Grey Knights taking on Custodes (the 'other' special guys)

[Prot]

So I haven't had a chance to play against a pure Custodes army... in truth I only see one local player trying them that way, and the rest seem to be content making them allies with other armies. That's no surprise, but it's worth mentioning that it appears out of the gate Custodes are probably not seeing single faction competitive/semi-competitive play.

 

I started thinking about making GK lists that would tackle Custodes best. For the sake of argument let's say we are talking mono-Gk vs. mono-Custodes.

 

On the surface GK provide the 'magic bullet' against the mono-Custodes army... that being mortal wounds, and psychic powers. But I think it goes beyond that:

 

- So we have psychic might. Unless the Custodes  are exceptionally lucky using the odd trick in the codex, pretty much anything is going through. This helps with mobility against an army that has very little board coverage so something like Gate becomes more valuable here.

 

 

- Mobility. GK have a lot of inherent deep strike. Usually we're struggling to keep something on the ground to make lists legit. On the ground we have a few choices with inherent speed where the Custodes seem to be heavily relying on bikes. Their bikes are amazing, and super cost effective, but that's the core of mobility plus their own flavour of termies.

 

- Durability. I think to be fair the Custodes have it here... hands down. The numbers aren't going to be numerous for either force, and less so for the Custodes but at T5, plus the legion trait of basically a 4++ is nice. However in a lot of cases I will argue it can be negated, or not a factor. But it definitely helps, and I'd have to say there's probably not a lot of debate on this point.

 

- Shooting. I think overall, and looking at unit options, the GK actually have more flexibility here. I think the stock shooting on the Strike is adequate, and you have some flexibility in the dreads, and definitely the Flyers. (I think a lot of GK players get a little caught up in elite units and Stormtalons / Stormravens are still decent choices). This essentially means GK -should- have the advantage in 'softening' up the opponent from range. Especially combined with deep strike positioning. So that leaves the Custodes specialization:

 

- Close Combat. 8th is really weird for CC in my opinion. The more I engage in it, the more finicky it becomes... characters can be left in the cold, and interrupting can make a multi combat absolute hell for the player initiating it.  With point 1 we could argue Thousand Sons could really excel there as well, but there is the problem of Close combat. I would suggest that GK force weapons are murderous on multi-wound, specialized units.

 

I find the force weapons really come into their own here, whereas facing cultists, orks, etc, then they can feel frustrating. Of course Custodes hit like a gold brick, but in 8th it's really about the charge and I'd argue a lot of GK units can and do severely threaten the livelihood of any Custodes that get charged.

 

Character wise Gk are no slouch here either. I mean I personally love Voldus for fluff reasons as well as game play, but Draigo is a beast, and we know how strong the Brother-Captain Dreadnights are. Let's be fair, almost 100% of soup lists that cherry pick GK take THIS unit. Do you think that wold change with Custodes? Perhaps a character on a bike, surrounded with Custodes bikes (detachment) will be the norm but for the sake of this argument, I don't know enough about all the choices Custodes have, but I still think GK have some of the most fierce, infantry based, characters in the game.

 

I started to realize out of all the armies I play perhaps GK would present the biggest threat to Custodes.... What do you guys think?

[Gentlemanloser]

I've been using custodes for a while.

 

And GK aren't the best to face them.

 

Our main offense in SB just bounce off them.

 

In CC we need hamnerhand up just to remain on an even footing. And with Swooping Dive, Preatorian Plate and army wide HI they can swamp us in CC.

 

Facing us if going pure (Which is silly for the AC. They work with SoS and require some anti psy) they will take the deny warlord trait and cp a second.

 

They save them for Purge/Vortex and try to soak our 1d smites with thier innate 6+++.

 

In CC they will murder us. And they suffer the same lack of long range shouting we do.

 

Now if they're using they beta FW rules that's awhile new game...

[Corvus Fortis]

I think, with good positioning GK can easily outplay custodes with missions. I had only one game against pure custodes since codex (not the most competivive list though) and thats what I've learned.

 

1.Everything they touch in close combat is dead. Probably GMNDK or Draigo will survive. Otherwise, they bring too much high AP attacks for any squad to withstand them.

2.They are slow. Basic Custodes troops will take the whole game to reach other deployment zone. And some of them will have to make it on foot, because Reserves rule. 

3.6+++ is no defence from psychic powers. My opponent made it once out of 7 turns.

4.The are not as durable as they seem. Vexilia is the primary source of defence. Any unit that was out of its aura went down very quickly. It took less than half of my shooting to take down 3 Allarus in cover. Eventually they fail 4++ and 2+. 

5. LR can be dangerous but not durable. 2+ Lascannons with PotMS can one-shot anything. But when he eats several lascannons or meltas himself, he becomes a useless box. 5++ was a solid protection against meltas. Now he is not much more durable than any LR and costs more. LR on the table is always a present for Custodes opponents.

6. Lascannons are your friends. As always.

7. They suffer a lof from any loss. If you can remove 1-2 models from a squad, their killing potential drops drastically.

8. Bring Stormraven. If Custodes do not have bikes or LR, they cannot hurt it unless you let them. Simply no long range shooting. No charging flyers. It also has several multi-damage weapons. For bikes it will be priority target. If bikes don't kill it, it will kill bikes. 

 

So, perfect list for Custodes for me:

 

Draigo

Voldus

GMNDK (hammer is, probably, better here because is one-shots most Custodes models and every roll of 1-2 for Damage on Sword is a waste of attack)

BroCap (24 range Smite is perfect here)

3x5 Strikes

Shooty VenDread 

Ancient with Relic Banner (d6 mortal wounds for 12 inches)

2-3 Razorbacks with Lascannons 

Stormraven with Lascannons and Typhoon (Meltas are not much better because of 4++ everywhere and you want to stay away)

 

Bikers are priority, If you manage to kill them, Stormraven will be almost invincible. Concentrate on mission, avoid combat as long as possible, if it is unavoidable, try to charge fist - you will have at least some attacks before your guys die. Gate is your best friend. As long, as there are no bikes, you can kite slow custodes with no effort. 

 

Custodes internal balance is one of the best among codecies, imo. But competitive-wise they look worse than GK. I do not even think, they are important as allies (most armies demands cheap bodies, long range shooting or psychic might\defence, thats why IG is a perfect addition to any Imperial army). They may look scary, but they are an elite army in 8th. And we know what is an elite army in 8th. The only list I've seen so far marked as competitive by the author is 12 Caps on Jetbikes with Culexus.

[Prot]

I agree with the Stormraven info... my only issue is unloading stuff from it... but otherwise I also came to the realization bikes with 'fly' is about it for really hurting it.

 

Interesting note about the Vexilia, it makes sense they will rely heavily on it. And that 6++ isn't worth squat... that's not a number you rely on, that's a number you're crossing your fingers on.

 

Bikers seem the best.... And Stormraven is a good counter to a lot the units, it makes me think about pulling out the Stormhawk again. It's pricey but so much has fly now. Stormtalon is a good option too, but not as safe... nice little pill box though. Back to Razorbacks with Las I guess. Always solid.

[skarn]

The CC phase is interesting, the custodes will murder anything they charge aside from draigo and gmdk, but charging gk are a real threat to custodes too.

Ive played custodes 3 times now and in each game the gk have punched well above their points value in CC. I'd go as far to say that gk vs ac games will usually be centred around who can facilitate the best charges.

[Waking Dreamer]

What would be the best ways to deal with the Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought? It's current beta rules are:

 

M9"/6"/4" BS2+/3+/4+ WS2+/3+/4+ S7 T7 W12 A4 Ld9 Sv2+

 

Wargear:

- Achilles Dreadspear (shooting): 36" Heavy d3 S9 AP-3 Dd3

- Achilles Dreadspear (melee): Melee S14 AP-3 Dd6 Abilities: Damage rolls less than 3 count as 3.

- Lastrum Stormbolter: 24" Rapid Fire 2 S5 AP-1 D1 (Has 2 Lastrum Stormbolters)

 

Abilities: 5++ / 6+++

- on the charge, hit rolls on a 6 inflict an additional MW

- when reduced to 0 wounds, roll a d6, on a roll of a 6 every unit within 2d6" suffers d3 MWs.

 

 

The immediate answer is probably the same one for when other armies see our GMNDK across the table...lascannons! However, when in comes to alternatives for our unique GK units what would you use? Currently, my GK army is low on lascannons so I need suggestions for suitable substitues.

 

Would you even engage it in CC, and if so what units would you use, GMNDK, Draigo, Paladins? 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Waking Dreamer

[Prot]

In most of my lists, quite frankly I'd ignore it until I had to deal with it. Basically I see the Achillus as a Custodes lascannon tank. The whole army hits hard in CC, but unless I have something that is directly threatened by D3 shot that basically amounts to (on average) a 2 wound lascannon, it's something like... 230 points?

 

When the time is right, I'd ram any unit with Hammer hand or let one of the hammer guys take care of it.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Venerable Dreads with twin lascannon and missile launcher would be the way to go for ranged support. There are better options outside the codex, but for pure GK that's about as good as it gets.