The limits of Grimdark, Grimderp, and Suspending Disbelief

[MrDarth151]

So, even if I wish that there was more focus on logistics, consistency and realism, I understand that GW and BL should cater to all consumers.

 

Eh, I don't think it's that difficult at all. Most of those problems could be solved by altering very little.

 

For example, I thought first chapter of Master of Mankind undermined the idea of The Emperor being competent ruler, and His point in chapter two.

 

All that was needed to be done was literally removal of one paragraph.

 

We live in an era of internet and unprecedented ability to contact people and find research material. And most of this stuff, military documents, philosophy dealing with authoritarianism, and so on, and so on, are readily available on the web, free of charge. 

 

Complete realism requires lots of time and research. Avoiding clear logical errors and contradictions really doesn't.

[Wargamer]

 

So, even if I wish that there was more focus on logistics, consistency and realism, I understand that GW and BL should cater to all consumers.

 

Eh, I don't think it's that difficult at all. Most of those problems could be solved by altering very little.

 

For example, I thought first chapter of Master of Mankind undermined the idea of The Emperor being competent ruler, and His point in chapter two.

 

All that was needed to be done was literally removal of one paragraph.

 

We live in an era of internet and unprecedented ability to contact people and find research material. And most of this stuff, military documents, philosophy dealing with authoritarianism, and so on, and so on, are readily available on the web, free of charge. 

 

Complete realism requires lots of time and research. Avoiding clear logical errors and contradictions really doesn't.

 

What was it that made him appear incompetent, in your opinion? I read that book recently and nothing gave me that impression - beyond the "this wouldn't have happened if you just told Magnus what you were doing" stuff.

[MrDarth151]

 

 

So, even if I wish that there was more focus on logistics, consistency and realism, I understand that GW and BL should cater to all consumers.

 

Eh, I don't think it's that difficult at all. Most of those problems could be solved by altering very little.

 

For example, I thought first chapter of Master of Mankind undermined the idea of The Emperor being competent ruler, and His point in chapter two.

 

All that was needed to be done was literally removal of one paragraph.

 

We live in an era of internet and unprecedented ability to contact people and find research material. And most of this stuff, military documents, philosophy dealing with authoritarianism, and so on, and so on, are readily available on the web, free of charge. 

 

Complete realism requires lots of time and research. Avoiding clear logical errors and contradictions really doesn't.

 

What was it that made him appear incompetent, in your opinion? I read that book recently and nothing gave me that impression - beyond the "this wouldn't have happened if you just told Magnus what you were doing" stuff.

 

 

The scene with Valdor in the first chapter, when he goes into Koja Zu's crimes, and declares all but one meaningless.

 

See, here's a thing: The Emperor has access to numerous forces that can eliminate his enemies, both covert and overt ones. Zu should have been eliminated the moment he realised something was amiss with her. Leaving her in power and in position to commit future crimes is just about textbook example of how to not be a tyrant.

 

What I found to be of more note was a blanket dismissal of other crimes of Koja Zu. This would not be so problematic, if not for the follow up: A chapter in which Emperor stresses out the importance of law and lawgivers. A person how gives that much important to the law cannot dismiss crimes so easily, because if the law is not upheld, it is meaningless. 

 

From there, we arrive at following syllogism:

 

A) A brilliant tyrannical ruler does not make mistakes like that.

The Emperor makes those mistake.

 

Therefore C) The Emperor is not brilliant.

 

And that is a problem, because emotional core of the book relies on Him being brilliant. His plan requires transcendental skill, such that when hears of the scope of it, his first thoughts are of hubris.

 

If the Emperor is not brilliant, then the book holds no investment for me, because because His plan was not doable in the first, and there is no emotional value to it being destroyed.

 

So yeah. Things interconnect. Little things like that are often what makes or kills a given book for me.

 

On the other hand, I am not representative of 40k readership. At all. I don't expect writers to cater to my tastes.

 

Even if it would be nice.

[DarKnight]

I'll start my post stating I'm not trying to change Mr Darth's opinion & that I enjoy the hell out of this thread and all the participation from some of my favorite Bolter & Chainsword posters, now down to business. I've seen since its release date a lot of people have the issue that Mr Darth has with Master of Mankind, specifically that the Emperor allows a relatively corrupt ruler like Zu retain a vast amount of authority on post Unification Terra, but chooses to kill her over potable water. I think this has a lot to do with part of the reason that this thread was made and the tweets mentioned earlier made by ADB and Gav Thorpe as to what the Imperium was at its zenith and what it is now near its end. The Emperor is indeed the ruler of Earth but it's probably more accurate to think of him as the foremost warlord. All the other major powers in opposition to Him have been either executed due to warp taint, use of AI and/or other technological blasphemies, or obstinacy, or bent the knee and were absorbed into the fledgling Imperium. Others who may have had access to important tech etc. because part of the Imperium via pact and non agrression treaties or what have you. Needless to say not everyone originally in opposition to the Emperor died during unification for many reasons, expediency being a main one. The warp storms isolating Terra finally ceased and the Great Crusade had to begin. I'm sure there was a long list of unfit pre-Imperial warlords that were brought into the fold then quietly taken care of once their resources were integrated into the wider human empire. As far as the crimes Valdor dismisses as never being a threat to Imperial Unity, "Your cleansing progroms. Your trade in forbidden flesh.The army of gene-worked detritus you have sequestered in the bunkers beneath the Jermanic Steppes." As far as pre-Imperial warlords go this seems like light stuff. Like Valdor said, "The prospect of your rebellion was never a threat to Pax Imperialis." Petty wars between rivals occur all the time between Rogue Traders, navigator houses etc. into 40K. But stealing the last bit of water from Terra affects everyone on the planet. I'd argue that crime is many, many times greater. Not to mention her son is the Custodian who eventually carries Drach'nyen into the Webway. Perhaps her execution is a ruse by the Emperor to steal her son? Anyway, I typed all that stuff you guys probably already know to say that the Imperium of Man isn't what we all think it is, even to the people living in it. The Emperor ruled through sheer will as much as he did through the threat a Legion would descend upon a planet and burn it to ashes. It's mentioned in Master of Mankind how incredibly arrogant and fantastic the idea of uniting mankind in whole against Chaos even is. And now much, much, much lesser men and women are riding that idea into annihilation.

[DarKnight]

As far as the wider Warhammer world and what's true to physics as applied to the IP, I think depending on the quality of the writer we pick and choose what to ignore. Dan Abnett wrote one of my favorite scenes of literature even in the Gaunt's Ghosts novel when after the squad infiltrates the Chaos planet, the rest of the crusade undertakes an assault to bring it back into Imperial hands. Just masterful writing, I felt like I was part of that assault. In an earlier Gaunt book, he has Gaunt kill a World Eater bezerker in melee combat, I think before he even got the power sword of Hieronimo Sondar. That completely divorced me from the proceedings and I had to take a break for a while lol. In 'Betrayer' Angron bears up the leg of a titan which I thought was pretty effin' awesome and made sense in universe to me, in one of the HH short stories featuring the Emperor's Children, Fulgrim is fighting a titan somewhere, post Istvaan V & does some weird thing with Chaos magic and all kinda mutated tendril things come out of it, which doesn't jibe with me as far as Fulgrim's predilections in combat even after being possessed. Ultimately I think the most important thing regarding immersion in universe and belief in all these fantastical possibilities is writer quality.

[Tarvek Val]

DarKnight, you make good points. I saw the issue in a similar light, although I'll admit I did feel a tiny bit of pity towards Zu. Everyone needs water to survive, and one could argue that she was just trying to ensure the survival of her people, first and foremost (which, granted, is a hard case to make, given the experimentation her nation indulged in). As you said, all the major warlords, priest-kings, and witches who opposed the Emperor were eradicated, largely through the use of the Thunder Warriors. You said as follow: "Not to mention her son is the Custodian who eventually carries Drach'nyen into the Webway. Perhaps her execution is a ruse by the Emperor to steal her son?" This was no coincidence. "Ra, named in honor of an ancient sun god... became the leader of Squad Dynastes. Dubbed The Lords of Terra by the Emperor, the squad was composed of twenty sons and nephews taken as tributes from defeated Terran rulers and warlords." (source: Lexicanum and Master of Mankind​). This squad included as named members Mycorian (deceased), Gathas (deceased), Juhaza, Solon, and Jodarian. I found this a particularly sombre and dark moment in the Horus Heresy series; the Emperor ordered the murder of the direct relatives of children (Ra was 4 at the time of his mother's death), and then made them into his own bodyguards. Master of Mankind really made me rethink my opinion of the Emperor based upon what I knew of him previously, especially when I thought back on the conversations he had with various primarchs over the course of the HH series. He was a complicated being, to say the least.

[Wargamer]

Honestly, I think that scene was brilliant. It sent a message that must have been chilling to receive - that all your schemes and ambitions are so beneath the Emperor, so insignificant, that it's not even worth the effort to kill you.

 

It also displays wisdom in that the Emperor is trying to keep power structures intact. Vacuums create unrest, infighting and further war. This is reflected in the Imperium of 40k as well - the Administratum don't care how monstrous you are, so long as the tithe is paid and nobody is worshipping Chaos.

[Huggtand]

Excellent posts DarKnight and Wargamer, and I can only say that I agree with your points.

 

I have always had the view that the Imperium broadly operated as the Roman Empire. The local provinces are self govemented with their own legal systems and cultures and the roman law imposed on top of that is mostly concerned with the collection of taxes and other tithes and the stability of the Empire. So long as, you as a governor (or unification warlord), paid your taxes to the Empire and not threaten the stability of the Empire you can be as corrupt you want.

 

That's why the custodies only steps in when Zu crosses the line siphoning the water from Terra.

[Tarvek Val]

Truth be told though, I just can't figure out why the Emperor allowed Babu Dhakal to survive after the Unification Wars.

 

For those who don't know/remember, Babu Dhaka was one of the original Thunder Warriors who went by the name "Arik Taranis". He was believed to have been killed after raising the Banner of Lightning after the battle of Mount Ararat. He survived somehow, and escaped to the Petitioner's City, where he became the head of a ruthless gang.

 

After all, he was around from the very birth of the Imperium, and he probably know a lot more about the Emperor and his plans than anyone else at the time of the Unification Wars... It seemed odd to me that the Emperor, who made a point of destroying every warlord, psyker, and zealot who could have posed any threat at all to his rule of Terra, would have let some of his most dangerous and flawed warriors disappear at the moment of his greatest triumph. I mean, comparing Babu Dhaka and Zu is laughable. One is a spoiled aristocrat who drained an ocean and did some science experiments, and one is a ruthless, gene-forged killing machine who will do anything to survive and has good reason to detest the Imperium that cast him and his comrades aside... I just always found that aspect of the Heresy peculiar, and I feel the same way about a certain captain of the Mournival escaping death on Isstvan III and coming back into the series. 

[mc warhammer]

did the emp let arik go? i don’t remember that but knowing all the TW were due to expire...i’m guessing there were bigger fish to fry. probably thought arik would end just dying

 

regardless, even if he did let him go on purpose, it’s had zero impact on the emp’s success. arik seems content to just try and survive rather than threaten the great crusade in any way

[Tarvek Val]

The text was never very clear on exactly how Arik escaped, I believe he was sorely injured at the Battle of Mount Ararat and the Imperial forces likely just left him for dead. It is implied in The Outcast Dead and a few other sporadic sources that Arik may not have been the only Thunder Warrior to survive past the end of the Unification Wars, though they really aren't a main focus of any text. 

 

I agree with you in that Arik doesn't seem to pose much of a threat in how he is portrayed in the Horus Heresy text, but his whole deal is that he wants to get a progenoid and use it to cure his genetic issues. If I were the Emperor, I really wouldn't want a genetically stable, potentially grudge-bearing Thunder Warrior camping right next to the Imperial palace. 

 

It's not even the idea that Arik could be a threat that bothers me, it's more the fact that the Emperor seems to have such problems with oversight. He goes to all the trouble of conquering an entire planet to start an intergalactic crusade and leaves potential enemies in his backyard, he delves into the warp and the webway and yet doesn't tell anyone what he's working on (which could have prevented the entire Heresy)... 

 

Then again though, that's what gives him character and a story. He's powerful, wise, and incredibly clever; and yet, he is prone to mistakes of oversight and arrogance. An interesting combination of traits to balance, to be sure.

[Huggtand]

I picture Arik and other thunder warriors that survived as a normal management problem from work 

 

Big E can't micromanage everything in the Empire if He wants anything done, so he has to delegate this project. In a big project like this there is always a risk that something not going as plan (some survivors) so you do a risk/cost analysis. The risk is that some TW do survive and the cost to eliminate the risk is to put X amount of manpower in searching them out. Mitigating the risk is also the fact that the TW are genetically built to "self terminate" after a time so the cost of survivors is just temporary and will solve itself. If one of the survivors caused havoc you of course have to put it down.

 

With those options I think that I would have made the same decisions. That Arik had the knowledge and resources to build a genetic lab rivaling the Emperors is something I don't think anyone would expect and the novel do a good job telling us how extraordinary this is.

 

And of course it makes for a really good story 

[bluntblade]

Honestly, I think that scene was brilliant. It sent a message that must have been chilling to receive - that all your schemes and ambitions are so beneath the Emperor, so insignificant, that it's not even worth the effort to kill you.

 

It also displays wisdom in that the Emperor is trying to keep power structures intact. Vacuums create unrest, infighting and further war. This is reflected in the Imperium of 40k as well - the Administratum don't care how monstrous you are, so long as the tithe is paid and nobody is worshipping Chaos.

I always read it as those deeds would have earned her a death sentence. Valdor's there to carry it out because of the water. It's a more personal execution.

[Tarvek Val]

Yes, of course. The Outcast Dead really was a fantastic read, I enjoyed the segments on Arik and I absolutely loved the portrayals of the Crusader Host members.

 

As time goes on though, I'm really starting to question the Emperor's idea of delegating 

 

First he chooses Horus as Warmaster, then he has the Ultramarines burn Monarchia and crush the spirits of the Word Bearers, he decides not to tell anyone *aka Magnus* about the webway project...

 

Sometimes, I think the Emperor is just trying to be a troll on purpose 

[Tarvek Val]

That's a really interesting thought, bluntblade. I never really thought of the execution that way, but it would totally make sense. The fact that the Custodians took her son and took him into their fold would also strike me as being vindictive; personal revenge of sorts. When Valdor spoke to Zu, one of the last things he said to her was something along the lines of "your son, he is of age to become one of us now." 

[bluntblade]

When the Paternova of the Navigators learns about something connected to the Webway Project, he orders it sabotaged fearing for his order's position. We have no idea just how long it would've taken to complete, and there are many factions within the Imperium that might have objected.

 

Just imagine how many mortal populations, scarred by psyker outbreaks, might have responded when informed that actually, that's the future of all humanity. Or the mainline Mechanicum upon learning that the species must rely on alien technology. The Emperor's only option is fraught with peril.

[Ascanius]

This has been a very interesting thread.

 

One thing I want to contribute, though, is that the original term applied to SF was "willing suspension of disbelief."

 

As others have observed, there are certain things you have to choose to accept when it comes to 40K. Some are there because they're part of the premise - psykers, Space Marines, power armour, Warp travel - and others are there because they seemed cool, and have been retroactively justified.

 

(For instance, just about every Horus Heresy story involving the first encounters between Space Marines and daemons mentions that it's easier to kill Warp-spawn with "the weapons of eternity", like swords and axes, than with bolt shells or lascannons.)

 

One of the things that, for me, must be accepted is the grim and fundamentally insane nature of the Imperium. It's as vital to the setting as the Warp or Space Marines.

 

Yes, it's "silly" that it's considered an achievement to muster 1 million Imperial Guard troops from the population of Terra over the course of a decade . . . but only if you judge by the standards of 20th century Earth. What do we have that the Imperium doesn't have, to make it possible to raise armies of millions from a much smaller population? Quite a few things, if you take the Imperium's values and actions on face value.

 

Their system of economic production is not rationalised by notions of efficiency or profit. They do not have the sort of industry where you can stop making and selling things like silk stockings in order to use that silk for parachutes, because consumer goods like that simply do not exist (or at least are certainly not produced on Terra).

 

They can't replace male factory workers with their previously stay-at-home wives so the men can be drafted to fight, because there's no such thing as a housewife in the Imperium - and there's no significant excess production capacity that can be trimmed back through rationing, because they're barely capable of supplying the needs of Terra's permanent and "visiting" population as it is.

 

They can't raise regiments of soldiers by having university students suspend their studies, because the only equivalent population to "students" are bonded servants of the Adeptus Terra or the Adeptus Mechanicus who would not be permitted to abandon their posts (and when you do see phenomena where people "walk off the job" to serve in other stories, like the Beast Arises, it's an expression of religious mania that produces barely-competent cannon fodder, not trained Imperial Guard).

 

There are layers of social privilege and religious fervour and bureaucratic inflexibility that cannot be cut through, because there's no such thing as "a sane person with common sense" to point out how all of these phenomena are getting in the way (or if there were, they'd be executed for heresy a dozen times over before they got to the point of being able to make their case to the people who theoretically have the power to change things).

 

Given all of that, raising 1 million trained Imperial Guard from a population of quadrillions doesn't seem that ridiculous. Those people are probably the bare minimum that could be spared from Terra's manufactorums and whatnot, and taking them out probably condemned even more of the underclass of the Throneworld to miserable deaths by privation.

 

The Imperium is not us - they don't have our values, they don't operate their society using the methods we do, and nothing we consider common sense would sound like anything other than heresy to the vast majority of them. That's why it's a rotting carcass, only sustaining itself by virtue of its immense size and calcified nature. You can't even have a revolution burn it away like a wildfire renewing the forest, because the System is just too big.

[Wargamer]

Actually, on the subject of the things the Emperor left dangling, our pal A-D-B had the Emperor himself explain, and I apologise in advance for butchering the explanation.

 

The future is like standing on the shore of Dover and trying to reach France. Before you can even begin there are a million things that could go wrong - the boat might not arrive, or might arrive but not be seaworthy. You might hit an unseen rock, or be attacked by pirates, or be blown off course. You might get halfway and see a different, better shoreline. There are so many things that could happen, but all you know for certain is that the shore you wished for is there in the distance.

 

Every choice the Emperor makes is his best guess on what will help him reach his goal, but even he can't forsee everything and his resources are not limitless. My impression is that he had a lot of very risky plates spinning at once, purely because playing safe would never have allowed his vision to come true.

[MrDarth151]

Yes, it's "silly" that it's considered an achievement to muster 1 million Imperial Guard troops from the population of Terra over the course of a decade . . . but only if you judge by the standards of 20th century Earth. What do we have that the Imperium doesn't have, to make it possible to raise armies of millions from a much smaller population? Quite a few things, if you take the Imperium's values and actions on face value.

 

Even judging by the standards of the universe, this an incredibly small amount.

 

Codex: Astra Militarum, page 8, 8th edition.

 

 

For a hive world such as Armageddon, caught in the throes of all consuming war, a draft of at least a hundred million men at arms, and several million armoured vehicles is typical - a tiny fraction of the total populace which numbers in the hundreds of billions. A far flung agri world may have a significantly lower military tribute - perhaps as few as five million men and cavalry - but this may be a significant proportion of the world's population.

 

And this is annual tithe.

 

So basically, Armageddon, which faces all of the problems you listed, plus having to deal with, in 41st millennium alone, with invasion by Daemon Primarch, and two biggest Waaaghs seen since The Beast, can still raise a thousand times the troops Terra can, while having ten thousand times less people. 

 

In case you think this is a new development: 6th edition, Core Rulebook, page 141:

 

 

The provisioning of the Imperial Guard is provided by the Departmento Munitorum, the munitions and supply wing of the Administratum. Even this colossal organisation has no real idea of exactly how many troops are under arms, as the numbers are too vast and variable; even before considering the continuous toll of casualties, the influx of recruits can run into many billions each day.

 

That source is six years old now.

 

 

The Imperium is not us - they don't have our values, they don't operate their society using the methods we do, and nothing we consider common sense would sound like anything other than heresy to the vast majority of them. That's why it's a rotting carcass, only sustaining itself by virtue of its immense size and calcified nature. You can't even have a revolution burn it away like a wildfire renewing the forest, because the System is just too big.

 

And disagree that is a proper Grimdark.

 

You know what I find a proper Grimdark? Instead of "Imperium is so ingrained on its own way of doing things that it cannot even notice it's acting stupidly" I vastly prefer "Imperium does genuinely best or better than the greatest minds we know of, and it isn't enough".

 

I find the latter to be far more narratively compelling and realistic. And you know, not provoking the reaction of "I'm smarter than all those people" when reading a novel.

[mc warhammer]

The Imperium is not us - they don't have our values, they don't operate their society using the methods we do, and nothing we consider common sense would sound like anything other than heresy to the vast majority of them.

 

with fiction, i like to immerse myself in a new viewpoint, a way of thinking that's a bit different or even totally bizarre to my own. that's one of the reasons i'm so drawn to 40k as a setting. but i know that a lot of people engage fiction in the hopes of having themselves reflected back and to have their own set of beliefs reinforced through the work.

 

 

Yes, it's "silly" that it's considered an achievement to muster 1 million Imperial Guard troops from the population of Terra over the course of a decade . . . but only if you judge by the standards of 20th century Earth.

 

going back to my example back at uni: people scoffed at how "silly" the aztec warfare appeared to be (trying to capture the enemy alive rather than outright kill him etc). doesn't make sense from our conception of warfare.

 

but beyond that, dystopias are generally thematic. there are plenty of articles and papers to prove that if the vast majority of fictional dystopias were ever to come to pass, they would collapse incredibly quickly. dystopia doesn't work with irl logic and social dynamics, it's true purpose is  thematic.

 

and even though 40k has moved away from its satirical roots, one thing that i think has carried over from that foundation, is that the stories are about how not to do things. we aren't meant to agree. and that's something most satire highlights; this stuff is bad for us.

 

the imperium cuts off its own nose to spite its face. don't be the imperium

[mc warhammer]

You know what I find a proper Grimdark? Instead of "Imperium is so ingrained on its own way of doing things that it cannot even notice it's acting stupidly" I vastly prefer "Imperium does genuinely best or better than the greatest minds we know of, and it isn't enough".

 

 

that's a compelling theme, and also a far more common one. you'll find it in a lot of modern day heroic fiction, especially from hollywood and the usa in general.

[mc warhammer]

it actually occurred to me...i don't have a solid definition of "grimdark". for those who might be interested in what's on wikipedia:

 

Grimdark is a subgenre or a way to describe the tone, style or setting of speculative fiction that is particularly dystopian, amoral or violent. The word was inspired by the tagline of the tabletop strategy game Warhammer 40,000: "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.”

 

Several attempts to define "grimdark" have been made:

•     Adam Roberts described it as fiction "where nobody is honourable and Might is Right", and as "the standard way of referring to fantasies that turn their backs on the more uplifting, Pre-Raphaelite visions of idealized medievaliana, and instead stress how nasty, brutish, short and, er, dark life back then 'really' was". But he noted that grimdark has little to do with re-imagining an actual historic reality and more with conveying the sense that our own world is a "cynical, disillusioned, ultraviolent place".
•     Genevieve Valentine called grimdark a "shorthand for a subgenre of fantasy fiction that claims to trade on the psychology of those sword-toting heroes, and the dark realism behind all those kingdom politics".
•     In the view of Jared Shurin, grimdark fantasy has three key components: a grim and dark tone, a sense of realism (for example, monarchs are useless and heroes are flawed), and the agency of the protagonists: whereas in high fantasy everything is predestined and the tension revolves around how the heroes defeat the Dark Lord, grimdark is "fantasy protestantism": characters have to choose between good and evil, and are "just as lost as we are".
•      Liz Bourke considered grimdark's defining characteristic to be "a retreat into the valorisation of darkness for darkness's sake, into a kind of nihilism that portrays right action ... as either impossible or futile". This, according to her, has the effect of absolving the protagonists as well as the reader from moral responsibility.

Whether grimdark is a genre in its own right or an unhelpful label has also been discussed. Valentine noted that while some writers have embraced the term, others see it as "a dismissive term for fantasy that's dismantling tropes, a stamp unfairly applied."

[Wargamer]

If I was to define Grimdark, I guess it'd be a setting without hope. GrimDerp, on the other hand, is a setting without a point.

 

Again, to use Master of Mankind (I swear I don't just use it to fish likes from the author),it has a great example of Grimdark at the very end - when the Webway of Mankind falls. With that, you get the sense that the Imperium as the Emperor envisioned it is gone forever. It's not that Mankind is doomed to extinction or that Chaos is destined to win; it's that the bright, shining future we always dream of can never be achieved.

 

The Imperium is Grimdark because it's the kind of nightmare situation we would normally assume to be the end goal of an evil supervillain, yet instead has become the end goal of the "good guys" instead.

 

Yet as terrible as it is, it works. It's when the Imperium is painted as doomed to death and is just delaying extinction that tips us into GrimDerp.

[Ascanius]

 

You know what I find a proper Grimdark? Instead of "Imperium is so ingrained on its own way of doing things that it cannot even notice it's acting stupidly" I vastly prefer "Imperium does genuinely best or better than the greatest minds we know of, and it isn't enough".

 

I wouldn't like to see this, personally, because that justifies all the horrors of the Imperium as genuinely necessary in order for humanity to survive - and I think that an important part of the 40K universe is that they believe this is so, but it isn't necessarily the case.

[bluntblade]

I see that as a demarcating line between 30K and 40K. 30K is the act of reconstruction, enlightenment rising and promise beckoning. 40K is what happened after it all went wrong.