What makes Guilliman special?

[DogWelder]

I think Guilliman gets a bad rap for being a 'boring' or 'vanilla' Primarch However, I believe there are many fascinating and subtle aspects to him that makes him special in a unique way among the Primarchs.

 

One is that his true loyalty has always been to humanity (more accurately human civilization) rather than the Emperor himself. I believe this is what truly separates him Primarchs like Dorn and the Lion who are quite similar in other aspects. He's loyal to his ideals of an productive, enlightened and prosperous human civilization that dominates the galaxy through strength but is guided by reason and logic above all else. We can see this in his creation of the 500 Worlds and how much care he put into them (even stating that it could be the new hope for humanity should the Imperium fall during the Heresy).  While he does follow the Emperor because his father's ideals align with his, this is not the unconditional loyalty that other loyalist Primarchs have. If Guilliman feels there is a logical course of action he can take that will benefit humanity as a whole, he will not care about the Emperor's approval on it. This is evidenced by his willingness to work extensively with the Eldar and not engage in the same extreme anti-xenos attitude his father had. (This is actually spelled out more in the Hand of Darkness/Eye of Night audiodramas).

 

Another facet of his personality that sets him apart is his insatiable desire for progress and expansion. He definitely believes that man can master all things given enough time, effort and resources. That you don't have to accept things as they are and must always try to improve/change things for the better. We see that in his radical restructuring of the Imperium both after the Heresy and after his return. Any other Primarch would be satisfied to leave the Imperium as it is and focus on the military aspect of things. But Guilliman took power over the civilian authorities as well, planning to slowly but drastically changing every aspect of Imperial society so that it fits more in line with his vision. Ultimately Guilliman can never leave things as they are. He wants continuous development/progress at all times. In Dark Imperium he straight up orders the Mechanicus to stop salvaging wrecks of old ships in the void. When they protest, he basically tells them "I don't care. Build new ships."

 

Finally I believe he always wanted to be more than just a weapon or tool for the Emperor (hence why he was so bitter about the Emperor referring to him as such). He trained his sons to be rulers/administrators after the Heresy was over and was preparing his Legion for a peacetime standing (he was going to decommission the Destroyer companies in his Legion before Calth). While he did believe the Emperor did create the Primarchs for war, he always wanted to be something more: a true leader to humanity, not just a wartime one, just as he believed Space Marines were not just tools for war but could continue to be an inspiration and source of leadership for humans even in peace.

 

So what do you guys think makes Guilliman special?

Edited February 18, 2018 by DogWelder

[Boldthreat]

I believe Guilliman embodies the hope of Mankind more than any of his brothers.  Yes, he is a genetically engineered super warrior just like the rest of his brothers... but in a sense he is the most human.  Contrast the above post of DogWelder's with this quote from Rogal Dorn:

 

 

 

"Do not look to us for kindness. Do not look to us for hope. We are not the kind children of this new age. We are the rocks of its foundation. If you wish hope then look to what we make. If you wish kindness then look to those who will come after us."

 

I love the contrast between these two Brothers.  On the surface both of them and their legions are considered "Vanilla"... but there is a fundamental difference between them that makes all the difference in my opinion.  One sees himself as just a weapon... and he accepts that wholly and without question.  The other, aspires for more than that.  Guilliman is not just content with re-uniting Mankind.  He wants to be apart of  its rebirth.  He wants his Legion and his Chapter to set the standard of what humanity can be and guide it along the way.  It is a joy to read Guilliman's inner thoughts in Dark Imperium... he is disgusted with what the Imperium has become, and is guilt-ridden over his part in that.  But he doesn't let that overcome him.  He doesn't flee to the Eye of Terror... he doesn't go on a suicidal penitent crusade...  He immediately sets out to right the wrong.  He is the only one of his brothers who could have pulled off the Indomitus Crusade the way he did and bring hope to a dying realm.

 

More than Dorn, more than Russ or Khan or Corax... Guilliman is a hero in the truest traditional sense.  He is truly the one who is raging against the dying of the light of humanity.  The Lion would be consumed with vengeance, Russ would be consumed with vengeance, Dorn  would start a war with the Imperium to make it match what the Emperor wanted it to be... but Guilliman is trying to save it, through politics, logistics, and hope.  He is the only one of his brothers that can do it.

 

As a loyal Son of Dorn who has been a die hard fan of the 7th Legion for over 20 years... Guilliman is awesome, and I think him and his Chapter get a bad rap.  But what can I say; I like my super soldiers to just be Space Marines... I do not need extra gimmicks like  Dark Secrets, Ancient Prophecies, Iron Fetishes, Fur Coats and Blood Curses... I just like heroic dudes with Bolters... and the Ultramarines are the most heroic.

 

All my personal opinion mind you.  

[Brother Tyler]

And just to pre-empt any shenanigans, this is a topic about what hobbyists like about Roboute Guilliman. While well-rounded descriptions of him are fine, replies that are clearly trollish will be dealt with harshly.

 

(I doubt the Ultramarines fans will be doing this, but you never know who's going to wander in.)

 

=][=

[Tamiel]

Guilliman was disgusted at the Emperor when he found out that he never saw him as a son. The Emperor saw everyone as tools, and was incapable of loving anyone. The only thing the Emperor loved was humanity as a whole. When he acted fatherly or pretended to love his sons, it was just that: acting. This disgusts Guilliman initially, but over time he realizes that he is shaping up to be just like the Emperor in this regard. Guilliman realizes that he also sees his sons (the Ultramarines) as nothing more than tools and feels no personal compassion for any of them. He realizes that, just like his father, he only cares about humanity as a whole and, beyond that, everyone else is just a tool for him.

And, in Dark Imperium, this includes his father. Guilliman is not loyal to the Emperor because he loves the Emperor (he doesn't), or because he's his father, or anything of that nature. He is loyal to the Emperor because the two of them follow the same goal: the betterment of humanity. There's nothing personal between Guilliman and the Emperor anymore (and, from the Emperor's perspective, there never was). While some of the other Primarchs might have unshaken loyalty to the Emperor, Guilliman's loyalty lies only in humanity. And, in this way, I believe that Guilliman is the closest person to the Emperor in mindset.

He has already shown that he sees his sons (the Ultramarines) as tools, just like the Emperor. He has already shown that he is willing to lie to his own people for their own survival (in one scene, he says "The Emperor will protect us" to calm his ship, even though he admits in his thoughts that it is a superstitious lie). Guilliman is a spitting image of the Emperor in these ways. Humanity comes first, everything else is a tool to be used.


EDIT: On a completely non-serious note, Guilliman might love his eldar girlfriend, so at least he loves one person. Okay, that was a joke.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Tamiel

[Firepower]

(I doubt the Ultramarines fans will be doing this, but you never know who's going to wander in.)

 

 

:makes sure to wipe his feet on the welcome mat:

 

Howdy folks

 

Well yes, it is a provocative title for a thread.  Anyway, I'm not sure I agree with Guilliman's sense of hope or optimism being a distinguishing feature.  For that, I always look to Sanguinius.  Granted that would leave him the only one by default 'now.'

 

I've always felt his defining characteristic was pragmatism.  Yes, it is a 'boring' trait, but a remarkable one among the Primarch Pantheon...the Primtheon, if you will.  No, never mind, that's terrible.  Anyway, the closest character to Guilliman among the Primtheon Primarchs is widely agreed to be Dorn, but the pragmatism does create a vast gulf between the two.  A deeply ingrained stubborn streak, unquestioning loyalty and a quasi psycopathic killing spree in the name of revenge does not a pragmatic soul make.

 

Whether or not it is boring doesn't negate that it is a remarkable, or 'special' (because every bloody quirk in a Primarch has to be tugged so far to an extreme that it has to qualify as special) trait of his.

 

Although important caveat- I've read very little modern lore on Guilliman.  I think Unremembered Empire was the most recent depiction I read with any real scrutiny, and I don't know how that stacks up on the Ultramarine fan tiers of good v bad fluff.  Of course this means I've voluntarily excluded myself from his most recent, rather dramatic character arch.  I'm an old fart whom doesn't like new things, after all

 

I kind of like that realization Tamiel mentions, though.  There was never a down side to the pragmatic characteristic, like every other Primarch had with his one singular defining trait.  That bit of introspection would do his character some good, in that regard.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Firepower

[Lucerne]

Cowardly, self-serving treason, a bloated ego, and an unmatched talent for rationalization and self-justification in an ugly mess of a Primach.

 

Or rather: being the last one standing and finally seeing that his conniving and backstabbing ultimately amounted to sabotaging the Imperium.

[Captain Idaho]

To me I always liked the way Guilliman brought order and progress to the galaxy as best he could, but as years have progressed and we got more and more information on his character and exploits, my like for him grew.

 

He's genuinely a good person. He is really trying his best to do the right thing. He's not selfish for power, though he has a belief system that he stands by.

 

Even his mistakes are balanced by being human. He's complex.

 

In the Heresy series he's really come alive as a character.

[Ishagu]

I don't think Guilliman hates the Emperor. If anything he is hurt by the truth of how his father felt, and it's made him feel even more alone in the 42nd millennium.

[DogWelder]

I don't think Guilliman hates the Emperor. If anything he is hurt by the truth of how his father felt, and it's made him feel even more alone in the 42nd millennium.

 

I wouldn't say he hates the Emperor. I believe its always been more of a 'loyalty to ideas' for Guilliman rather than 'loyalty to an induvidual'. Guilliman is loyal to the idea of human civilization and progress, not the Emperor himself. The reason he follows the Emperor closely is because (most of the time) he thinks those two things align.

 

However, it means the Emperor doesn't get the same unconditional obedience he gets from Russ, Dorn etc. Which is also why I think was part of the reason the Emperor passed over Guilliman for Warmaster: what would happen the moment Guilliman decided those two things no longer aligned? That the Emperor was acting in such a way that was detrimental to humanity?

 

We see some of that in his willingness to work with the Eldar as he disagrees with his father on the utility of xenos to further humanity's aims.

[phoenix01]

For me, Guilliman embodies the unwillingness to give in. Here he is, alone in the universe (at least so far). None of the people in the Imperium understand him. He's treated like a god by ignorant wretches who live their lives in the darkness of fear and death. His own sons think of him as some infallible father who has lead them in absentia for nine millennia and who now confuses them. He has no brothers to speak with, who understand him, who can sympathize with him. Those who are like him are either traitors and monsters or dead (at leas that is what he believes). His father, the Emperor, has become this wasted wretched thing that has lost the humanity he prized. He faces the daunting task of putting back together again an Imperium that is fractured, not only by the storms of the Warp and the threat of the Xenos, but by the machinations of evil men in positions of power. A task that is for all intents and purposes, impossible.

 

And he doesn't give up.

 

He keeps fighting. Though exhausted in both body and soul (something that he would argue that he even has), he keeps struggling to do the best thing for humanity. He bows beneath the weight of awesome responsibility and expectations that are beyond the pale of unreasonable, yet he will not stumble. Conscious of his weaknesses, he gropes for the right answers, all while being attacked by his corrupted siblings and ungrateful politicians and aristocrats. He despairs at what he might become: an autocratic despot, but he perseveres, reaching for that golden dream so long dead in a grim dark galaxy.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think Guilliman hates the Emperor. It's like when a family member really winds you up and you might even have bad blood but when push comes to shove you still love and stand by each other.

[DogWelder]

I don't think Guilliman hates the Emperor. It's like when a family member really winds you up and you might even have bad blood but when push comes to shove you still love and stand by each other.

 

I'd say he's definitely getting more apathetic towards the Emperor. Several times in Dark Imperium he refers to the Emperor as a cold, unfeeling being and realizes that there's no point in having any sort of love towards someone who's never going to return those feelings.

 

Still extremely loyal for the reasons I listed above but now he sees the Emperor as less of a father and more of a powerful deity he doesn't have any personal attachment to.

[Captain Idaho]

He's definitely more apathetic toward the Emperor and could very well be at a place where he dislikes him and sees him as a means to an end.

 

I'd surmise that it's more complex than that. He refers to the Emperor having changed after 10,000 years, so if he can have this opinion then he could probably have the position that he hates what the Emperor become, not what he once was.

 

So a kinda duality of emotion.

[Prot]

I think a full weight of realization hit Guilliman upon waking up.

 

The obvious:

- Imperium in shambles. Forget expansion, things are contracting.

- Religion. Out of control, and dangerous to deal with

- Chaos Legions; not only continue to exist, but push inward

-  Government. The wrong people push buttons and flick switches. It's buried in bureaucracy.

 

The less obvious and probably most crushing:

- He is alone.

- After Gathering Storm III the full weight of what he is has hit home for him. He is a tool. His love for his Marines, all marines, the Imperium. His preparation for a future that never came...and was never really meant to be. For all we know he was meant to be 'turned off' like any other iteration of warrior or 'tool' created by the Emperor during various conquests of the greater Imperium.

 

That's some brutal stuff. He's also got to live with some mistakes.. he hides the Librarium from all prying eyes. The way the Imperium is surrounded in religion and mayhem, he knows the revelation of the proposed Imperium Secundus would cause mutiny (even though it would be out of context from its original intent).

 

So for now he stands alone. Every decision is looked at as gospel by the fanatic, and questioned behind closed doors by the bureaucrat. Even the technical improvements delivered the front lines are questioned and even rejected by some of the warriors he felt a connection with.

 

Yet with all of this weight, he takes on the persona of an answer to the people. He -does- care about them, even if their true deity does not. He would rather go back to that state of nothingness than have this imperial truth, but the weight of the Imperium demands his attention before it's all gone sideways for good.

 

Some people see another loyal Primarch as challenging Guilliman. I've never seen it that way. I think having a true 'comrade' and someone to share the burden with would be very welcome to Guilliman. I don't think he ever wanted what this has become, what he has become, and what the Imperium has thrust upon his shoulders.

[Brother Captain Ed]

I think it's also worth noting that Guilliman, more than the other primarchs, is a Team Player.  I'm less convinced that he loves humanity as much as he sees it as His Team.  He's struggling knowing that he isn't the demi-god people think/want him to be, but he knows he's more than the weapon the Emperor created.  I think it mirrors his struggle with the Imperium: it's not the great and hallowed institution he set out to make, but knows it can be more than merely the men who comprise it. 

 

I think we overestimate the "love" thing.  He doesn't seem to see anything noble or special about mankind except that he is one of the 20 paragons created to lead it...even if he is the last one doing so.  He has no problem killing traitors and independents by the millions, regardless of how human they may be. 

 

I am an Ultra player and Guilliman is my favorite primarch (even though I have to admit that I am probably more like Dorn), but his nobility is independent of any inherent virtue.  I don't see love, or devotion, or goodness.  Just the Emperor's blade that, heretofore, has been the truest.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Late to the party yet again...... sorry! I think Guilliman is special and had great impact on several level across the millennia.

 

Pre-Heresy era: From the beginning Big Bobby G ( henceforth refered to as BBG) showed a sense of concern and compassion for the citizens of Ultramar. When they were oppressed he liberated them and improved their lot. When circumstances made him the new leader of Ultramar rather than being compelled by ego to make his mark and make huge changes to that end, he simply improved what was already there. While I won't go so far as to say that this showed humility. It did show restraint and thoughtfulness that is rarely seen (even in the real world) when a person of great ability is also given great power.

 

Heresy era: At Calth he quickly comes to grips with Lorgar's betrayal (considering the level of treachery I'd say remarkably quick) and gathers what meager resources he has and sets about saving the day. The interesting aspect about this is that it is neither he or the XIIIth Legion that saves the day..... and this doesn't bother him at all. He sets himself and his Space Marines as the support element so that one humble magos can defeat the Word Bearers.

 

I won't say much about Imperium Secundus. Clearly BBG was enslaved  to the will of the Black Library Horus Heresy Cabal and not responsible for his actions and this dubious idea.

 

Post Heresy era: Drives out the forces of Chaos, stabilizes the Empire, and reorganizes the Astartes. He does all of this and writes a book (Codex). Pretty good for one humble primarch

 

Ten thousand years pass and his legacy is still felt. The Ultramarines, still true to BBG's dream and his Codex remain a symbol of all that is good and honorable in the Space Marines. Ultramar is still the beacon on the hill for the rest of the Empire of Man.

 

Dark Imperium era: BBG wakes up after being dead for over 9000 years, sees that the Empire sucks and that once again Chaos has a knife at it's throat. His reaction?..... the Indomitus Crusade and let's fix this wreck!

 

Brother Captain Ed, I revere you and love you like a brother, but you're wrong. I believe BBG is not just a Team Player. He still believes in the Emperor's dream even if his father (and the Emperor is his father)  is a cold hearted genius  on a level the galaxy has never seen before. He believes that in all the galaxy, human kind alone is exceptional. I believe Shakespeare put it best:

 

                 What a piece of work is man, How noble in person, how infinite in faculty, In form and moving how express and admirable, In action how like an Angel, In 

                 apprehension how like a god. The beauty of the world, The paragon of animals. And yet to me, what is this quintessence of dust?

 

BBG, like the Emperor recognizes man's potential, but like the Emperor, knows that the race must be shepherded to greatness. He sees the big picture too.

 

These are just a few examples and I could go on (don't worry... I won't). Roboutte Guilliman IS special for all of the above reasons and many more..... he is all that and a pickle too

 

Courage and Honour

Edited February 27, 2018 by Brother Lunkhead