Thoughts on "The Blender"

[Panzer]

Uhm how am I diehard advocate for Smash? I wasn't even the first to come up with it and was actually sceptical of him at first. If anything I'm really open to other builds but I just don't see the point in an anti-infantry Captain build instead of Smash in an army that really has no trouble at all to deal with infantry (like most armies to be honest). As second Captain, sure, but so far he's just that in my book. Second to the Smash loadout.

For me the usefulness of the Smash build is self-evident and nothing you've shown so far made me think the Blender is a better option. Just another good option to take as well.

[The Unseen]

Ha, funny, no joke I was going to say that your previous post was very "in a vacuum" but decided not to.

 

All your talk about how much easier it is for Smash to make his points back and how he's much less likely to die seems to be placing both captains in very specific (and strange) situations and doesn't really give the wider picture. On the other hand, what I'm suggesting is that Cpt Smash is less useful WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF AN ARMY THAT HAS MORE POINTS EFFICIENT TANK-HUNTING, and that Blender is more useful IN THE CONTEXT OF THE OTHER OPTIONS AVAILABLE

 

Anyway, I've seen from other threads that you're a pretty diehard advocate for Cpt Smash which is great, and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Just trying to provoke thought in those who are interested in exploring new ideas. Thanks for the pushback though, it's encouraged me to dive deeper into the concept. And thanks to the people who are keen to / already have used The Blender - keen to hear more stories!

Except I don't think there is more points effecient anti-tank in our book than Captain Smash, except maybe just raw lascannons.

 

Your comparing him to 3 DC with hammers, except you can't bring just 3 of them, you have to take at least 5, which means you've got 2 other dudes there with just chainswords that realistically dont do any additional damage to vehicles/monsters.

 

However, those chainsword guys contribute a lot if you send the DC after infantry of almost any variety.

 

Another thing to think about, against 1 wound infantry, the Hammer isnt doing all that much worse than twin lightning claws, unless your fighting just total chaff, especially if that infantry has a 4+ or better save and is T4 or better.

Against say Primaris marines or Terminators, prime targets for twin LC captain, hammer is still going to do well, but the reverse isn't as true.

A twin LC captain is going to really struggle to hurt vehicles in comparison.

Hammer captain before any CP expenditures, puts out around 9 wounds to a T7 3+ target, claws only eke out just over 4.

For comparison, claws kill 2.15 termies, hammer kills 1.72. Are the claws better here? Absolutely, but I don't think the marginal points savings and slightly better heavy infantry shredding are worth the massive drop off in effectiveness vs heavy targets.

 

And no captain loadout is going to be effecient killing light infantry, and if that's what you have the captain doing, you've either already won, or you've made a mistake, so the small increase the claws give you here I rate a non factor.

[superwill]

Uhm how am I diehard advocate for Smash? I wasn't even the first to come up with it and was actually sceptical of him at first. If anything I'm really open to other builds but I just don't see the point in an anti-infantry Captain build instead of Smash in an army that really has no trouble at all to deal with infantry (like most armies to be honest). As second Captain, sure, but so far he's just that in my book. Second to the Smash loadout.

For me the usefulness of the Smash build is self-evident and nothing you've shown so far made me think the Blender is a better option. Just another good option to take as well.

Ugh, I don't want to be that guy who goes quoting random other threads of yours, but after a quick search history, you do clearly advocate for him in that very specific build, don't really like other builds for him, and even have quite a few posts just about how cool he is. Which again, is great, and hey I like him too. The point of an anti-infantry Cpt. is that people are already taking SG or DC to kill infantry, and the fact that Cpt Blender is actually even more points efficient at it is interesting. In any case, I hear you saying that you don't see the point. That's fine. We all play in different metas. Myself, I've played about 30 games of 8th edition now including a couple of tournaments, and I still find there are plenty of uses for an anti-infantry unit like SG and DC, and therefore also plenty of uses for Cpt. Blender. Your experience may differ.

 

 

 

Except I don't think there is more points effecient anti-tank in our book than Captain Smash, except maybe just raw lascannons.

 

Your comparing him to 3 DC with hammers, except you can't bring just 3 of them, you have to take at least 5, which means you've got 2 other dudes there with just chainswords that realistically dont do any additional damage to vehicles/monsters.

 

However, those chainsword guys contribute a lot if you send the DC after infantry of almost any variety.

 

Another thing to think about, against 1 wound infantry, the Hammer isnt doing all that much worse than twin lightning claws, unless your fighting just total chaff, especially if that infantry has a 4+ or better save and is T4 or better.

Against say Primaris marines or Terminators, prime targets for twin LC captain, hammer is still going to do well, but the reverse isn't as true.

A twin LC captain is going to really struggle to hurt vehicles in comparison.

Hammer captain before any CP expenditures, puts out around 9 wounds to a T7 3+ target, claws only eke out just over 4.

For comparison, claws kill 2.15 termies, hammer kills 1.72. Are the claws better here? Absolutely, but I don't think the marginal points savings and slightly better heavy infantry shredding are worth the massive drop off in effectiveness vs heavy targets.

 

And no captain loadout is going to be effecient killing light infantry, and if that's what you have the captain doing, you've either already won, or you've made a mistake, so the small increase the claws give you here I rate a non factor.

 

Thanks for the reply Unseen, and nice analysis. Good to see that comparison between the two Cpts against different targets.

 

Yeah, you can't take three hammers alone, but it's more of a point-for-point comparison, that to do the same damage as Smash you need only 2.5 hammers which cost less points than Smash. So what you could do instead is take 5 hammer DCs and say that "point for point they will do more damage than Cpt Smash". Or if you wanted, you could take 2 chainswords as some extra wounds. Personally, I just don't think that CC is the way to deal with tanks/monsters in this edition (sadly) and lascannons are still the best way to go. On the other hand, people see SG and power weapon DC as some of our better anti-infantry units, and so to compare the efficiency of The Blender against them you can see that actually The Blender is a pretty good buy.

 

Maybe think about it this way instead. Rather than comparing Blender to Smash, compare him to SG / DC. Both of those are great units, so the fact that he can do it even better is fantastic. But I like your point about Smash's increased versatility.

 

Personally, I think I'll take both, but the issue is do I want a 2D LC or a 4D TH? I'm gonna try out the Blender

Edited February 15, 2018 by superwill

[Panzer]

Yeah I guess I'll stop here. We clearly don't get along well together on this topic.

[superwill]

I'm sure we'll agree elsewhere mate, us Blood Angels need to stick together :)

[Paladin777]

I just want to say that that was one of the most civil “agree to disagree“ finishes I’ve ever seen after things had already started getting slightly heated and the civility of it really kind of makes me proud to be part of this community! Edited February 15, 2018 by Paladin777

[Crimson Ghost IX]

I made a Capt and named him Eddie back when 8th dropped as that seemed the best way to arm him then.

 

Capts and twin LC are good stuff especially if the priest kept up...

 

 

 

Blood Angels with twin LC reap a bigger tally in the codex with +1 to wound from Red Thirst. (It's like a built in priest but better, where is that priest...)

 

 

 

Anyhow, Eddie lost a bit of luster and sat in the box for awhile tho while Smash made his rounds and then he did duty as a Vet Sgt for a bit too.

 

 

 

But lately Capt Eddie has been re-promoted and can be seen kicking it in the rear with the Predators.

 

and his trusty relic bearer Bob (Lt with Veritas who runs like a ...) 

 

While Capt Smash goes forward to the glorious conclusion of his 'mission' as needed.

 

 

 

It's not perfect, but since I was getting sick of giving up warlord and then of spending cp for wisdom on that expensive Libby Dread with the artisan halberd...

 

 

 

I stumbled on this artisan maneuver too.

 

Works pretty good spreading the eggs around, and Eddie gets to kill visiting enemies plenty often.

 

So win win as a loose plan so far =)

[brother_b]

 

I made a Capt and named him Eddie back when 8th dropped as that seemed the best way to arm him then.

 

Capts and twin LC are good stuff especially if the priest kept up...

 

 

 

Blood Angels with twin LC reap a bigger tally in the codex with +1 to wound from Red Thirst. (It's like a built in priest but better, where is that priest...)

 

 

 

Anyhow, Eddie lost a bit of luster and sat in the box for awhile tho while Smash made his rounds and then he did duty as a Vet Sgt for a bit too.

 

 

 

But lately Capt Eddie has been re-promoted and can be seen kicking it in the rear with the Predators.

 

and his trusty relic bearer Bob (Lt with Veritas who runs like a ...) 

 

While Capt Smash goes forward to the glorious conclusion of his 'mission' as needed.

 

 

 

It's not perfect, but since I was getting sick of giving up warlord and then of spending cp for wisdom on that expensive Libby Dread with the artisan halberd...

 

 

 

I stumbled on this artisan maneuver too.

 

Works pretty good spreading the eggs around, and Eddie gets to kill visiting enemies plenty often.

 

So win win as a loose plan so far =)

 

 

Eddie. So metal. I like your idea. Keep him in the  back lines to help with people dropping into the backfield. Let him buff your gun line, that's huge too.

 

Do you give him a jump pack? I would, on wings of fire would let you redeploy as needed towards the end of the game. An objective, linebreaker, shore up a contested objective.

 

Metal...

[Charlo]

BERZERKER BARRAGE!

 

Great idea with captain blender, he'll mincemeat a lot of infantry rather easily. Even Terminators die to 50% of the saves they take with him.

[Paladin777]

If you go death company artisan with red rampage with the blender he’ll likely mulch 3.5 traitor-minators on the charge. Edited February 15, 2018 by Paladin777

[Panzer]

Not that Terminators are much of a problem considering how much they cost. :P

[Paladin777]

Ok then, he’ll still likely mulch 3 tyranids warriors on the charge! Also, 4.6 Primaris too!

[Diagramdude]

Superwill, I think when panzer says capt smash will easily make his points back he is referring to smashs ability to RELIABLY destroy centerpiece units like mortarion or a baneblade or a knight.

 

Smash is basically a 129pt titan assassin who can take 500+ points off the board in one fight phase with enough CP. Yes you may burn 7 CP, but if mortarion dies turn 1 it is completely worth it and the rest of the game is practically mop up duty.

 

Point efficiency is far from everything and Capt smash was in pretty much every top BA list at the LVO.

 

When your 129pt unit kills their super unit and then they have to focus him down before he does it again, he has made his points back easily.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

 

 

I made a Capt and named him Eddie back when 8th dropped as that seemed the best way to arm him then.

 

Capts and twin LC are good stuff especially if the priest kept up...

 

 

 

Blood Angels with twin LC reap a bigger tally in the codex with +1 to wound from Red Thirst. (It's like a built in priest but better, where is that priest...)

 

 

 

Anyhow, Eddie lost a bit of luster and sat in the box for awhile tho while Smash made his rounds and then he did duty as a Vet Sgt for a bit too.

 

 

 

But lately Capt Eddie has been re-promoted and can be seen kicking it in the rear with the Predators.

 

and his trusty relic bearer Bob (Lt with Veritas who runs like a ...) 

 

While Capt Smash goes forward to the glorious conclusion of his 'mission' as needed.

 

 

 

It's not perfect, but since I was getting sick of giving up warlord and then of spending cp for wisdom on that expensive Libby Dread with the artisan halberd...

 

 

 

I stumbled on this artisan maneuver too.

 

Works pretty good spreading the eggs around, and Eddie gets to kill visiting enemies plenty often.

 

So win win as a loose plan so far =)

 

 

Eddie. So metal. I like your idea. Keep him in the  back lines to help with people dropping into the backfield. Let him buff your gun line, that's huge too.

 

Do you give him a jump pack? I would, on wings of fire would let you redeploy as needed towards the end of the game. An objective, linebreaker, shore up a contested objective.

 

Metal...

 

 

\m/, METAL ,\m/

 

=)

 

Yeah man I splash out on the jp always. It's just that damned handy. Relic still goes with Smashfkr tho in my forces since he is a fire raptor finisher etc.

I have a foot Capt with 2 LC too but usually roll a close encounter Chaplain in a transport instead when I am up to that kinda thing.

 

Plus:

1. I painted him nice (by my old blind standards) with Sanguinary Guard bits done with red.

2. My opponents deserve that level of speedy response customer service. Wonderful bastids they are *nod.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Crimson Ghost IX

[superwill]

Superwill, I think when panzer says capt smash will easily make his points back he is referring to smashs ability to RELIABLY destroy centerpiece units like mortarion or a baneblade or a knight.

 

Smash is basically a 129pt titan assassin who can take 500+ points off the board in one fight phase with enough CP. Yes you may burn 7 CP, but if mortarion dies turn 1 it is completely worth it and the rest of the game is practically mop up duty.

 

Point efficiency is far from everything and Capt smash was in pretty much every top BA list at the LVO.

 

When your 129pt unit kills their super unit and then they have to focus him down before he does it again, he has made his points back easily.

If you look back through this thread, I've said many times that Smash can do big plays when you pump him with CPs, so I'm not denying that. But we were talking about what to do if you don't want to throw 7+ CPs at one big play, and actually panzer and I were discussing what he can do without those CPs behind him.

 

I don't think you can really say he'll do it RELIABLY though. Against Morty, spending the 7 CPs will get you:

~7 attacks

5.4 hits

4.5 wounds

2.25 unsaved

9 damage

Swinging twice, that's just the 18 that he needs. And of course, as he can't actually do 9 damage, what it means is he's more likely to do 8 than 12. But in any case, you could say he's 50/50 to take down Morty, assuming Morty doesn't have any defensive powers or use any CP rerolls for his invuln.

 

Against a Knight:

7 attacks

5.4 hits

3.6 wound

2.9 unsaved

12 damage

Swing twice for 24 damage, knight lives on 4 wounds.

 

If he rolls slightly above odds, awesome. But it doesn't take too much to go wrong for him to fall flat.

 

The couple of times I've sent Smash at big targets (one baneblade and twice against Morty) he hasn't done a whole lot, even with CP pumpage. The stats kind of suggest that he's at best a 50% chance to take down one of those things down. Which is not bad, but I wouldn't say it's heaps RELIABLE. In fact, it's one of the reasons I'm hesitant to drain my whole CP pool on a 50/50 chance to kill something big.

 

Yeah I saw him in a few of the BA lists, which supports the high-risk-high-reward nature of the dude. If he comes off, he'll change the game in your favour and skyrocket you. If he doesn't, there goes your CP pool and captain. Some games he'll still be a nifty little pocketknife, but maybe I'm just burned from the flipside and looking for a less draining and less all-eggs-in-one-basket alternative.

Edited February 16, 2018 by superwill

[The Unseen]

You still need other anti-tank options to back him up.

Is he likely going to kill a knight from full health to dead in 1 fight phase?

Not really, though it is possible.

However, is he likely he kills a knight that's got less than 20 wounds left?

Yeah, and that's crazy.

 

And if your running an AM CP Miner, those 7 CPs turn out to be more like 3 or 4 spent.

 

Or like in my case, I run a brigade with 11 CP (I spend 1 for the veritas vitae most games, its pretty easy for it to make its 1 back when your rolling 6 or 7 times a match minimum)

Running the brigade cuts into the # of long ranged anti tank I can bring, as it doesn't run any vehicles.

So I've got some las Devs, 2 quad mortars, and some deep striking plasma.

So spending 7 of 11 of them, which sometimes ends up being more like 4 or 5, to put a massive hurt on my opponents centerpiece, is well worth it.

[superwill]

Yeah totally agree. He can't reliably kill one on his own, even with 7CP, but he can reliably put a lot of hurt on it.

 

Man, 11 CPs, nice stuff. I can usually only manage 7-8. I often run the AP miner too, but depends on where I can fit him into a detachment and whether it's worth losing the Red Thirst on a few of my BA units. I also try to save some points for Killshot when I'm running the preds. In a list that is rocking both the miner and VV, with 11 CPs to start (and maybe kurov's Aquila in there too?) I can totally see that spending 7cps for Smash to mostly kill something big is not such a big deal.

[SydonianDragoon404]

May I ask how you guys are getting 7 attacks on Capt smash? I thought the max for him would be 5, with the death company stratagem giving him +1 on the charge to his base of 4. 

[Pendent]

May I ask how you guys are getting 7 attacks on Capt smash? I thought the max for him would be 5, with the death company stratagem giving him +1 on the charge to his base of 4. 

 

Red Rampage costs 1CP and gives +D3 attacks to a single BLOOD ANGELS character, averaging to +2 attacks.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Awesome thank you

[Indefragable]

“Hey...what’s that on Captain Smash’s hip?

 

Is that an inferno pistol? Don’t those things do D6 Damage—possibly roll 2D6 take highest—and hit on a re-rollable 2+? “

 

There’s yer extra 9pts of scary-slaying goodness.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Indefragable

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Wait wait wait.

What is this Inferno Pistol HERESY?

 

I thought we all agreed the offhand HAS to be a chainsword.

Per the holy post in the thread apocraphal regarding the great Capt.

 

Follow the Sword !!

[Pendent]

I'm fairly sure most of us had agreed on a Storm Shield for the offhand? I'm still a little torn between that and the Inferno Pistol though tbh.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Storm Shield?

* faints

[brother_b]

Like the pure Blood of Sangunius the storm shield protects the righteous, carries him forwards, ever forwards, and delivers the wrath of Baal with hammer with blade with honor with hate.