duz_ Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 I am gearing up for my tournament season. For my first major I have decided to take my Raven Guard to prove that all is not lost for the Angels of Death. While I was playing around with my list I found with a few minor changes I could go from dual battalion to brigade and score me some extra CPs! I primarily need CPs for SftS. However extra CPs never hurt, right? This question is why I started the thread. After reviewing the SM stratagems to see what I could use my extra CPs for nothing really jumped out at me? The sternguard one seems ok, but I'm not going to take them. The let the character fight again seems good too, but I'd rather not be in the position either. Orbital bombardment is expensive for what it does. My RG dont have any tanks so the killshot one isn't an option either... With the guard codex and even Custodes one I can see great ways to string and leverage stratagems. While the SMs ones dont seem as versatile and considerably more expensive? Am I missing some obvious ones? Or is it the case that with the current SM stratagems I'm better off going for the list build I want without trying to maximise CPs? I did a quick search and couldn't find anything on the topic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmapa Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Im a pessimist in this subject because, like you, I see that the IG/Custodes/BA stratagems are not so tied into units and/or are far more versatile or efficient. Most of our stratagems are kind of crappy and expensive though they are not completely useless they just depend heavily on what you bring and you should pick a couple that you would want to get the most of, the ones that I think are really good are Tremor shells, especially if you have a gunline of sorts and are up against anything thats running towards you, effectively halfing their threat range is top stuff and I would use it if I had Thunderfire Cannons but the model doesnt entice me into getting them Wisdom of the Ancients, turning a dreadnought into a captain for a turn is great if you want a build multiple small gunlines so you can basically spread the bonus around your army, great buffs for dreadnoughts. Honor the Chapter/Only in Death... , I play an assault army and these are the only assault stratagems available, Honor the Chapter is a bit too expensive but its good and really the only buff, besides characters, that I can get for an assault. Strike from the Shadows is easily the best stratagem in the codex, it opens up so many opportunities and makes your army much more versatile with little investment. Our stratagems are so meh compared to the newer codices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5013272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Well, you can use some of those juicy CPs to buy more Relics, too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5013273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrkul Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 I feel i can find a use hellfire shells (and to some extent flakk missles) almost every turn in most games. Being able to have some on demand mortal wounds out side of psycic phase is useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5013283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyterran Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Other than strike from the shadows, nothing really worth building an army around. UM might get good mileage out of the Predator strategem with Chronus and Guilliman, other than that... eh? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5013302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Hellfire shells sound like a good idea. Hellfire, Relics, a Chapter Master upgrade and SftS? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5013305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyNidus Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 been looking through our stratagems and they are abyssmal. i think you've pretty much covered the most useful ones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5013418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 Oh yes I love hellfire shells! Unfortunately I found out that even if I field a whole HB dev squad. Only one guy remembers to pack them. :( Thanks for the input so seems to be most rely on particular units. Most of which I dont have or field in my RG lists. Relics should be another topic in itself. I need to review them again, however I usually just default to the fancy 2+/3++ armour as similarly everything else seems eh... BTW I didnt intend for this to be a downer thread. I was just questioning my interpretation and understanding of the codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5013456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordova Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 For me, in an age of what seems to be permanently regenerating CPs for some, I find that having the Brigade to just give a series of rerolls is incredibly helpful. Plus, for Raven Guard, StfS can help with deployment - even if you use it to put down something in your own deployment zone, you're letting your opponent play their cards first. I don't always use it for alpha strike etc - forcing your opponent to reveal placement etc can be just as useful, even if it means you burn some CP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5013460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 I mostly use fight again and death with Relic Castallen and Champion. Honestly the best C:SM Strategems are by and large (Chapter) ones. Black Templars Strategem is for example one of the best deny abilities in game (alongside the various other 4+ Deny abilities). Ravengaurd is a known quality. Your Chapter Strategems are where you are most worthwhile for looking at spending CP in general. Then a couple incidental Strategem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5013481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinaryGuardsman Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I've recently got good value from Death to Traitors by comboing it with the Champion of Humanity warlord trait and the Teeth of Terra. You get d3 bonus attacks with the teeth, bonus attacks on 6+ vs chaos marines, bonus attacks on 5+ vs chaos marine characters, +1 to hit and +1 wound rolls vs all characters. If you face chaos consider dumping the teeth of terra on a character and activating Death to Traitors. Your dmg output is pretty good. You can even consider using Honour The Chapter. Like most of the C:SM stratagems.. this one is situational and not that strong. It just a solid B when a good opportunity to use it pops out. Best value for stratagems for marines... 1. Rerolls Sadly this is by far the best marine stratagem. Use it on damage rolls, critical failed saves,a bad vehicle explosion roll, maybe an important advance roll. 2. Relics Always buy 1 extra and maybe even consider 2 if your list has important characters. All marine lists should have the teeth of terra imo. This thing is terrific vs hordes and characters and costs 0 points. 3. Chapter Master If you dont have Shrike/Gulliman/Calgar(LOL?) just make your own CM. Full rerolls is substantially better than rerolls 1s. 4. Hellfire/Flakk Missile These go great on dev squads used in conjunction with signum and CM rerolls. Very few among us can fail 2+ rerollables consistently! These two stratagems are going to be a good answer to Custodes bikers. They fly but dont have -1 to hit. So every turn that they arent carving you up in CC they should be eating both Hellfire and Flakk. 5. Armour of Contempt Dont like Smite spam? Have your vehicles tank it with this! The beardiest version of this is an Iron Hands venerable dread with Psychic Fortress and Armour of Contempt. That gives you a 6+,6+,5+,4+ vs smite. That is a really mediocre list of stratagems! I'd gladly trade all of it for Veterans of the Long War. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5013861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 3. Chapter Master If you dont have Shrike/Gulliman/Calgar(LOL?) just make your own CM. Full rerolls is substantially better than rerolls 1s. ...this slight will be avenged, brother. Aside of your offending omission, I agree completely...for better or worse, taking that last point to mind By the by, when did Shrike get promoted? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5013885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
momerathe Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Notably, Hellfire/Flak is unavailable to people trying to do a Primaris army. By the by, when did Shrike get promoted? Previous chapter master got offed near the end of 7e, fighting the Tau. Because two whole chapters have to behave like idiots in order to make them look good :/. Well, that's what happens if you don't have a model, I guess.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5014008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinaryGuardsman Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 3. Chapter Master If you dont have Shrike/Gulliman/Calgar(LOL?) just make your own CM. Full rerolls is substantially better than rerolls 1s. ...this slight will be avenged, brother. Aside of your offending omission, I agree completely...for better or worse, taking that last point to mind By the by, when did Shrike get promoted? That was more of a slight against GW. Who is going to take Calgar with Guilliman available? Just seems silly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5014034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Besides the classic re-roll and Hellfire/Flakk (if you have MLs that is) there's not a great deal to spend them on. Having a character fight one last time is useful in big rucks especially, so is one to consider for the right moment. I agree that loading up on Relics is probably the better use of some points, as you tend not to be short of characters to use them and they'd be able to make a bigger impact for it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5014049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I'll toss in that the majority of my CPs go towards Command Reroll, Machine Empathy, and occasionally Counter Attack. I've used Hellfire Shells and Tremor Shells sparingly. I think I used Armor of Contempt once too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5014059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ipsen Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I run ven dreads with my backline. Wisdom of the ancients gets popped every turn they are still alive. Can't remember the last time they missed a shot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5014094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 By the by, when did Shrike get promoted? I believe it was shadowsun who did it, she offed the previous chapter master. To his credit, it did take her hijacking a ghostkeel to do it so at least he didn't go down easy (and in fact, i believe shrike was about 5 seconds from tearing her even with the ghostkeel apart). Somewhat mixed about Shrikes promotion really, takes away his ability to be the "peoples champion" as now he can no longer just take a strike team and run around anymore. As for stratagems, I found that the ultramarine trait is stupid good however the stratagem isn't great (because tacticals suck really) however in other cases they have some decent ones: the fight again for your melee blender unit if the target is a little tougher than one would like. Hellfire Shells are nice for just plinking a few wounds off bigger targets (and I agree about how it sucks you can have an entire HB dev squad fire them. Would be awesome if there was a squad version of it). Other than that though, just bring CP for re-rolls. SM stratagems are largely unimpressive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5014241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 3. Chapter Master If you dont have Shrike/Gulliman/Calgar(LOL?) just make your own CM. Full rerolls is substantially better than rerolls 1s. ...this slight will be avenged, brother. Aside of your offending omission, I agree completely...for better or worse, taking that last point to mind By the by, when did Shrike get promoted? That was more of a slight against GW. Who is going to take Calgar with Guilliman available? Just seems silly. I was referring to your omission of Helbrecht, heretic :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5014311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinaryGuardsman Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 3. Chapter Master If you dont have Shrike/Gulliman/Calgar(LOL?) just make your own CM. Full rerolls is substantially better than rerolls 1s. ...this slight will be avenged, brother. Aside of your offending omission, I agree completely...for better or worse, taking that last point to mind By the by, when did Shrike get promoted? That was more of a slight against GW. Who is going to take Calgar with Guilliman available? Just seems silly. I was referring to your omission of Helbrecht, heretic Oh... the other Marines in black armor. I left out Kantor also. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5014410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I feel the urge, the urge to PURGE! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5014435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 For relics, Teeth of Terra turns a simple Lieutenant into a killer, Standard Ascendant is solid if you take an Ancient in your list, and Shield Eternal seems more useful in general than the Armor. And it's only now that I look at the list that I realize just how few our options are. Yeesh... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5014465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCE1981 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 On the topic of Relics - the Ultramarine and Black Templar Relics are switched. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5015087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 ....beside wanting a NonCP Deny (to be clear I’d love. Honestly the Helm having that be swell or our Warlord Trait being that). But as a Templar? I never want to switch our Relic with Ultras. The Helm is simply the best Relic in the codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5015323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ed Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 On the topic of Relics - the Ultramarine and Black Templar Relics are switched. I've always thought that too. A halo that denied the witch through force of will while turning aside the enemy blades? Templar A helmet that increases the command and control capability of the officer wearing it? Ultramarine I'm convinced it was a typo and they just stuck with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344522-csm-stratagems/#findComment-5015361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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