Thoughts on "The Blender"

[superwill]

Hey guys!

 

So everyone knows and loves Cpt Smash, and in a lot of games he's an absolute pocket rocket who, with enough CP support, can even bring down big tanks or flyers.

 

But I find that he often ends up really exhausting my CP supply for such jobs. By the time you make him DC, use Forlorn Fury / DoA, Red Rampage and then use Honour the Chapter, you're in for 7 CPs, and probably another one in the for a command re-roll.

 

Which, if that's your best way to kill a tank/flyer is fine, but I've been trying to experiment with some other builds for my Cpt that don't dry the CP pool in a single gulp. Unfortunately without spending those 7/8CPs he can't reliably bring those tanks down, so I've been thinking "if he's not there to Smash a vehicle/monster, what else can he do?"

 

And one possible thought is to run my captain as a twin lightning claw guy. Pound for pound he's one of the best anti medium-infantry options in the codex, getting 5 attacks, hitting on 2s with re-rolls, wounding most infantry on 3s with rerolls and the big hitter is the ability to still choose Artisan of War as your trait once you know what you're up against.

 

Still plenty capable of killing multi-wound models, and can be effective even with no CP support.

 

Do you think you would ever run The Blender over Cpt Smash? Or is that extra damage and strength always worth the points, the minus to hit and no rerolls to wound?

[Explorer1]

I guess it depends on the role you want the Captain to take. The thing is, in my list, I usually have loads of stuff that can deal with medium infantry (death Company for example) but fewer things that can deal with big monsters, flyers and super heavies. So, even with the CP hungry nature of Captain Jumpsmash, he's still worth it (and I run a guard brigade with the CP Miner, so I'm seldom short of CPs).

 

But all that to one side, the Blender build, is still a sound option. Maybe if you're thinking of running a 2nd captain, the Blender would be a good alternative. 

[Panzer]

You usually don't even need to use half of the Stratagems you listed. Just the D4 Hammer alone is already a big deal. Tho I'd always take the relic Jump Pack as well for obvious reasons. Everything else is just icing on the cake. The reason the DC Stratagem gets usually taken is because you have to pick it before the game unlike with the other Stratagems so better safe than sorry.

 

tl;dr usually the Captain only needs 0-2 CP to do his job

 

 

Edit: also you might find this thread a good read http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/342336-captain-builds-8th-edition/

Edited February 14, 2018 by sfPanzer

[Leonaides]

Took the twin claws captain in a game vs eldar, only really got 1 good charge in because he put a wraithknight in a 750pt list (forgot to add points for guns!), but that 1 charge cost him 3 warlocks, 2 attacks on each, D2 per hit from artisan, 6 hits, 6 wounding hits, 2 saves made total but all 3 dead...

[Blackcadian]

That build seems interesting to say the least. You’re making some valid points for sure, and I had a good think about it.

 

For me personally it comes down to this: “Which, if that's your best way to kill a tank/flyer is fine, (...)”.

 

In the lists I run he IS the best way to take out vehicles or monsters. I can’t think of something to easily and cheaply replace him. He’s fast, fairly sturdy, cheap and can be boosted with CP if required. For anti-infantry duty I see plenty other solid options in our codex, first and foremost our Death Company.

[superwill]

sfPanzer, I know math doesn't always translate into tabletop, but running some numbers on Cpt Smash:

 

If you take him with just the DC strat, giving him +1 attack, statistically he'll do about 8.75 damage (that's with the 4 damage hammer) in a turn against a Leman Russ. Against a Land Raider, it's just under 7 damage. With a bonus two attacks from Red Rampage, that goes up to 9.7 damage.

 

Assuming you use either FF or DoA to get in, that's already 4 CPs and you're going to need another swing. That's pretty much been my experience too. He can pop rhinos with just those 4 CPs, but for anything medium-heavy (letalone someone with an invuln like Morty's) he's going to easily need those 7CPs. In the half dozen or so games I've taken him, he's either managed to half-kill his prey, or he's needed to use a tonne of my CPs.

 

Blackcadian, that's a fair point, and if we need him on tank duty then I guess we just shell out the CPs. Personally I tend to run killshot preds which carry the heavy lifting, but also give my D.C. a bunch of hammers, as even though they hit on 4s instead of 3 and do flat 3 instead of 4 damage, you can throw 4 or 5 in a squad and you'll only need a single swing to kill something.

[Blackcadian]

Hm are you sure that math is solid? 5 A => 4 Hits => 3 unsaved wounds roughly, no? Sure swinging again isn’t optimal but he might not roll on his own or get re-rolls from Lemartes or a Lt. Or that tank might have taken a hit already by a ranged weapon from a TAC Squad. And even a severely damaged Russ that has to back out of combat isn’t so bad imo.

 

I also bring DC, but only with 2 hammers atm. And yeah, got no Preds here :(((

Edited February 14, 2018 by Blackcadian

[superwill]

Yeah, I tend to use fractions in mathhammer rather than rounding it off. Even though of course you can't roll "2.64 wounds" in real life, it gives you a more accurate picture of his damage output than just rounding things up or down.

So against the Leman Russ, 5 attacks, 4 hits, 2.64 wound, 2.19 unsaved, x4 damage each  = 8.76 damage. Now of course he can't actually do 8.76 damage, but the point is that it shows he's much more likely to do 8 than 12.

Against a rhino he's a good chance to do enough to kill it with only using the 1-3 CPs (1 on DC and 2 on however you got him close to the rhino). But I still generally find that the four hammers in the DC squad is more effective and less reliant on CP boosting. Then again, it's also $$ in points, so I guess you're either paying for it in one currency or the other!

Edited February 14, 2018 by superwill

[Panzer]

I think your mistake is that you look at him in a vacuum. Just because the Captain is such a beatstick it doesn't mean he has to do all the work alone. Sure he can't very likely oneshot a Leman Russ on his own but the whole thing changes if you soften the Russ beforehand with some Lascannon shots etc.

[superwill]

Mmm, I'm not sure why you think I'm looking at him in a vacuum? I'm not saying he needs to one-shot tanks to be good. But the point is that if you're running your Cpt as an anti-tank killer (Smash) it's worth calculating how much damage he does, both with and without CP support. And without it (spending the zero to two CPs you suggest he needs) you really don't do enough to justify his cost. If you can even get him into combat somehow, you'll do your 4-8 damage and that's it. You'd be better off buying a bunch of lascannons.

 

Without CP support, he's just not great in a tank Hunter role. What I'm wondering is whether the captain is more naturally suited to a medium infantry killer, and if twin claws and artisan of war is a worthwhile combo or maybe there's better.

Edited February 14, 2018 by superwill

[Panzer]

Because it sounds like you're saying he's not worth it if you don't pump him full with CP which is definitely far from being true.

[Brother Crimson]

Twin LC artisan captain is good, the problem is that he is redundant with many other units that most of us uses. Hammertime brings a damage output that complement DC really well. The other downside is that you lose shield/melta shots. 3++ or a d6 dmg attack can change games.

 

As CP usage the one stratagem that I find a must every turn is red rampage for extra 1-3 attacks. DOA is good too but it will depend how you are deployed. Honour the chapter is the trickiest one to time right and sometimes you are better off saving for an extra red rampage and only in death..

[Indefragable]

Captain

-jump pack (relic or not can be a game time decision)

-twin lightning claws

-Warlord Traits: +1D, 6+++ re-rolling 1's, or the +1A from BRB depending on game time decision)

-burn a CP to make him Death Company

 

For the cost of 21x melta bombs you get potentially 7x +1 To Wound AP-2 possibly D:2 attacks hitting on re-rollable 2's, re-rolling all failed To Wound rolls. 

...with Angel's Wing you can re-roll Charges and prevent enemy Overwatch.

...or pair with Lemartes to get the re-roll Charges to put the Relic on someone else

 

Would you like to add cheese to that?

-pair with the Sanguinor

-psychic powers

-all them juicy strategems to get +D3 Attacks and/or Fight Again (!!!)

 

The beauty of this build is that for bargain-bin pricing, you have a unit that can either go off solo'ing Devastator/Hellblasters/equivalent units or be paired up with your main melee line for even more ridiculousness.

 

I personally have used him to give re-roll 1's to backline shooters and then popped Wings of Fire to have him go solo an opposite flank of the enemy.

 

He's never disappointed.

 

Did I mention he costs

105

points ?

[Brother Crimson]

No doubt he is great but it really depends on the rest of your list.

 

If you are running 3 preds gunline and need a commando captain that will tear down heavy support infantry LC does a wonderful job.

 

If you play lots of DC and Sanguinary guards and require an extra punch to take down dreads, leman russ etc, the hammer is better because it complements the list. I tend to play this version as I like the reroll 1 to DC bolter shots and I just enjoy more assault based army than gunline.

[Indefragable]

No doubt he is great but it really depends on the rest of your list.

 

If you are running 3 preds gunline and need a commando captain that will tear down heavy support infantry LC does a wonderful job.

 

If you play lots of DC and Sanguinary guards and require an extra punch to take down dreads, leman russ etc, the hammer is better because it complements the list. I tend to play this version as I like the reroll 1 to DC bolter shots and I just enjoy more assault based army than gunline.

 

Absolutely. As always, the usual disclaimer of "what the rest of your list looks like" plays into it. I have found that Captain Blender is an awesome asset in almost any situation where you can take him. Heck, I would even argue that he could potentially replace a unit of VV or such if you really wanted to. The secret is that he can hide as a character but also solo a decent # of units. If you bring him alongside SG or DC, then he can break off and do what they can do as well and be a force multiplier.

 

Long story short, I'm a fan.

[Diagramdude]

Porque no los dos? I could see both the Blender and Slam in the same list, you need 2 HQs in most lists anyway, and you don't need to pick relics/WL traits/pregame strats until you see the opponents list.

[superwill]

Thanks Indefragable, great to hear from someone with some field testing experience!

After processing some of the banter here, I think I'm ready to set out "the case for the Blender":

The case has been made that Cpt Smash is solid enough on his own and doesn't really need much/any CP support. Taking him purely on his own merits, how good value is Cpt Smash, compared to other options in the dex? And similarly, how good is Cpt Blender compared to other options in the dex? The following method of analysis is never going to be perfect, but as a rough guide I believe it can be helpful.

 

Captain Smash has the same damage output against all* targets as 2.5 charging Death Company hammers.

Cpt Smash costs 114 points

2.5 Death Company cost 89 points

This means that when looking purely at damage output Cpt Smash has a 0.78 efficiency rating when compared to the nearest equivalent unit.

 

Captain Blender has the same damage output against medium-heavy infantry (eg primaris or termies) as either 4 Sanguinary Guard near the warlord, 5 Sanguinary Guard not near the warlord, or 6.5 DC with powerswords.

Cpt Blender costs 105 points

4 Sanguinary Guard cost 140 points

5 Sanguinary Guard cost 175 points

6.5 powersword DC cost 155 points

This means that when looking purely at damage output Cpt Blender has between a 1.33 and 1.66 efficiency rating when compared to the nearest equivalent units. (and actually those numbers flatter the SG, who are presumed to roll a 2 for damage each time, but in reality will lose some of that by rolling a 1 for damage)

 

Now, some people might look at that data and say something like "But Captain Smash isn't just the equivalent of 2.5 hammer DCs. He's tankier, he's a character, he's easier to hide, he gives an aura" etc. Those points are true, but they're also just as true for Cpt Blender. The point here is really just to measure "which weapon / role is better suited to the captain, and which weapon / role are we better off getting other units in our armies to fill?"

 

And looking at the data, I would say we have a more efficient option for Vehicle / monster hunting in our DC hammers (not to mention lascannons etc). Whereas, when you compare Cpt Blender to our other units that fill the same role (high AP weapons that can take down heavy infantry) Blender is actually more efficient than the already very capable SG or DC.

 

I'm not selling this 100%, but I like to play around with ideas like this. Feel free to tear it to shreds

Edited February 15, 2018 by superwill

[Diagramdude]

For your analysis how do you determine smash is equivalent to 2.5 hammer DC? 2.5 hammer DC is 7.5 attacks hitting on 4s. Did you give smash the relic hammer or Artisan of War?

 

One hammer DC is 36 points, where are you getting 82 points for 2.5 DC?

 

Similar questions for Blenders comparison. Did you give him artisan of War? Flat 2 damage is inherently different from D3 even though d3 average is 2. Lightning claw is AP -2, SG swords are -3, axes have str5 not str4.

 

Also your smash to DC hammer comparison is good because you're making a comparison statement against ALL targets. The Blender one is less so because the target choice "medium-heavy infantry" is much more narrow.

[superwill]

Ahhhhh, you had me scratching my head for a bit there, but looks like I made a battlescribe error. It says 33 points per DC, but then it's an extra 3 points for the JP which is listed separately. I'll redo the numbers for 36 points per. That also makes the 6.5 powersword DC an extra 19.5 points more than what I'd calculated.

 

Yep I gave Smash and Blender Artisan of War (most of the discussion above has been about those builds). And yeah, flat 2 is very different from d3, which as I mentioned really flatters the SG.

 

Yeah totally, Smash vs DC hammers is a great comparison, whereas Blender vs SG / DC isn't as ideal because they've got more differences between them. The calculation is just against a couple of example units. Obviously against 1 wound infantry the DCs with swords become much better, or if you swapped out some SG swords for axes then you're better off against certain targets. Short of running endless calculations against all possible enemies though, it just gives an indication of where Cpt Blender fits when compared to other similar and popular choices.

[brother_b]

I've been considering building a captain with lightning claws. It just seems epic. No other reason. Just awesomeness.

 

With this thread you've all brought forth some cool ideas to go with the awesomeness.

 

Cheers!

[Paladin777]

http://bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_14212/med_gallery_95687_14212_1417177.jpeg

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/gallery/image/228812-0de04795-a5a4-425d-b38b-1eb0c0a5dd46/

 

I figure one of each is the way to go!

Edited February 15, 2018 by Paladin777

[Panzer]

It's also important to note that the Captain Smash can way more easily get its points back by killing something big than Captain Blender who aims to kill infantry.

Also that the things that usually swing back at Smash are things with a low-medium amount of heavy hitting attacks that can get easily swallowed by his 3++ SS save while Blender would usually be facing things with a lot of attacks which either bring things down with weight of attacks or even reduce his save to his 4++ Iron Halo save.

Which means Blender is much more likely to die than Smash (unless you really play him like a throwaway suicide unit but that's your own fault then) while having a harder time to get kill stuff worth more than him during the game.

[superwill]

Actually Panzer, I'm not sure it's necessarily true that he can "way more easily get his points back". As all the above data shows, without significant CP investment he's unlikely to take out anything bigger than a rhino, and in any case we have alternate units who are much better at it than he is (both melee and ranged, your choice). Blender on the other hand can earn his points cost in termies / primaris or equivalent AND do it with better efficiency than our other two main go-to options.

 

Im not sure that Blender is any more likely to die either, unless you, "really play him like a throwaway suicide unit but that's your own fault then" as you say. If you're charging things like hellblasters or aggressors, or even small squads of termies (or xenos equivalents like hive guard etc) then he'll be fine. If you want to add the SS to Cpt Smash, then that's only going to up his points even further (Cpt SS are bloody expensive) and only going to make his damage output even less efficient compared to alternative options.

 

I got nothing against Cpt Smash, he's still super solid, just clearing up that the points you raised aren't quite right.

Edited February 15, 2018 by superwill

[Panzer]

Don't worry, I didn't ignore your data at all. I just don't look at him in a vacuum and consider the rest of the army doing their job as well.

[superwill]

Ha, funny, no joke I was going to say that your previous post was very "in a vacuum" but decided not to.

 

All your talk about how much easier it is for Smash to make his points back and how he's much less likely to die seems to be placing both captains in very specific (and strange) situations and doesn't really give the wider picture. On the other hand, what I'm suggesting is that Cpt Smash is less useful WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF AN ARMY THAT HAS MORE POINTS EFFICIENT TANK-HUNTING, and that Blender is more useful IN THE CONTEXT OF THE OTHER OPTIONS AVAILABLE
 

Anyway, I've seen from other threads that you're a pretty diehard advocate for Cpt Smash which is great, and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Just trying to provoke thought in those who are interested in exploring new ideas. Thanks for the pushback though, it's encouraged me to dive deeper into the concept. And thanks to the people who are keen to / already have used The Blender - keen to hear more stories!