What makes Eldar so powerful every edition?

[Feral_80]

Almost, but tge situation is more complex. Guard has no chances really against a serious Eldar list. The FAQ has favoured gunlines vs melee, but has not addressed the serious unbalance introduced by -1 hit, of which Eldar is just the most broken user.

The current situation is roughly that Guard (Tau, etc.) tends to win vs melee armies, but Eldar tend to win against just anything. No counter to that so far, and certainly not before October.

Anyway, the problem is that the whole mechanics are so unbalanced that it seems impossible to balance them: a proper pts tag would simply make certain units unplayable (eg, Hemlocks and Reapers), and we cannot expect GW to rewrite whole codexes and rules section at this point.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

A serious Eldar list went up around a 150 pts. Dark Reapers are still the best heavy support choice, and Eldar rely on psychers which for the most part went up in cost. That's in addition to the new Ynnari rules that limit the detachment more (no more DE warriors + reapers). It all adds up to a pretty big nerf for those lists, they may compensate by dropping some screening units, but that will lower the body count. It'll will also make the match up with chaos tougher.

 

Guard lost the ability to 1st turn deep strike Scions but for the most part can ignore the faq, the rule of 3 barely effects them with vehicle squadrons, how stacked the troop slot is, and that it doesn't effect transports.

 

I'm not suggesting that Eldar are gimped, I just think they'll have a lot more issues than they've had in the past in a tournament setting. Guard dominated the early stages of 8th for a reason though, and without the -1 detachments they still would imo. 

[Feral_80]

The FAQ may have nerfed Eldar, but they are still far ahead of anything else in my opinion (except possibly Tyranids?). Also because you cannot really nerf Dark Reapers etc.: they have such overwhelmingly broken rules that a fair pts cost would simply make T 3 W 1 models unplayable. You cannot really nerf Hemlocks either - a relatively 'immortal', super-mobile, psychic, debuffing, impossible/suicidal to assault, super-mobile, auto-hitting and uber-damaging, never-really-degrading model? How much should it cost, to be balanced? Far more than any savvy player would invest in a non-scoring unit, I thnk. And so on.

 

Anyway. I think the only real reason why Guard has dominated the early stages of 8th ed (apart from Conscripts, but those were so poorly nerfed to be unplayable now) is really just one: most other armies had no codex yet - and those that had one were really bad, actually so bad that they'd already need to be redesigned and republished.

 

Once the *really* problematic codexes started to come out, Guard has simply disappeared from tournaments, just like many others. 

 

This to me is quite an obvious proof of GW's total lack of control over its codex design and consistency. And I don't see how that can be fixed by any (already exceedingly high) amount of FAQ and updates.

[Slips]

If Eldar were as truly overpowered as your statements are making them out to be, why arent they dominating the Tournament scene where such imbalances would be amplified and/or magnified in the ultra-competitive scene?

 

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-rankings/

 

Either Im not seeing it as badly as you are or, they arent as overpoweredly broken as you’re claiming them to be?

[Feral_80]

I only remind you that according to FLG records Astra Militarum was not really dominating either, and even less overpowered :) yet, the community had a different feeling (which, in my opinion, depended on the aforementioned reasons).

 

As for Eldar, the major example I can provide is that they did indeed dominate at LVO. The following major tournaments, as far as I can remember, they were characterized by the (ab)use of l-o-s blocking terrain, which was chiefly determined by feedback from LVO - and this resulted in a huge advantage for melee armies.

 

I do not know what will happen post-FAQ, let's see the next major event. Eldar's main competitor at LVO, Blood Angels, seems destined to suffer much more than Eldar's slight pts increases. In any case, no sign of AM in pretty much all recent tournament top rankings is enough for me to believe in the explanation I've tried to give above.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Well look at the adepticon top 16 there were 2 elder list 1 Ynarri, 1 Aledrai so both were soup lists, and there were two guard armies with allies but both were running brigades of guard. So I just don't really get how guard can not be a competitive fraction, but what ever I'm sure you've played a bunch of games post faq and know better than me. 

[Feral_80]

Hmm well no, at Adepticon AM essentially featured as CP batteries. Mainly with BA and for Tyranids, if I remember correctly, in those sort of monstrous alliances that abuse keywords and that the Faq seems to have only partially fixed. They were all lists centred on far different armies that made up for the AM weaknesses.

 

One lists featured an AM super-heavy allied with 5 Tyrants...do I need to add anything? I'd hardly call any of that AM armies. They are completely different from the full-AM armies that we used to see before, and I guess the reason is that those 'normal' AM armies are just useless tournament-wise now. Damn, I'd like so much the next FAQ to prevent AM being used as CP batteries for other armies...

 

On the other hand, Eldar - Craftworld and Ynnari - were and still are one thing at the moment really. They might be different sub-factions, but (now confirmed) they even share stratagems and relics. It's a form of synergy that AM does not have with the allies that take it just to abuse its (currently) few strengths, which include CP (re)generation.

[Karhedron]

The thing is that the Eldar army list is one of the most varied in the 40K lineup cheap infantry (Guardians), many flavours of elite infantry (Aspect warriors, Wraithguard) and plenty of vehicles and monsters. This means an Eldar army can approach the flexibility of many "soup" lists while retaining the benefits of being mono-codex.

[Indefragable]

The thing is that the Eldar army list is one of the most varied in the 40K lineup cheap infantry (Guardians), many flavours of elite infantry (Aspect warriors, Wraithguard) and plenty of vehicles and monsters. This means an Eldar army can approach the flexibility of many "soup" lists while retaining the benefits of being mono-codex.

 

...and are there even a single flunky unit in any of those 3 Eldar books?

[Karhedron]

If by "flunky" you mean poor, then yes, there are plenty of poor units in the Eldar codex. Storm Guardians are poor, even at just 7ppm (look at Wyches who are just 1 ppm more and far better). But that doesn't really matter as long as there are enough good units to cover all bases.

 

And there certainly are. Reapers and Fire Prisms are excellent long-ranged shooty units. Shining Spears are great in assault. Wraithguard and Fire Dragons excel at short-ranged fire fighting. Rangers can screen. Guardians and Avengers supply cost effective anti-infantry firepower etc. Eldar have enough good units to compete in all phases of the game.

[Skaorn]

People also tend not to hear about the games with new or not very good Eldar players. Eldar tend to be far less forgiving of mistakes. I once played a Saim Hann player with my Tau and wrecked him because he kept chasing after my suits and parking squads and vehicles within 12" of a 20 strong unit of Kroot I parked in a forest that he ignored. They bagged a fire prism, a falcon or WS (don't remember), wrecked a squadron of Vypers, and mauled a large squad of jet bikes before he quit.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Hmm well no, at Adepticon AM essentially featured as CP batteries. Mainly with BA and for Tyranids, if I remember correctly, in those sort of monstrous alliances that abuse keywords and that the Faq seems to have only partially fixed. They were all lists centred on far different armies that made up for the AM weaknesses.

 

One lists featured an AM super-heavy allied with 5 Tyrants...do I need to add anything? I'd hardly call any of that AM armies. They are completely different from the full-AM armies that we used to see before, and I guess the reason is that those 'normal' AM armies are just useless tournament-wise now. Damn, I'd like so much the next FAQ to prevent AM being used as CP batteries for other armies...

 

On the other hand, Eldar - Craftworld and Ynnari - were and still are one thing at the moment really. They might be different sub-factions, but (now confirmed) they even share stratagems and relics. It's a form of synergy that AM does not have with the allies that take it just to abuse its (currently) few strengths, which include CP (re)generation.

1) I didn't count the super heavy one lol.

 

2) Claiming that they're just CP batteries is a bit much, those brigades put a lot of boots on the ground and that matters. Those lists could barely hold an objective otherwise. That and there is a reason they spam Mortars lol.

 

3) If your going to decide that some armies aren't actually guard armies because it doesn't fit your ideal of guard, why lump Ynarri + Craftworld together? Those list tended to use DE troops, venoms, and other elements that don't show up in the Craftworld book.

[Feral_80]

On 2), they are CP batteries indeed, plus of course they spam bodies and play horde.
At best, you find 1000 pts of AM + 1000 pts of BA. And that is *not* AM list period, and certainly not due to my personal ideal of Guard. They simply are not AM lists, objectively speaking.

To add on 3), Eldar, I remember a 'soup' made of perhaps 10 kabalite warriors/Ynnari and the remaining 90% was CW/Ynnari. And these are really all the same thing, same *models*, same *stratagems*, sometimes even the same doctrines, etc.

Do not pretend you do not see the differences, come on 

[domsto]

Eldar were brutally OP in 7.Edititon and they are brutally OP now.

So OP the Eldar player in my Community startet Tau now because he got bored of always winning.

Even after the "nerf" they got with the spring FAQ they are still way ahead of ever other Army.

I mean Dark Reaper only a Point increase and no Rule Change? They are still to Strong for the Points.

 

And Feral_80 is right.

I wouldn't call a Army where 2/3 of the Points are Space Marines a Guard Army..

AM is now just a CP Farm for Space Marines/Custodes and all this Armys with low model count.

 

Eldar dominate most of the Tournaments, except the Adepticon where the perfectly tailored anti-Eldar list dominated.

And Guard was strong because they got a Codex real early in the Edition.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

On 2), they are CP batteries indeed, plus of course they spam bodies and play horde.

At best, you find 1000 pts of AM + 1000 pts of BA. And that is *not* AM list period, and certainly not due to my personal ideal of Guard. They simply are not AM lists, objectively speaking.

 

To add on 3), Eldar, I remember a 'soup' made of perhaps 10 kabalite warriors/Ynnari and the remaining 90% was CW/Ynnari. And these are really all the same thing, same *models*, same *stratagems*, sometimes even the same doctrines, etc.

 

Do not pretend you do not see the differences, come on 

 

1) Hordes are really really good this edition, so is cheap long range shooting that doesn't need los. I get that you don't see those armies as guard armies, but those command point, bodies, and indirect fire are what makes those lists work. Pure Custodes is not a thing, Blood Angels have done better but the faq hit them hard. They aren't factors without guard, and guard will still be the core of most imperium lists but they suck I guess. 

 

Its frustrating that you don't see that those armies are possible because of guard, and have decided your fraction is weak.

 

2) Not every one plays Ynnari well Eldar lists exactly the same, sorry I let my person experiences affect my opinion. 

[Withershadow]

It's really Alatoic, Alatoic can make your life a nightmare because they can have a huge swath of their army simply untouchable by ranged attacks.  Literally untouchable.  This is why the default Craftworld for allies in soup is Alatoic.

 

I consider their army-wide bonus the most asinine thing GW has done, and it goes contrary to their whole mission statement of 8th edition to include player agency in all phases of the game and make sure nothing is untouchable just because you didn't bring the exact tool needed. Then they made a faction that can simply ignore Guard/Ork/BS4+ shooting.

[domsto]

Their ability for easy first turn charges with shining spears and banshis is also a factor that makes them extremly strong.

I lost games before my first turn because my Opponent charged everthing first turn.

That is really unbalanced

[CrystalSeer]

Their ability for easy first turn charges with shining spears and banshis is also a factor that makes them extremly strong.

I lost games before my first turn because my Opponent charged everthing first turn.

That is really unbalanced

 

If you don't mind my asking, how did he manage to assault everything first turn? Was there no bubble-wrap / transports / denial zones? Or was he able to get around that? 

[domsto]

 

 

Their ability for easy first turn charges with shining spears and banshis is also a factor that makes them extremly strong.

I lost games before my first turn because my Opponent charged everthing first turn.

That is really unbalanced

If you don't mind my asking, how did he manage to assault everything first turn? Was there no bubble-wrap / transports / denial zones? Or was he able to get around that?

Bubble-wraping only works if the enemy units doesn't fly

He just fly over my Guardsman and charged the tanks behind

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It's really Alatoic, Alatoic can make your life a nightmare because they can have a huge swath of their army simply untouchable by ranged attacks.  Literally untouchable.  This is why the default Craftworld for allies in soup is Alatoic.

 

I consider their army-wide bonus the most asinine thing GW has done, and it goes contrary to their whole mission statement of 8th edition to include player agency in all phases of the game and make sure nothing is untouchable just because you didn't bring the exact tool needed. Then they made a faction that can simply ignore Guard/Ork/BS4+ shooting.

 

I think the -1 to hit is fine, raven guard and admech aren't tearing up the scene . Its more that elder can stack (and alpha legion has a bunch of good stratagems). They should have made -1 to hit work like fnp where you choose one modifier and that's it. That and more units than dark reapers should ignore it (every army should have units that hit on their base BS).

[Withershadow]

 

It's really Alatoic, Alatoic can make your life a nightmare because they can have a huge swath of their army simply untouchable by ranged attacks.  Literally untouchable.  This is why the default Craftworld for allies in soup is Alatoic.

 

I consider their army-wide bonus the most asinine thing GW has done, and it goes contrary to their whole mission statement of 8th edition to include player agency in all phases of the game and make sure nothing is untouchable just because you didn't bring the exact tool needed. Then they made a faction that can simply ignore Guard/Ork/BS4+ shooting.

 

I think the -1 to hit is fine, raven guard and admech aren't tearing up the scene . Its more that elder can stack (and alpha legion has a bunch of good stratagems). They should have made -1 to hit work like fnp where you choose one modifier and that's it. That and more units than dark reapers should ignore it (every army should have units that hit on their base BS).

 

The issue is those armies have few synergies with that bonus. Chaos has like the plague spell that inflicts -1 to hit, Mechanicus has the Dragoons. Eldar have a HUGE swath of units that have an innate -1 to hit, plus a stratagem, plus a spell power.  So it's easy to have your whole army at -2 or -3.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

 

The issue is those armies have few synergies with that bonus. Chaos has like the plague spell that inflicts -1 to hit, Mechanicus has the Dragoons. Eldar have a HUGE swath of units that have an innate -1 to hit, plus a stratagem, plus a spell power.  So it's easy to have your whole army at -2 or -3.

 

 

Right and if they have to pick one source the detachment bonus would count as one. So they wouldn't be able to stack anymore. I don't like that it stacks I just want to make that point clear, cause I'm not apparently.

 

 

[Shiboinky]

Black Star, that's an interesting idea that, somehow, I never considered. It is strange that the Ulthwé trait can't stack but the Alaitoc trait can. I wonder if preventing the -1 to hit stacking would alleviate most of the complaints against Eldar. I want to see an elegant fix to any imbalance as I'd like to play my favorite army without being called a WAAC power gamer.

 

In the last month or so, my local area has become very hostile towards Eldar with many people complaining about them being "cheesy and OP" the second you pull out your army. (However, most of the vocal players are new to 40k in 8th edition and never experienced the mess that was "balance" in 7th).

[domsto]

It isn't just the nasty -1 to hit that makes Eldar a real pain to play against.

They also have many units that are a little bit too efficient for their points.

Like Shining Spears(even after the Spring FAQ), the all hated Dark Reapers, or all the named HQ choices.

I often have the feeling when i play against them they are all just a little bit to cheap for what they can do.

The spring FAQ was a good start to solve this problem.

[Shiboinky]

That's a fair point. However, if we're considering the Spring FAQ, I'm a bit concerned about their ability to properly repoint units. As you said, shinning spears are still a bit too effective, along with a number of other units, and some units even after points adjustments remain with the same issues as before. Take the warlock for example. Before, the only reason he would see the table is if you REALLY couldn't find the 10 points to spare to make him a Spiritseer. Now that same issue still exists only at a higher price point. I'm still trying to decide if the new price for a spiritseer is worth it. They used to be a handy unit to throw into the list to throw around the odd power or help deny, now I find myself trying to shuffle things around in my list to make him a farseer unless I specifically need a particular Runes of Battle power.

 

To be fair, the other points adjustments were completely reasonable.