Astral Aim vs Hive Fleet Jormungandr: Tunnel Network

[Holier Than Thou]

How do these interact?

 

Astral Aim states "units they target with their shooting attacks do not get any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover."

 

Tunnel Networks states "always has the benefit of cover for the purposes of shooting attacks."

 

So do they get cover or not?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Dam13n]

No benefit. They count as being in cover but gain no benefit from it against any attack that ignores cover.

 

So no +1 to their armour saving throws.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Dam13n

[Holier Than Thou]

I am the Grey Knights player so I am hoping that's the case, but I don't think it's as simple as that because it doesn't say they always count as in cover, it says they "always have the benefit" of cover. The benefit being a bonus to their save. Is there anywhere that states which special rule trumps which when they have opposite effects?

Edited February 14, 2018 by Holier Than Thou

[Eddie Orlock]

Is there anywhere that states which special rule trumps which when they have opposite effects?

No, but this is also largely beside the point.

 

It may be vaguely analogous to the interactions of Culexus Assasins with Dark Reapers. It doesn't matter that the Culexus rule sets the Reapers BS to 6+ when the Reapers have a rule that says they don't reference BS when rolling to hit.

 

So, somewhat similarly, we could argue that the hive fleet adaption tells us to add a cover bonus to their saves, but the GK power tells us to set the bonus to zero, with the net result that the 'Nids get to add zero to their save.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Time to send a message to the Warhammer team and ask?

[Holier Than Thou]

I already have but they quite often get ignored so wanted to see if there was anything concrete I had missed.

 

Eddie Orlock, the GK power doesn't tell us to set the bonus to zero, it doesn't specify a value like your Culexus/Reapers example does. That's the problem. One ability says they always get the benefit of cover (the benefit being a bonus to save) and the other says they do not get a bonus. So always and do not together. Which takes precedent?

[Claws and Effect]

Grey Knights rule takes precedent.

 

Imperial Fists chapter tactic and pretty much any flamer weapon also nullify Jormungandr's rule.

 

Jormungandr's rule literally functions as though the models are placed in a piece of terrain that provides cover at all times. ANY rule that ignores cover bypasses it completely.

 

It's the same as Dark Reapers ignoring the -1 to hit over 12" Raven Guard and several other factions get. The -1 to hit isn't removed, it just has no effect on the Dark Reapers' hit roll.

 

If a unit with a flamer and bolters fires at a Jormungandr unit, the flamer ignores their cover bonus, but the bolters do not. The cover bonus didn't go away, it just has no effect on the flamer because the flamer rule specifically ignores it.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Claws and Effect

[Lysere]

Grey Knights rule takes precedent.

 

Imperial Fists chapter tactic and pretty much any flamer weapon also nullify Jormungandr's rule.

 

Jormungandr's rule literally functions as though the models are placed in a piece of terrain that provides cover at all times. ANY rule that ignores cover bypasses it completely.

 

It's the same as Dark Reapers ignoring the -1 to hit over 12" Raven Guard and several other factions get. The -1 to hit isn't removed, it just has no effect on the Dark Reapers' hit roll.

 

If a unit with a flamer and bolters fires at a Jormungandr unit, the flamer ignores their cover bonus, but the bolters do not. The cover bonus didn't go away, it just has no effect on the flamer because the flamer rule specifically ignores it.

 

Flamers don't ignore cover anymore unless I completely missed something somewhere but otherwise this is spot on. Any rule that counts as benefiting from cover is just that, you can't as in cover. If something ignores that bonus then it is ignored. If they somehow both stay in effect it would be a matter of precedent in which case the person who's turn it is would get to choose, so most of the time you'd still ignore it since it is your shooting phase.

[wildweasel]

While some games make it specific, the overall principle of more specific trumps the more general helps resolve this:

General rule: a unit is in cover if X

More specific rule: these units ignore the X and simply count as being cover under condition Y.

Even more specific rule: this specific weapon/unit ignores the effects of cover (and doesn't ever check how/why the target is claiming that benefit).