a odd 1 in 6 chance to cause a mortal wound on a charge...

But these don't counter the argument that the codex overall is between ok and good. Add to that the leverage through psychic powers and the obscenity that is ynnari (especially for reapers and shining spears) and you get really strong things on the board.

[Indefragable]

Now that i come to think of it, the fact that craftworld attributes apply to all units, including vehicles, is a big deal compared to marines (then again, guard get that too.)

Considering bad units: Wraithknight. Seriously, either worse guns than a imp knight or no invuln, while at the same price for the same profile. And the imperial knight is considered sub par by most already. Striking scorpions. Far too expensive for a few s4 attacks with no ap, on the fragile t3 frame with a odd 1 in 6 chance to cause a mortal wound on a charge...

But these don't counter the argument that the codex overall is between ok and good. Add to that the leverage through psychic powers and the obscenity that is ynnari (especially for reapers and shining spears) and you get really strong things on the board.

 

If the Wraithknight can be considered "bad," then....well....that's to make up for it's complete dominance in 7th :)

 

As for Striking Scorpions...that's a good point, but I think one has to ask him/herself what they're primary purpose is: are they a melee unit that can pop up out of nowhere or are they a stealth unit kitted for melee? If the former, than yea...maybe "bad." If the latter, and are compared to something like CQC Scouts, then they can hardly be called "bad" by any stretch of the imagination.

By point is that even "bad" units in the Eldar book are quite effective with a little effort. Compare to almost every other book that has at least a few "Nope. Just nope." ...units in there.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I think it has to do with the fact that, to GW, they love versatility. If something has a very focused role, they see it as less useful and powerful than a jack-of-all-trades unit that can do a bit of everything. As such, they've always underestimated the Eldar. I mean, how could a unit like Dark Reapers be really good, in their eyes, when they have no melee capability? Just get a melee unit in combat with them, and watch them crumble! Of course, this ignores the fact that said combat isn't going to happen, as the Dark Reapers will blow away any unit that looks at them funny. GW has just apparently never really seen it that way.

[chapter master 454]

Striking Scorpions to me make me think they were designed as light infantry shredders really. All things consider, their sister unit, the Howling Banshees, can also do it but I would argue you are using points on things that may not be used if you intend them for light infantry (where the +1 str is a big deal and the lack of AP isn't really). Not to mention the popping up outta no-where to RKO something is pretty potent, especially if you can combo off with a rune of battle quicken to help ensure the charge.

 

I suppose what others have mentioned is true, Eldar focus on one thing per unit and this makes them so good. Dark Reapers however may need to be told they are meant to be tank busters/heavy infantry killers and told to slow their roll about being Anti-Everything. I think GW may want to revisit their design principle about versatility as 40k deals with it vastly differently than in card games. In Card games, having a card being able to answer multiple other cards is a MASSIVE benefit as it means within your limited pool of resources (your hand) you can answer far more problems than your card count really allows (in Yugioh for example, a card called Book of Moon was limited for this reason. You could just answer far too much with it while also helping set-up certain kill conditions!). In 40k however, your "Deck" and "hand" are one in the same: you have it all there for use straight away. This means that having something being able to answer multiple threats isn't as great as the more tailored as in the case of 40k, we can access the right answer when we need to, no need to worry about bottomdecking it!

 

Looking at Eldar Units, it really is clear that it's hard to argue against any of their units because of their defined weaknesses and strengths. It is funny how Ironic it is really.

If you have defined weaknesses along with strengths that could be exploited, you are a better unit overall and thus more powerful.

If you have few weaknesses because you spread yourself across all disciplines then you actually do the inverse of your goal and weaken yourself.

[Slips]

 

Now that i come to think of it, the fact that craftworld attributes apply to all units, including vehicles, is a big deal compared to marines (then again, guard get that too.)

Considering bad units: Wraithknight. Seriously, either worse guns than a imp knight or no invuln, while at the same price for the same profile. And the imperial knight is considered sub par by most already. Striking scorpions. Far too expensive for a few s4 attacks with no ap, on the fragile t3 frame with a odd 1 in 6 chance to cause a mortal wound on a charge...

But these don't counter the argument that the codex overall is between ok and good. Add to that the leverage through psychic powers and the obscenity that is ynnari (especially for reapers and shining spears) and you get really strong things on the board.

 

If the Wraithknight can be considered "bad," then....well....that's to make up for it's complete dominance in 7th

 

As for Striking Scorpions...that's a good point, but I think one has to ask him/herself what they're primary purpose is: are they a melee unit that can pop up out of nowhere or are they a stealth unit kitted for melee? If the former, than yea...maybe "bad." If the latter, and are compared to something like CQC Scouts, then they can hardly be called "bad" by any stretch of the imagination.

By point is that even "bad" units in the Eldar book are quite effective with a little effort. Compare to almost every other book that has at least a few "Nope. Just nope." ...units in there.

 

The problem with the Wraithknight in 8th, currently, is that its SO BAD its not even worth considering as a unit to include in your army unless you bend yourself over backwards to include them.

 

Theyre literally a Knight but worse in literally every way for the same cost if not more.

 

It they were at parity with other equivalent units, fine. They needed the nerf from 7th. But now? Mine are just nicely painted paperweights.

[Dr. Clock]

I think Eldar have taken grief over the years because they appear to be 'Marines +1' in every department except their physical toughness. And this is roughly true, unit to unit... What I think alot of people miss is that Eldar also aren't actually cheap! We pay Marine prices for 'guard' defensive capabilities... And then in terms of vehicles we pay more and get to Fly!

 

But yes, in essence Eldar will always just slightly 'outspecialize the specialists' of other armies, except in the role of 'massive horde' or 'rock'. This means most often that if they connect with the right part of the enemy army early in the game, they can keep the initiative once they gain it. It means that if you built a list to efficiently kill marines, Eldar could efficiently kill you. It means that their weapons kill Marines just as efficiently as the Marines' kill them! And of course their mobility means that Eldar generals can execute their plans, and also quickly re-position if things don't go their way.

 

Most recently I do think GW made a blunder with Ynnari. I don't care for that mechanic.

 

 

Of course, this ignores the fact that said combat isn't going to happen, as the Dark Reapers will blow away any unit that looks at them funny. GW has just apparently never really seen it that way.

 

So, I get that fighting spam of any kind basically sucks, and that Reapers are powerful and cheap enough to 'warrant spamming', but you're also overstating the case a bit here.

 

At the end of the day a Reaper reaper dies like a Sister of Battle, not exactly the hardest 'chassis', costs 3x as much as a Sister. Heck, Dire Avengers are a third more expensive than SoB for shorter range, worse armour, Battle Focus, higher M, slightly buffed Overwatch, a little 'critical hit' chance, a better grenade, but effectively no 'flexiblity' options. I'm not saying they're not worth it, because I know the value of Movement and Bladestorm, I'm just saying that I don't think many Eldar point values are way off.

 

As an Eldar player, I gotta tell you that pretty quickly people understand that Reapers are a unit that you have to silence early... and if your army doesn't have a way to deal with priority T3/3+ targets turn 1 or 2 then I don't know what to tell you.

 

After a couple editions of lacklustre Dark Reaper stats (they got the recipe close, but the price tag/dmg output was always a bit off), I'll admit to a little smugness at seeing them wrecking face for a while... tempered of course by slight embarassment every time I bring them myself. Lots of armies have this sort of unit, or have very recently had one, so I'm sticking by my skull-faced panzees even if they go up a few points again : /

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Szadek_117]

In this edition they are too good because their internal psinergy between their own units ( and their stratagems ) , for example , shinning spears are good at their cost / effectivness , but if you mix it with quicken/ other psichic powers and the saim hann stratagem they become a monster , Reapers with a farseer and the stratagems that allows them to interceptate any unit in ther range ,  alaitoc rangers are cheap and hard to kill , a sponge for shots .  Actually they can put an army with an amaizing versatillity thanks to this .

[Trevak Dal]

Consistent patronage from a singular developer lead (Phil Kelly) I'd say. Like how Matt Ward so loved Space Marines.

[Karhedron]

One of the things I think that makes Eldar powerful is that GW have consistently struggled to price and power generalists properly compared to specialists. A squad that it good at shooting and CC will often struggle to earn its points back unless it manages to do both. In spite of being a finesse army to some extent, Eldar players can usually do well as long as they make sure their specialist units are able to do their one job well.

 

Put Dark Reapers in cover with a good field of fire and they will do well. Point your Dragons/Wraithguard at an armoured target and Bob's your uncle. Once you learn how to use our specialists well, they will often outperform generalist units.

 

Reapers are inferior to Tactical Marines in assault but few Marine players will have invested in the transports necessary to get their generalist Tactical squads into melee. In a shooting match between Reapers and Tacs, my money is on the dakka-pixies!

[Memento Of Prospero]

Just to add to the myriad of comments, the eldar have always been defined completitively by a usualy 1-2  undercost / overpowered unit. 5th was jetbike seer / warlockcouncil, 6th was wave serpents, 7th was wraith knights, 8th is dark reapers.

 

One factor that doesn't help this is that It's got a lower representation and older, more experienced players tend to gravitate towards the faction. This means that overall the skill level will be a little higher to begin with. Smaller samples make more radically skewed data. It's viability is define by it's use of very specialized units. People always struggle more with armies that break the game mold and ignore rules convention.

 

If you compare them to space marines, who have the largest population and also the youngest, it's a stark contrast. Space Marines also have had a strong showing in the past with various composition at highly competitive events, but you play so many of the average ones that the faction doesn't feel particularly over the top. Space marines tend to be generalist units, and the game is designed to tax that heavily.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

7th edition:

 

Wraithknights/Warp Spiders/Guardian Jetbikes w. Scatter Lasers/Wave Serpents - Serpent Shields/Hemlock Fighters/Wraithguard spamming D-flamers

 

Did I miss anything ?

 

8th edition:

 

Development's inability to fix Yanniri and Reaperspam both of which are exploited by WAAC gamers (see LVO).

[Brother Tyler]

Did I miss anything ?

Aside from 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 4th edition, 5th edition, and 6th edition? 

[Karhedron]

Eldar weren't great in 3rd edition until the Craftworlds supplement came out at which point MSU Guardians with Starcannon spam took off. The original 3rd edition codex was quite weak as it relied on Guardians and Avengers (who still only had a 12" gun back in those days).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Did I miss anything ?

Aside from 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 4th edition, 5th edition, and 6th edition? 

 

 

I believe 4th edition it was wave serpents again as you had to roll 5/5, 5/6, 6/5 or 6/6 to hit them... skimmers were neigh unkillable - really helped Tau as well.

 

5th edition eldar were not competitive. 6th edition they had all the units I listed for 7th edition.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

5th Edition were extremely competitive when built and handled properly. A buddy of mine routinely wiped the walls with folk at tournaments with his Eldar.

[Purifying Tempest]

Eldar is strong in the same way it has always been strong.  The army is a bunch of specialist units who can do something VERY well.  Which means when the meta shifts, they already have an answer to the meta staring them in the face.  No need to convert a ton of lascannon guys into heavy bolters or flamer guys into plasma guns.  Fire dragons will wreck a tank in any edition under every rule set... it is their function.  If the edition favors tanks?  Well, Fire Dragons will be the Dark Reapers of the meta.

 

This edition seems a little misplaced, though, as the Dark Reapers have become the generalist answer to our specialist problem.  They field well against anything.  They essential can fire between Heavy Bolter and Lascannon mode without penalty, and also negate penalties in an edition where said penalties are a very core mechanic.  This makes them good at killing... anything, everything.  Now you toss on a poor mechanic from the Ynnari called "Strength from Death", and you have a unit that can engage any enemy in any game and allow it to work twice as hard.

 

GG GW, you've created a problem.

 

Same thing to a lesser degree with Shinning Spears.  I mean, technically it is exactly the same problem, but the skill cap on playing Spears to a destructive enough level that they're a problem is A LOT higher than pointing at Dark Reapers with Yvraine and trolling til content.

 

Sadly, I think BOTH of those "problematic" units fall right back in line when they are not a part of Ynnari.  Reapers hit hard, but 16 reapers hit 16 times, not 16 reapers hit 26 times (10 man blob + 2 3 man squads).  They may still be a touch under-costed, even when just craftworlds, but you could change the damage from 3/2 to 2/1 or d3/1 depending on firing mode.  Compare to say, Noise Marine Blast Masters.  That static 3 damage is pretty brutal.

 

Board control would also be something that would benefit from a little discussion.  Between fast units and infiltrating Rangers for 60 points each, Eldar can exert a lot of board control really early on.  And then units of improbably deepstrikers can be added to the list via Webway Strike.  I really love the 20 guardian blob in Webway for a multitude of reasons, but mostly: it can overcome the inherent weakness of their 12" guns, adds more glass to their cannons, but also, 20 guardians can occupy A LOT of space.  Space that the opponent will rightly have to fight over against a trash unit that probably is not doing much but making itself required to be targeted.  It isn't ripping holes in their army (like killing Magnus), but it CAN, and it is RIGHT THERE chomping to do so.  Eldar also has Phantasm, which can erase any deployment errors on their part, or punish another player for making an error of their own.  Eldar can play havoc in the space game, dictating the pace of movement from deployment to the game conclusion.

 

Now that I've identified the strong parts of Eldar, let me take a moment to identify where Eldar is really weak:

 

Melee.

 

I feel that their melee specialists are anything but.  This deforms the entire codex to favoring crap like Reaper spam.  There's no reason to bring any of those close-combat aspect warriors, so we only bring guns... and I'm going to bring the best guns I got, and the best road blocks I can put in front of them.  I think a big part of why some of these units are so good is attributed to how bad our midfield units are.  Banshees and Striking Scorpions are just... a total let down.  4 points for a 3 STR power sword is probably in the same boat as 13 points for a BS4 plasma gun.  Just makes the unit too expensive for what it really does.  And I really want to play both units, and regularly do in my Eldar lists.  But I definitely feel a drop in efficiency when having to make moves with those units.  They feel far less central to my strategy and more just opportunists looking to do more than chop chaff.

 

I think the same goes with the Wraithlords, and by extension Knights.  They're big, they're scary, and they're decently tough.  But lacking an invul vs Plasma and Lascannon meta does them no favors.  Wraithlords also lose Ballistic Skill when taking weapons that matter, meaning that they're going to be more likely to become a Leman Russ Chassis when holding things like Bright Lances.  And when they anchor down to hold onto their Ballistic Skill, they lose what they're really designed for: being a tough wall screening your paper-thin army.  And when they do intercept, their melee leaves a bit to be desired.  They just do not shine for their investment requirements.

 

I don't think there are many outright garbage units in the codex, but it is a codex with a lot of pedestrian units surrounded by a couple of outliers that create lists that can dominate top tables at tournaments because 1) meta game is Eldar game, and 2) wonky interaction creating painful imbalances giving the whole codex a case of the craps.

 

Also: Wave Serpents.

 

...

 

So good.

 

#FixFalconsOrSomething, stupid Wave Serpents.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It's not so much that their melee is weak, it's that melee units actually need to get in combat before they can do anything, as opposed to Dark Reapers who can start killing from T1.

[Skaorn]

It's not so much that their melee is weak, it's that melee units actually need to get in combat before they can do anything, as opposed to Dark Reapers who can start killing from T1.

That was something you could say about every edition with melee troops though. For a while I hardly ever saw Dark Reapers but there was usually at least one unit of Striking Scorpians because they could wound SM, had infiltration, a power fist, and still went before most armies due to a high initiative. I think the loss of initiative really hurt the specialist melee units.