Adeptus Custodes FW beta rules

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

This weekend I have 4 games lined up with:

 

Death guard Morty and double guo at 3k.

 

Dark angels 2k

 

Tau 2k

 

Marines (I think ravenguard?)

 

All of them are down with me testing out the units. So come sat evening I will be tired and have lots of real play. Wish I had more but still.

[Charlo]

I find what really helps balance is people calling others salty when they get a little passionate in discussion without contributing ;)

 

Great point about the context of the other Units, Skimask - especially something like Jetbikes with Las pulsars being effected by the Dreads rules.

[betrayer41]

I find what really helps balance is people calling others salty when they get a little passionate in discussion without contributing

 

Great point about the context of the other Units, Skimask - especially something like Jetbikes with Las pulsars being effected by the Dreads rules.

Phew! glad were on the same page  . I Honestly wish i had more to contribute haha ive only ever played two games of 8th with WE. I think mt first games with the golden boys will be against crons. Luckily i have both FW dreads and will be interested to see what the he does.

 

I caved and bought a telemon :(

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I sure hope the telemon gets rules. Low maybe? Or just stick with one per detachment. (Low would be an extra command point right?)

[wildweasel]

I sure hope the telemon gets rules. Low maybe? Or just stick with one per detachment. (Low would be an extra command point right?)

 

The Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment is 0 CP, you need the full SH Detachment at 3+ units to get a CP.

 

Telemon is prob next on my to-get FW list.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

 

 

I sure hope the telemon gets rules. Low maybe? Or just stick with one per detachment. (Low would be an extra command point right?)

The Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment is 0 CP, you need the full SH Detachment at 3+ units to get a CP.

 

Telemon is prob next on my to-get FW list.

That's right. Dont have book and have never used a super heavy in 8th yet.

[kombatwombat]

Thoughts on the Achillus...

 

I haven’t had a chance to play with the beta rules yet, but I do play all the time with a Black Templars Relic Contemptor Dreadnought with twin Chainfist/Heavy Flamers. It’s very similar to the Achillus, and clocks in at 225 points to the Achillus’ 269 (assuming the Achillus can actually take two Heavy Flamers, which seems to be a safe bet).

 

Overall I’m happy with where the Templars Relic Contemptor sits balance-wise; it’s never going to set the world on fire competitively, but it doesn’t feel like a liability either, so I think it’s a reasonable benchmark. It also has an almost identical statline to the Achillus - right down to the 5++/6+++. The Relic one loses attacks rather than movement with its degrading profile, but I think that difference is very situational. The Achillus also has one more point of Ld, which is... pretty much irrelevant.

 

The only real differences then are Chainfist vs Dreadspear and their special rules:

 

- Relic rerolls 1s to hit

- Achillus gets what is on average one Lascannon (2 shots average with D3 rather than D6 damage, at slightly shorter range)

- Relic’s Chainfist has flat 4 damage, Achillus Dreadspear has more variable damage but actually averages 4 damage

- Relic’s Chainfist has AP-4 to the Dreadspear’s -3

- Achillus has Mortal Wound on a 6 to hit rule

- Relic gets Chapter Tactics (in my case, reroll charges)

- Achillus is 54 points more expensive

 

If the Achillus pays the requisite 25 points for its Lascannon equivalent, the points gap narrows to 29. I would suggest the following:

 

- Give the Achillus an extra attack; this seems a fair trade for the Relic’s reroll 1s to hit.

- Give the Achillus the ability to get the +1 Invul for being in a Custodes Detachment. This trades off against the Relic’s 1 better AP (it’s surprising how much more valuable AP-4 is than AP-3 - it doesn’t allow your opponent to get lucky on a 6 and stop heaps of damage). If this is unfair in the Achillus’ favour, remember that the Relic gets Chapter Tactics as another balancing factor.

 

I think at this point if the Achillus was just 25 points more expensive than the Relic (so 250) with a Lascannon equivalent and the changes I’ve posited, the Achillus would be in a good place. All that remains is to reconcile the extra 29 points with the Impaling Lunge special rule.

 

Straight up, a single Mortal Wound on a 6+ to hit is not worth 29 points. But rather than bring the points down, I’d make the rule worth the points. A single Mortal Wound is very lacklustre for a model this expensive and geared towards big game hunting. It’s even moreso when you consider how scary the rule is in 30k (even using the Rules as Intended version, the Rules as Written version is obscene - it can literally kill a Titan on the charge!). I would propose to reword the Impaling Lunge rule to be:

 

‘Attacks with a To-Hit roll of a 6 resolve at 2D6 damage rather than D6.’

 

It’s appropriately scary, but it’s only on a 6, you can still take all of your available saves against it, and it’s wasted against smaller targets. It’s also much more interesting and dramatic than a Mortal Wound, and really feels like being impaled by a 10+ metre spear is going to rustle your jimmies.

 

To summarise, my changes would be the altered Implaing Lunge rule, +1 attack, and the +1 Invulnerable for Aegis of the Emperor in a Custodes Detachment. Relative to the Relic Contemptor, the Achillus:

 

- Trades rerolling 1s To Hit for +1 Attack

- Trades 1 AP and Chapter Tactics for +1 Invul

- Pays 25 points for a Lascannon Equivalent

- Pays 29 points for the altered Impaling Lunge rule

 

Thoughts?

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Thoughts on the Achillus...

 

I haven’t had a chance to play with the beta rules yet, but I do play all the time with a Black Templars Relic Contemptor Dreadnought with twin Chainfist/Heavy Flamers. It’s very similar to the Achillus, and clocks in at 225 points to the Achillus’ 269 (assuming the Achillus can actually take two Heavy Flamers, which seems to be a safe bet).

 

Overall I’m happy with where the Templars Relic Contemptor sits balance-wise; it’s never going to set the world on fire competitively, but it doesn’t feel like a liability either, so I think it’s a reasonable benchmark. It also has an almost identical statline to the Achillus - right down to the 5++/6+++. The Relic one loses attacks rather than movement with its degrading profile, but I think that difference is very situational. The Achillus also has one more point of Ld, which is... pretty much irrelevant.

 

The only real differences then are Chainfist vs Dreadspear and their special rules:

 

- Relic rerolls 1s to hit

- Achillus gets what is on average one Lascannon (2 shots average with D3 rather than D6 damage, at slightly shorter range)

- Relic’s Chainfist has flat 4 damage, Achillus Dreadspear has more variable damage but actually averages 4 damage

- Relic’s Chainfist has AP-4 to the Dreadspear’s -3

- Achillus has Mortal Wound on a 6 to hit rule

- Relic gets Chapter Tactics (in my case, reroll charges)

- Achillus is 54 points more expensive

 

If the Achillus pays the requisite 25 points for its Lascannon equivalent, the points gap narrows to 29. I would suggest the following:

 

- Give the Achillus an extra attack; this seems a fair trade for the Relic’s reroll 1s to hit.

- Give the Achillus the ability to get the +1 Invul for being in a Custodes Detachment. This trades off against the Relic’s 1 better AP (it’s surprising how much more valuable AP-4 is than AP-3 - it doesn’t allow your opponent to get lucky on a 6 and stop heaps of damage). If this is unfair in the Achillus’ favour, remember that the Relic gets Chapter Tactics as another balancing factor.

 

I think at this point if the Achillus was just 25 points more expensive than the Relic (so 250) with a Lascannon equivalent and the changes I’ve posited, the Achillus would be in a good place. All that remains is to reconcile the extra 29 points with the Impaling Lunge special rule.

 

Straight up, a single Mortal Wound on a 6+ to hit is not worth 29 points. But rather than bring the points down, I’d make the rule worth the points. A single Mortal Wound is very lacklustre for a model this expensive and geared towards big game hunting. It’s even moreso when you consider how scary the rule is in 30k (even using the Rules as Intended version, the Rules as Written version is obscene - it can literally kill a Titan on the charge!). I would propose to reword the Impaling Lunge rule to be:

 

‘Attacks with a To-Hit roll of a 6 resolve at 2D6 damage rather than D6.’

 

It’s appropriately scary, but it’s only on a 6, you can still take all of your available saves against it, and it’s wasted against smaller targets. It’s also much more interesting and dramatic than a Mortal Wound, and really feels like being impaled by a 10+ metre spear is going to rustle your jimmies.

 

To summarise, my changes would be the altered Implaing Lunge rule, +1 attack, and the +1 Invulnerable for Aegis of the Emperor in a Custodes Detachment. Relative to the Relic Contemptor, the Achillus:

 

- Trades rerolling 1s To Hit for +1 Attack

- Trades 1 AP and Chapter Tactics for +1 Invul

- Pays 25 points for a Lascannon Equivalent

- Pays 29 points for the altered Impaling Lunge rule

 

Thoughts?

Does the relic have a 2+ armour?

 

I would still take it at 1 mortal wound with that attack for 25 less points.

[kombatwombat]

The Relic Contemptor does indeed have a 2+.

 

I’m generally of the opinion that Custodes should have better rules rather than be cheaper as a general rule, so I’d prefer it be more expensive with the uprated Impaling Lunge, personally.

[pompeyladbfp]

same as the the above we don't want the moon on a stick...but a slight points drop and 5 attacks base would be awesome sauce. quite happy with the bonus mortal wound on a 6 tbh

 

shield guy id like 3+ inv and -1 to hit in combat when he is released.

[Honda]

I haven't seen anyone mention that the grav carrier is only one per detachment. Seems odd, though it could be to reinforce the relic nature of the vehicle.

 

Thoughts on whether or not there should be a limitation?

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I haven't seen anyone mention that the grav carrier is only one per detachment. Seems odd, though it could be to reinforce the relic nature of the vehicle.

 

Thoughts on whether or not there should be a limitation?

I'm ok with it as even if they do fix it and drop it 100 points o can't see myself taking many as then I'm cutting into units that can score.

 

I think fw went over cautious not to spam their units so local scenes could ease into the idea of finally letting up.

[General Strike]

I'm going to send my email today to FW about the agreed upond changes.

[wildweasel]

With how many playtest games?

[General Strike]

Just one, using a fake spear dread and a LR as a carrier. I agree on the assesments for those two, and they are the only ones I plan to buy real models for anyway.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Detachment restriction is laughably easy to circumvent

[MARK0SIAN]

I don’t like the principle of restricting any units in the game just because it’s forgeworld. However in the case of Custodes it won’t make much of a difference because you’re unlikely to ever be able to justify more than a couple of them in a list anyway, purely because of the points cost of various units. And it’s fairly easy to run at least two detachments in a game so two of everything is probably more than you can afford anyway.

 

The only thing that irks is the coronus is the Custodes only transport that isn’t a 400 point land raider. It seems harsh to restrict its use to 1 per detachment. Like I said though, it’s unlikely to be an issue, just more a point of principle :)

[Honda]

you’re unlikely to ever be able to justify more than a couple of them in a list anyway, purely because of the points cost of various units. And it’s fairly easy to run at least two detachments in a game so two of everything is probably more than you can afford anyway.

 

 

Comments:

 

1. Incent the behavior you want to encourage.

2. Our group primarily plays Apoc, so we use larger points than most standard pick up games or tournaments.

3. If the restriction is arbitrary, then why have it. If it is to reflect "fluff", then Ok. I'd just like to know.

 

As it stands, the existing force org structure seems to cover balance of units in other armies fairly well. Why introduce a sub-restriction. since the points total of a force already covers that? It's not like it cost the same as a rhino. There's only so many of them you can squeeze into a brigade or battalion anyway, so why bother?

 

Unless there's a fluff reason, e.g. no STC, all current working examples are 10,000 years old, etc.

[wildweasel]

The PDF indicates the deployment limits are to reflect how rare they are, but are not final.

The interesting question is if being able to stack them by forfeiting CPs via Auxiliary Support Detachments is intended.

[Gentlemanloser]

Rare... As they don't benefit from the AC detachment bonus, then you can spam many ultra cheap patrols to gain as many of them as you wish.

 

In before the detachment number limit. That's a suggested guideline for organised events.

 

There's nothing bar house rules to stop anyone using 13 detachments if they so wish. If you're not at an organised event that limits the number of detachment you can take ofc.

[Stoic Raptor]

I haven't seen anyone mention that the grav carrier is only one per detachment. Seems odd, though it could be to reinforce the relic nature of the vehicle.

 

Thoughts on whether or not there should be a limitation?

 

Given the flak we sometimes get for the bike army, it's not surprising.  

I'm inclined to agree with Hellex, the best way to get this sort of stuff accepted by playgroups is to not overdo it.  Remember how much people loathed the Eldar bike tank armies of 6th and 7th?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Forge world put a restriction on marine relic vehicles too. It's not balance really, since chaos can spam them with no problem, all fluff

[TheHarpDaddy]

Honestly I don’t really mind how many points the Coronus carriers end up, as long as they remove the “one per detachment” limit I’ll be happy. Perhaps changing their role to a dedicated transport slot would limit spam? They’re incredibly expensive points wise at the moment, and if FW is worried about spamming them in a Spearhead Detachment I think dedicated transports would solve that issue. I just want to field two!!

[TheFinisher4Ever]

The Coronus absolutely should not have a detachment limit. It's just transport with a couple of guns and it's expensive as hell. If you run 2 of them, you have almost 800 points of transports on the field. If someone wants to do that, let them.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Game 1 with the test models was...underwhelming.

My list: 

Detatchment 1: batallion

Shield capt'ns on bikes X2 knives

3X3 man squads of troops all spears and knives

1 Dread achillius

1 coronus transport with 5 wardens w/axes

 

detatch 2: 

HQ- elite detatchment 

Shield cap on bike with knife

1 vexillas in termie armour 

achillus dread

Allarus x8 with axes and knives 

2999 points with 7 command points. 

Took relic banner of psychic denial, warlord had denial trait.

His list was morty, 2 greater unclean ones, one was a character with the twig in his hand, a bunch of beasts of nurgle, 2 plague crawlers, 3 plague drones, a bunch of the nurgle drones, 2 hellburtes, 2 daemon princes one with relic armour. 

Nasty list of toughness.

The dreads did ok! taking one crawler down half wounds in first round, and he had so little ranged fire power it was more of a press in and grind you to dust list. 

I was impressed by the dread but then the prince's avoiding them because of the big damage spears helped but morty chewed through one in a turn while the other was tied by a stupid plague craweler and then a drone.

The coronus...was super useless here. Wasn't able to really hurt much but blow away a few beasts of nurgle through the whole game.

It did get plinked down quick by the hellbrutes...so I have no idea what I even kept anything in it for. I honestly had no use for it. Las cannons would have been more helpful to reach out and tickle the brutes. I couldn't press forward with it due to a freaking wall of flesh called great unclean ones.

Morty DID fall to wardens which was giggle inducing. 

Dreads worked good in this case. Missing that base str8 though, as the plague burst got both an armour save, and was only wounded on 3's. I rolled a single six...and it was so underwhelming when he got a disgustingly resilient roll off. 

I think nurgle is the most troll army in this game, capable of spaming mortal wounds and shrugging them off. It cracks me up. 

I honestly liked the freaking lastrum bolters more than the spear's gun. Legit they could drop the random shots off from it drop it 40 points and call it a day, str8 would be a cherry on top though. And get rid of the stupid SINGLE mortal wound. I agreed with whomever said 2d6 on a 6 for damage would be better. Completely agree.

All in all the coronus...would have loved to have left it off for boys on bikes.