"During" versus "at the end of" the phase

[Mr. Shine]

Can a rule that may be used during a phase, in this case the Cloud of Flies stratagem during the Movement phase, be used after performing an action that must be done at the end of the phase, in this case reinforcements arriving at the end of the Movement phase?

 

Self evidently I would think not, being that specific end of phase actions need to happen last, but a friend is doggedly claiming he can invoke Sequencing by trying to use "during the phase" as equivalent to specifically "at the end of the phase".

 

Thoughts?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Is it still the Movement Phase? Then it's still during that phase, and the action can be done. The end of something is still part of it, after all.

 

End of Phase events don't necessarily have to happen last, they just can't be done earlier. His stratagem, on the other can, can be done at any time, so long as it's during the movement phase. Beginning, middle, end, doesn't matter, so long as the next phase hasn't begun, it's still part of that phase, and therefore the event is occurring during it.

[Mr. Shine]

I'm not disputing it's still during the phase, but as a matter of common sense, if you were to try to use Cloud of Flies after setting up a unit as reinforcements at the end of the phase wouldn't that unit then not have been set up at the end of the phase and thus set up illegally?

[Eddie Orlock]

Thoughts?

In the abstract, 'during' would imply a continuous effect, while 'at the end of' implies a timing point for a discrete event. In Magic for a long time stack triggers at the end of a phase would still consider effects in effect for the duration of that phase, of course, as a basis for interpretation this is so tangential as to be immaterial.

 

Never the less, can you raise any confirmable precedent for anything happening in the interstitial space between turns? My general impression of the rules, is that one the battle has commenced play is always in either one phase or another. The 'end of phase' timing point seems to be there to forestall some unknown interaction that would arise if you allowed units to move after the reserves 'reserved'. Anyway, I don't think 'sequencing' is even required to make a 'during' effect cover events triggered by an end of phase timing point.

[Mr. Shine]

In this case the 'during' is a continuous opportunity to use the stratagem. While I agree that "at the end of" is still during the phase, my concern is that taking that continuous opportunity to use the stratagem on a unit that was set up as reinforcements at the end of the phase then pushes their set up to a point in time before the end of the phase, and as they're not both stated to happen at the same time I don't think Sequencing applies for resolving otherwise simultaneous actions.

[Eddie Orlock]

Okay, I looked up the cloud of flies in the death guard book. I've another vector on this. Presuming your foe is setting up a multiple model unit, is there anything that stops them from interrupting themselves mid-set-up to invoke the flies stratagem?

 

Alternatively, what if they had multiple units with an end-of-phase set up trigger? Could they set up their intended fly target first, then prior to the follow up unit(s) engulf it in flies, only then proceeding onto the next reserve? You can't end a phase more than once, can you?

 

I can imagine some cases where some otherwise none to frightening deep insertion capable unit gets sprung onto the table in close proximity and is all of a sudden really hard to remove because of this interaction effect.

[Halandaar]

but a friend is doggedly claiming he can invoke Sequencing by trying to use "during the phase" as equivalent to specifically "at the end of the phase".

 

Invoke sequencing back; If he uses the stratagem on a reinforcement unit, then that unit was no longer deployed at the end of the phase (because something else happened afterwards) and thus their deployment was not a legal action per the rules of the game.

 

Note that we aren't deploying reinforcements "just before the end" of the movement phase. It's at the end. Your friend has nominated to end his movement phase in order to bring the reinforcements in. So any action that was available to him "during" the phase is now invalid, because the phase has ended.

[TheWolfLord]

 

but a friend is doggedly claiming he can invoke Sequencing by trying to use "during the phase" as equivalent to specifically "at the end of the phase".

 

 

Invoke sequencing back; If he uses the stratagem on a reinforcement unit, then that unit was no longer deployed at the end of the phase (because something else happened afterwards) and thus their deployment was not a legal action per the rules of the game.

 

Note that we aren't deploying reinforcements "just before the end" of the movement phase. It's at the end. Your friend has nominated to end his movement phase in order to bring the reinforcements in. So any action that was available to him "during" the phase is now invalid, because the phase has ended.

How can the phase have ended if he's still bringing reinforcements on though? The end of the movement phase is still part of the movement phase so satisfies the 'during' from the Stratagem.

 

There's no illegal deployment because it's the end of the movement phase and no illegal use of the Stratagem as it's still considered part of the movement phase.

[Halandaar]

How can the phase have ended if he's still bringing reinforcements on though? The end of the movement phase is still part of the movement phase so satisfies the 'during' from the Stratagem.

There's no illegal deployment because it's the end of the movement phase and no illegal use of the Stratagem as it's still considered part of the movement phase.

 

Okay, how can it (deployment) be the end of the phase if other stuff is yet to happen in the phase? The use of the stratagem is what renders the deployment an action that takes place not at the end of the phase.

[Mr. Shine]

Okay, I looked up the cloud of flies in the death guard book. I've another vector on this. Presuming your foe is setting up a multiple model unit, is there anything that stops them from interrupting themselves mid-set-up to invoke the flies stratagem?

 

Alternatively, what if they had multiple units with an end-of-phase set up trigger? Could they set up their intended fly target first, then prior to the follow up unit(s) engulf it in flies, only then proceeding onto the next reserve? You can't end a phase more than once, can you?

I think either way you're still having either part of a unit or (an) entire unit/units set up no longer at the end of the phase.

 

I get what people are saying, that it's still during the phase, and I don't disagree it's still during the phase, but as a matter of sequence (though not 'Sequencing' I think) it appears to me that doing so retrospectively invalidates setting up arriving reinforcements.

[TheWolfLord]

I'm still not seeing it.

 

Just because I choose to use a Stratagem what can be used during the movement phase at the end of the movement phase doesn't mean it's no longer the end of the phase.

 

Nothing in the rules for reinforcements state they must be the very last action in the movement phase.

 

They are setup at the end of the movement phase but many rules and abilities have the potential to trigger at the end of the movement phase.

 

As they all occur or are chosen to occur at the same time the player whose turn it is chooses the order.

 

I just don't agree that doing another action 'at the end of the movement phase' suddenly stops it being the end of the movement phase. If that were the case then it wouldn't be possible to bring more than a single unit in as reinforcements as the setup of the second and any subsequent units would mean the previous reinforcements were not setup at the end of the movement phase.

 

Therefore as we know the end of the phase can contain many different actions adding another can't break that sequence

[Halandaar]

I disagree with the base assertion here that "the end" is "during" the phase.

 

After 95% of your actions is not at the end. Nor is after 99%, or even 99.999999999%. When 100% of actions have been completed, that's the end of the phase. That's what "the end" means. And it's at this point, and this point only, that actions which occur "at the end of the movement phase" take place. 

 

If anything that can happen during the movement phase is occurring, or has yet to occur, then the "end of the phase" condition has not been satisfied.

 

If you are using Cloud of Flies, it must be used during your movement phase. That's at some point prior to 100% completion ("the end") of the movement phase. It cannot itself occur at the end of the movement phase, because it's own rules do not allow it. By using the stratagem, OP's opponent is effectively declaring that the movement phase is ongoing (because it can only be used during the phase), and therefore no reinforcements can happen yet, because we are not at the end of the phase (i.e. 100% completion).

[Eddie Orlock]

When 100% of actions have been completed, that's the end of the phase.

See case here when you've multiple E-o-P triggers.

Alternatively, what if they had multiple units with an end-of-phase set up triggers? Could they set up their intended fly target first, then prior to the follow up unit(s) engulf it in flies, only then proceeding onto the next reserve? You can't end a phase more than once, can you?

Per the sequencing side-bar you can't have simultaneous effects. Ergo, one happens first, which means it by definition can't be the very last thing.

 

Once we establish that a thing can happen after this theoretical end point, it creates a window for other things to happen. We can't end the phase more than once, right?

 

If we go back to review the movement phase rules they talk about picking a unit, moving it, and then cycling back to pick another unit and moving it. No where in that section do they mention that you can interrupt that cycle to play stratagems. Permission to interrupt the sequence comes from the stratagem.

 

-------

 

You know what, I think we're all making the same cases back and forth here, and without some better sources we're unlikely to convince one another. I'm sure I've read some formal language to describe the nature of the interpretations but it escapes me right now.

 

Anyway, we should consider this something of a 'soft-lock' on this topic until something of a better source presents itself to justify new discussion. Perhaps a FAQ on an analogous power interaction from a different phase with a similar timing trigger? Something other than semantics on the definition of the word 'end'.

[McElMcNinja]

Per the rules:

phases are as follows:

1.Movement phase

Move any units that are capable of doing so.

2.Psychic phase

Psykers can use powerful mental abilities.

3.Shooting phase

Your units may shoot enemy units.

4.Charge phase

Your units may move into close combat against enemy units.

5.Fight phase

Both players’ units pile in and attack with melee weapons.

6.Morale phase

Test the courage of depleted units.

 

Add to that a phase may have several sequences to itself, which while not all are written they are still assumed. The physic phase.

1.Choose psyker and power

2.Make Psychic test

3.Enemy takes Deny the Witch test

4.Resolve psychic power

 

It doesn't say there is a beginning or an end, but we know it starts when sequence 1 is chosen and isn't over till you start the next phase (the group I play with announce when they are starting the next phase). Which to me means that anything that happens prior to starting the next phase is during the current phase.

 

So if a stratagem can be used during a phase and you are still in that phase (i.e. not moved onto the next phase) then the stratagem is still playable.

[Eddie Orlock]

Yeah, so, here's the thing: When I use the orange text around here with some meta-direction about the thread: I mean it. I prefer to 'soft lock' when I can because now, when someone comes up with a real case they've got to PM me and what not and I've got to go back and unlock things.

 

The argument presented after it is substantially similar to some of the arguments preceding the orange text. The whole thing seems to hinge on how axiomatically we're interpreting that events keyed to the end of a phase must actually be at the end of a phase. I'm reminded of some interpretations about ordinance weapons that sprung up in late seventh wherein if you announced the Russ' secondary armaments you could fire them at full skill rather than the snap shot required if you announced them after the main gun. The whole thing was quite formal, but highly debatable and usually denounced as unsporting. Now, the sportingness of the current case is much more debatable, but the formalness of the language isn't quite there yet.

 

Anyway, as alluded to above, if you've any genuinely novel contributions, please let me know so I can unlocks this that you may share them openly with us.