New Battle-Brother with Questions

[Icosiel]

Hey, community!

I've only recently gotten into this hobby, and I've taken up the banner of the 666th. I work at a gaming bar in Seattle, and thus I've played a ton of 40k in my first six months.

 

Most veterans I talk to tell me that the Grey Knights were once one of the most OP armies in the game. The local community still regards our Chapter with distaste and dreads the idea of facing the Sons of Titan on the tabletop.

 

So you can imagine how crestfallen I am after losing 80% of the games I've played.

 

I'm in a Planetary Empires campaign right now, and I've had the joy of facing a lot of different armies that I haven't played before. Every other Codex seems to be twice the length of ours, and has a ton of interesting stratagems that can really turn the tide of a battle. I'm usually running a Vanguard Detachment or two, so I'm always strapped for CPs. I feel like... again, I'm just a neophyte, so I may be talking out of my ass, but it seems that the Grey Knights' stratagems and units in general are all way over-costed. Primary example is our Terminators. I bought three boxes initially because they look rad as hell, and I had a ton of fun painting them. But the abundance of AP in this game means my 2W Terminators seem to shatter to all but the most basic of firearms. At 210 points for the base squad, I'm very sad when I lose them all turn one.

 

A primary example of this, and the Stratagem-cost issue:
I played Thousand Sons yesterday. 1500 points, I had 5 CPs. I flew in my Stormraven over an objective on my first turn and deepstruck Draigo behind it so that it could reroll al of its failed hits. Prior, I had spent 2 CPs to use Heed the Prognosticars on Draigo. An investment, yes, but I was certain that a 2++ would keep him around until the next turn when I unloaded everyone.

Imagine my despair when Ahriman cast Death Hex on Draigo. I spent nearly half of my CPs, and with one Psychic test he negated the invuln save and then melted my keystone HQ with Inferno Bolter fire.

 

The previous game my Stormraven got annihilated turn one by a squad of Dark Reapers, and then my Paladins were sitting ducks in the middle of an open field, ready to be tabled next turn.

 

When I face Orks or Guard, I simply don't have enough attacks to deal with them all, and enough AP 0 shots will get through a 2+ save eventually.

 

Even against Daemons, supposedly our preferred foe, I struggle. For 3 CP I can make one of my units fight again--for 2 CP, my opponent can bring back his squad of 30 Bloodletters or his Bloodthirster at full strength.

 

I'm not sure. I may be just inexperienced, but I feel like I am getting tabled a lot, and every Codex that comes out seems to be leagues better than mine.

 

Am I playing GK wrong?

[Gentlemanloser]

GK were hella op. For a couple of months.

 

Our 5th edition Ward dex dropped at the end of 5th, and was obviously designed with 6th in mind.

 

While 5th remained we were so OP you could literally throw darts at pages and use whatever units they landed on to roflstomp people.

 

Then 6th hit and balanced us.

 

Sadly some folk were far too :cuss hurt by those few months of GK dominance, that the stigma remains to this day.

 

Currently In 8th we are the weakest Codex that has been released.

 

But welcome to Titan!

 

Edit. You've seem to have some of the moody powerful oppinents in 40k.

 

Dark Reapers are probably the most broken unit in the game currently. And Daemons have now been designed to be our Nemesis...

Edited February 15, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Capt. Mytre]

Welcome to GK, the worst codex.

 

There are things you can do to mitigate it however. There are certain units you just don't bring:

 

Terminators

Purifiers

Librarians (most of the time)

Techmarines

Dreadknights

Dreadnoughts

 

A GK army should only really be made of:

 

Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknights

Strike Squads

Paladin Squads

Apothacaries

Ven Dreadnoughts

Razorbacks

Stormraven

Doomglaive

 

You can bring the following depending on the build:

Brotherhood Ancient

Interceptors

Voldus

Botherhood Champ

Draigo

Purgation Squads

Godhammer Land Raider

Edited February 15, 2018 by Capt. Mytre

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd swap Ven Dreads above for Doomglaives.

 

They are the only Dread chassis i'd use.

 

And they are frankly amazing.

[Capt. Mytre]

I'd swap Ven Dreads above for Doomglaives.

 

They are the only Dread chassis i'd use.

 

And they are frankly amazing.

 

They fulfil different roles. Lascannon/Missile Ven Dread are long range firepower, something we sorely lack. With Astral Aim allowing you to target whichever high armour/toughness model you need to kill they are pretty good. Doomglaives are beasts in combat but require to be Gated to actually start doing damage. You can easily counter their ability to get into CC via screening. Heavy Psycannons are good, but not that amazing verse high armour/toughness - better for killing TEQ.

 

Still, added them to the list.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Capt. Mytre

[Prot]

Sorry to hear about the rough start... there will be plenty in here to tell you how horrid the Grey Knights are. I am not that guy. What I will say though is... hypothetically if you are facing that Thousand Sons player again, are you going to plop Draigo in front of a model within range of Death Hex? I highly doubt it.

 

Don't take that the wrong way, we all have to learn. Some people here have been playing GK for years....even though the system changes the nuances are largely the same.

 

Grey Knights are a precision scalpel. Very unforgiving if misused. Just like any elite army, a few key missing models at the wrong time is always going to be a very difficult comeback scenario.

 

I have games where the opponent just has too much to throw at me and it's going to be ugly from the get go. The question is do you like the aesthetic and play style of GK enough to ride it out?

 

Lots of codexes give the illusion of choice. When it comes down to it those choices are down to a handful of strong choices, a handful of mediocre choices, and a sprinkling of outright goofy stuff. This isn't unique to GK. So do you like those staple units enough? Do you like the models, the background?  If you're playing purely to win, I think you may be frustrated ultimately. If you're trying to be competitive, I think you can do that. 

 

There's already good advice in this thread, and a lot of it is a steep learning curve, not just of GK but your opponents too. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Most veterans I talk to tell me that the Grey Knights were once one of the most OP armies in the game. The local community still regards our Chapter with distaste and dreads the idea of facing the Sons of Titan on the tabletop.

 

So you can imagine how crestfallen I am after losing 80% of the games I've played.

 

It's the eternal meme born out of our 5th edition incarnation, which only lasted a few months before xenos armies in 6th got updated and destroyed our position in the meta. Riptides/Wraithknights are only part of the story, in general both Tau and Eldar were stepped up to a level they didn't come down from until 8th (and now with Eldar updated, we're seeing them back in Tier 1 with few meaningful downsides). Tau have yet to be updated, but I feel they will also massively improve with their codex.

 

I would ignore other people's opinions for the most part. Only a small fraction of the player base actually plays GK, and fewer still play them pure (especially in 8th, they're mostly taken as Allies for GMDK's and that's it).

 

Your losses are pretty consistent with most people's experience of the army, especially at this stage when 2/3rds of major factions have an army book now.

I'm in a Planetary Empires campaign right now, and I've had the joy of facing a lot of different armies that I haven't played before. Every other Codex seems to be twice the length of ours, and has a ton of interesting stratagems that can really turn the tide of a battle. I'm usually running a Vanguard Detachment or two, so I'm always strapped for CPs. I feel like... again, I'm just a neophyte, so I may be talking out of my ass, but it seems that the Grey Knights' stratagems and units in general are all way over-costed. Primary example is our Terminators. I bought three boxes initially because they look rad as hell, and I had a ton of fun painting them. But the abundance of AP in this game means my 2W Terminators seem to shatter to all but the most basic of firearms. At 210 points for the base squad, I'm very sad when I lose them all turn one.

 

You should be taking Battalion every game. Also never take Terminators, always Strikes as Troops.

 

Fixing our Command Point issues unfortunately means going outside the codex. Imperial Guard offer a Warlord Traitor and Relic to help out, Ad Mech have a Warlord Trait.

I played Thousand Sons yesterday. 1500 points, I had 5 CPs. I flew in my Stormraven over an objective on my first turn and deepstruck Draigo behind it so that it could reroll al of its failed hits. Prior, I had spent 2 CPs to use Heed the Prognosticars on Draigo. An investment, yes, but I was certain that a 2++ would keep him around until the next turn when I unloaded everyone.

Imagine my despair when Ahriman cast Death Hex on Draigo. I spent nearly half of my CPs, and with one Psychic test he negated the invuln save and then melted my keystone HQ with Inferno Bolter fire.

 

You should probably have burned 'Aegis' strat at that point to protect him, 3D6 pick two highest should stop 'Death Hex'.

The previous game my Stormraven got annihilated turn one by a squad of Dark Reapers, and then my Paladins were sitting ducks in the middle of an open field, ready to be tabled next turn.

 

Dark Reapers are insane this edition. I dunno what they were smoking, giving them fixed Ballistic Skill that ignores all modifiers and multi-damage missiles. They're too consistent and well-rounded.

When I face Orks or Guard, I simply don't have enough attacks to deal with them all, and enough AP 0 shots will get through a 2+ save eventually.

 

It's why you need Allies. Ad Mech Kastellans in particular can dish out the mid-range firepower you need to clear blobs away.

Even against Daemons, supposedly our preferred foe, I struggle. For 3 CP I can make one of my units fight again--for 2 CP, my opponent can bring back his squad of 30 Bloodletters or his Bloodthirster at full strength.

 

Yeah it's pretty stupid. I'm considering (seeing as GW ignored it in the FAQ) house-ruling that its for narrative games only, or that it can only bring back one unit a game.

I'm not sure. I may be just inexperienced, but I feel like I am getting tabled a lot, and every Codex that comes out seems to be leagues better than mine.

 

Am I playing GK wrong?

 

Probably not, although player inexperience doesn't help. As Prot mentioned however, the army is in a bad place and has been routinely downgraded by FAQ changes and other army releases. We're struggling to be relevant.

 

As others have mentioned, you need to build for the meta. Which currently is redundancy, quantity of firepower and multi-damage for big multi-wound threats.

 

- Grandmaster DK: Fulfills a number of these roles, plus he's tankier than Draigo (plus cheaper) and grants a large re-roll 1's aura. I take two, one with 'Gate' and one with 'Sanctuary'. Greatsword is usually better than hammer due to higher accuracy (either is fine), always take gatling psilencer and heavy psycannon, and teleporter is a must because they need to alpha strike.

- Brother-Captain: Until Smite nerfs render this guy useless, he's great for a cheap HQ. I like swapping his nemesis hammer for the 4 damage relic hammer. Usually take 'Gate' so I can reposition him after the alpha strike has landed (as he takes up a slot otherwise).

- Strikes: You need three squads for Battalion requirements. They're actually quite solid (always take falchions btw), they just suffer from Hammerhand being once a turn and the only good buff for them is 'Psybolt Ammo' which eats valuable Command Points.

- Paladins/Apothecary: Paragon always take the hammer, falchions on the other guys. Apothecary always take hammer for same reasons (you're still hitting on 3+). If you have Terminators this is what you use them as. 'Gate' is a good choice.

- Venerable Dreadnought w/twin lascannon+missile launcher: Virtually the only meaningful long-range anti-tank platform we have. Ravens continue to prove to be too many points in one investment. These guys are relatively well-costed compared to a lot of other anti-tank vehicles, they hit on a 2+ if you stay still, and 'Astral Aim' is fantastic when the enemy try to hide their big stuff. I have two, I'm considering taking four.

- Doomglaive: Like a cheaper Dreadknight. I like him, he's been pretty good for me. 'Gate' is essential.

 

I find more and more that GK do lack horde clearing ability. Ad Mech and Imperial Guard both offer solid options in that regard, plus they let you put all the GK stuff in Teleport Strike because they have cheap on-table drops to balance it out.

[Gentlemanloser]

Our Horde clearing is fine. Rather it should be.

 

DS a squad of Strikes and warch horde chaff evaporate.

 

except all horde armies have away of ignoring moral. So when you kill 15 of that 30 sized gaunt unit, the rest should run to moral.

 

But They don't. Being immune to moral.

 

Its nuts. Moral was the horde balancer, yet they all ignore it.

[Beams]

Look, the meta isn't killing big stuff, it's killing a lot of little guys and a big guy or two.

 

Bring a lot of strike squads and a single GMDK. The extra firepower and wounds will go a long way to help you.

[Gentlemanloser]

Tell that to our nid player when he runs 9 fexen. ;)

[Trevak Dal]

Regarding Driago vs Ahriman/Chaos, that was just unfamiliarity with Chaos powers that negate invulnerable saves, against any other army it would have been sound and wise due to the ap modifiers out there.

 

I started collecting in 7th, and I got a lot of terminators too. I don't like the baby carrier, but I got one. I don't rightly care if I win or lose with Grey Knights, they are my favorite army in the lore.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Our Horde clearing is fine. Rather it should be. 

 

DS a squad of Strikes and warch horde chaff evaporate.

 

except all horde armies have away of ignoring moral. So when you kill 15 of that 30 sized gaunt unit, the rest should run to moral.

 

But They don't. Being immune to moral.

 

Its nuts. Moral was the horde balancer, yet they all ignore it. 

 

Honestly after multiple games landing storm bolters en-masse inside 12" and firing them at full efficiency...they're okay. Not bad, just ok. And yeah, horde armies tend to have multiple large units, so really you maybe waste one of them, then the others move in and start picking off your handful of dudes.

Look, the meta isn't killing big stuff, it's killing a lot of little guys and a big guy or two.

 

Well Guard love their Superheavies, I generally see a Baneblade or similar in most of their lists. If you don't take it out ASAP, they will just blow up your lists piece by piece. 

 

Also if you play into Tank Guard, you need multi-damage focused into each Russ/Taurox Prime to ensure they don't just get repaired and then keep shooting you.

 

Tyranids also exemplify this with their monster spam. Storm bolter does very little to Exocrines, Tervigons, Carnifex and Hive Tyrants. One DK isn't going to be able to kill them all, you need two and some kind of long-range multi-damage to handle the others.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or kill them in CC.

[Capt. Mytre]

Or kill them in CC.

 

CC is the worst anti-tank. Screening protects anything important and DS + charging is incredibly unreliable. Units placed on the second story of buildings are almost impossible to make the charge against. In the end, you have a greater chance of being counter charged than making the charge yourself.

[Gentlemanloser]

Storm Bolters and Falchions to kill chaff.

 

Hammers to kill tanks.

 

You can wobbly model syndrom upper levels of ruins. Its only a protection from NDKs / Dreads.

 

Mordrak, Paragons and Apothecaries are fine to CC up top.

 

Plus tanks / monsters can't get up top anyway.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah I hate to break it to all the Paladin/Apothecary fans, but those guys are gonna do literally nothing to Guard or Tyranids if they screen properly.

 

They will send an unbreakable swarm to tie you up (assuming they don't just cut you to pieces with their firepower), and then you're stuck. Basically any army with cheap Troops can do this to you, its one of the primary ways they also neuter our alpha strike.

 

You need Venerables (or allied anti-tank weapons) to blow big chunks out of vehicles and Super Heavies. GMDK's can do the job, but they can't Fly so screening prevents them just the same. If your anti-tank strategy is predicated solely on melee, you will lose. It's why Havoks have seen a resurgence with CSM players, they're cheap and can be made to fire twice with Slannesh strat. Whilst Chaos Terminators are only viable due to Warptime, if they didn't have extra movement off Teleport Strike no one would take them.

 

The other problem with melee as a strategy is that it's unlikely to happen Turn 1, and Turn 2 is only possible if you blow a hole in the screening for your charge lane and don't fail your charge distance roll. Whereas ranged anti-tank just has to not die/be tied up in melee, and can fire from Turn 1. I've given up trying to get Turn 1 charges, my alpha is now about shooting only. I plan to enter melee Turn 2, assuming my Teleport Strike force is still alive.

[Gentlemanloser]

RD i play tyranids weekly. I've lost count of the number of times his big monsters have died to hammers.

 

It's no where near as hard/impossible as you make it out to be.

[Capt. Mytre]

Storm Bolters and Falchions to kill chaff.

 

Hammers to kill tanks.

 

You can wobbly model syndrom upper levels of ruins. Its only a protection from NDKs / Dreads.

 

Mordrak, Paragons and Apothecaries are fine to CC up top.

 

Plus tanks / monsters can't get up top anyway.

 

No, Stormbolters to kill chaff, but certain armies won't care if you kill the chaff, the whole idea is that you guarantee that your prime units won't get charged. If they screen a tank, it doesn't matter if you kill all their chaff, the charge range is still an impossible distance to make that turn. Again, you cannot rely on melee to solve any issues in this game. 27% chance to make it into combat isn't something you can rely on.

 

"Wobbly model syndrom" doesn't fix the fact that "Greater than 9" is measured differently to charge ranges. One is measured base to base (Greater than 9" away), the other is measured horizontally and then vertically. Ie, enemy units are 8" away and 3" up  = 12" charge. Good luck rolling box cars.

[Gentlemanloser]

Move under them first turn. You won't get shot as the floor blocks los.

 

Upper floor of ruins are only good to stop monsters and dreads from being able to assault.

 

They don't do much otherwise.

 

Edit and the best thing. No overwatch.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Capt. Mytre]

Move under them first turn. You won't get shot as the floor blocks los.

 

Upper floor of ruins are only good to stop monsters and dreads from being able to assault.

 

They don't do much otherwise.

 

Edit and the best thing. No overwatch.

 

I'm talking about Deepstriking and then charging. You can't move and you can't DS under them because you won't be +9" away.

 

Even on your second turn it's going to be a 6" charge (72% to make the charge).

[Reclusiarch Darius]

RD i play tyranids weekly. I've lost count of the number of times his big monsters have died to hammers.

 

It's no where near as hard/impossible as you make it out to be. 

 

Then you play bad Tyranid players. With large chaff screens, they can block out their entire DZ with very basic deployment, forcing you to land in the mid-field. You're still in range of the Exocrines, Hive Guard etc, but you are blocked from charging anything meaningful. As a GK player I routinely block out my DZ for the most part, and that's with a handful of on-table drops (Brother-Captain, two Purgator squads, three Dreads). If you don't know how to neuter alpha strikes as a horde army player, you're a bad player. Pure and simple. This stuff predates 8th anyway (back when Drop Pod lists and Deathwing worked).

 

What Cpt Mytre is talking about is the geometry of assault angles. Basically, you have to land 9.5" away from the chaff, which if they're smart about how they deploy said chaff block, means you could be 20" or more away from the gun platforms/monsters/tanks etc you wish to engage in melee (depends on the range of the platform they wish to screen). So you land Turn 1, storm bolter some chaff to death, they remove casualties from the rear and laugh at you. Turn 1 charges, even with 'Fray' trait, are not guranteed, I routinely fail most of mine (they may even choose to remove casualties from the front to deny you charge moves anyway).

 

You are then forced Turn 2 (with whatever survives from their completely uninhibited firing line in the enemy Turn 1) to charge the chaff, as nothing we have can Fly except for Ravens. This is why the jetbike Custodes are so good, they can disengage and re-engage freely and flat out ignore screens if there is room for them to land. Against GK, you just need to block out an initial landing position, which is a lot easier.

 

Assuming you clear out the chaff in melee and exit combat at the end of your Turn 2, you are then shot again in the enemy Turn 2, and they get free reign to reposition sacrificial units to get in your way, moving their valuable stuff out of the way to a better position. Or, even counter-charge you. Even if you don't clear the chaff out of your way in Turn 2 charges, in their Turn 2 they will simply back out of combat and shoot you anyway, and still screen with the survivors. Tyranids and Guard don't care if their chaff can't activate, its not a problem for them.

 

The one time I successfully gutted a Tyranid gunline was because the Tyranid player left a landing zone for me in his backline. If he had slightly altered his deployment to deny me that landing zone, I would have faced the exact scenario I described earlier. As is, it was a close run thing, I lost most of my Strikes and both GMDK's (Exocrines are pure cancer), just managed to down Swarmlord with Brother-Captain relic hammer. He also never managed to shut down my backfield gunline of Venerables slowly sniping his monsters to death, and Purgators clearing out the Genestealer charge he attempted (Doomglaive took the survivors charge, downed the Broodlord and proceeded to slowly kill the rest). This was pre-codex as well. I'm organising a game soon for a rematch, and I predict a bloodbath for me again. Only this time he has Kronos for his Hive Fleet, and a tonne of anti-psyker strategems (along with everything else their codex offers).

[Gentlemanloser]

You guys need taller ruins. ;)

 

Still I'm not talking about first turn ds.

 

Also I'm still not talking about fist turn CC. Yeah your not going to be able to smash the exocrines first turn. You will have to stuck up some shooting.

 

But they do die to our hammers easy in cc.

 

If we could smash everything with first turn charges we'd be the army players are crying about not Eldar.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

He actually got set up on top of a defensive silo in the middle of his DZ, so melee was never going to happen against his gunbeasts. I was flat out dealing with the chaff and melee specialists.

 

Exactly my point. If you have Venerables, you can not only do something Turn 1 to them, you can potentially remove them from the table.

 

Sure, but I'm talking about realistic scenarios. Realistically, unless they want to, Nids and Guard can keep you out of combat with anything important for up to four turns (more likely 3). 

 

Haha you mean we'd function properly. Warptime CSM Terminators, Tyranids, Ad Mech, Guard, Eldar, Marines...anyone with the Infiltrate strategem can plonk a melee unit inside threat range Turn 1. Then proceed to walk up into an easy charge range, charge you, GG. In that scenario, they're engaging Turn 1 very reliably.