Help me renew my zeal!

[Marshal van Trapp]

I am in danger of falling my brothers! After watching all of my fellow marines crushing armies with their ultra marines and dark angels I have begun considering repainting my crusades' lovely armor to a more generic scheme and *gasp* using them as regular marines!

 

I need your help my brothers, convince me not to renounce my vows as a crusader and go down a dark path of chapter abandonment!

 

((In all seriousness I have been having a lot of trouble trying to play my Templars as I once did, and they were intended, as a melee force. I don't want to go with an all shooty templar force, it just seems wrong. Is there anything I can do to make my army work or am I doomed to fail?))

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Sadly, we do shooty rather well too. I recently had a good amount of success with a Templar firing line around a Marshal with Helm, it's a big re-roll bubble to work with.

 

Consider this as well, we are not just a close combat army, we are known for our mounted cavalry role. I.e. tanks. Many tanks.

[Hawklynn]

Make an armored spearhead and roll over the heretics.

[Marshal van Trapp]

See I've been considering going back to the old armored Calvary style army I used to play but I don't have the rhinos anymore so I'd have to get new ones.

 

As far as armored spearheads the only real battle tanks I have are 2 LRC which are good but not amazing and lack a lot of the anti tank of a proper LR or other battle tanks.

[Hawklynn]

What does your primary list look like right now?

[Marshal van Trapp]

This is my current 1500pt list

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [90 PL, 1500pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Black Templars

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [5 PL, 79pts]: Bolt pistol, Power axe

 

Chaplain [5 PL, 72pts]: Bolt pistol, The Crusader's Helm

 

The Emperor's Champion [4 PL, 75pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Crusader Squad [12 PL, 226pts]: 5x Neophyte w/Combat Knife

. 7x Initiate w/Chainsword

. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Power fist

. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

. Sword Brother: Bolt pistol, Power fist

 

Crusader Squad [12 PL, 226pts]: 5x Neophyte w/Combat Knife

. 7x Initiate w/Chainsword

. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Power fist

. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

. Sword Brother: Bolt pistol, Power fist

 

Crusader Squad [12 PL, 201pts]: 4x Neophyte w/Combat Knife

. 7x Initiate w/Chainsword

. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Power axe

. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

. Sword Brother: Bolt pistol, Power axe

 

Crusader Squad [12 PL, 199pts]: 4x Neophyte w/Combat Knife

. 7x Initiate w/Chainsword

. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Power sword

. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

. Sword Brother: Bolt pistol, Power sword

 

+ Elites +

 

Terminator Squad [12 PL, 242pts]

. Terminator Sergeant: Power sword, Storm bolter

. 3x Terminator w/CF: 3x Chainfist, 3x Storm bolter

. Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 90pts]: Jump Pack

. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Chainsword

. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Chainsword

. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Chainsword

. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Chainsword

. Veteran Sergeant: 2x Chainsword

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 90pts]: Jump Pack

. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Chainsword

. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Chainsword

. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Chainsword

. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Chainsword

. Veteran Sergeant: 2x Chainsword

 

++ Total: [90 PL, 1500pts] ++

 

Although I'm no longer sold on those vanguard, they have been very hit or miss

[tvih]

You could always just play as another chapter without repainting too. Most people shouldn't have a problem with that as long as things are otherwise WYSIWYG.

 

I'm curious about your Vanguard though, why 2x chainsword? You don't get any extra attacks from having a second one as far as I know, with a pistol you'd at least get to shoot as well.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

You must get hammered by tanks. You have no ranged anti-tank weapons!

[arigatous]

 

You don't get any extra attacks from having a second one 

 

Yes you do get an extra attack from each chainsword. That's was clarified in either FAQ or designer's commentary.

[Schlitzaf]

First suggestion; Cenos only 6 Points, the main thing you may give up is Firstblood. So yeah Cenos. Always take Cenos, they can be objective campers, moral immune for your tide Squads, and more.

 

Second, Equal Ini/Neo Ratio. Always. Or one maybe two more Init’s than Neo’s.

 

Flow Chart for Crusader Squad Saves

1) No rend or -2 Rend on Init’s

2) -1 Rend on Neo’s

3) -3 Rend preference, I prefer removing the Neo. You should take on Init, but I like keeping 3+ around.

 

No Power Fist on Crusaders. PowSword are fine because they increase raw damage by a equivalent of 1/3 of a Marine compared to a ChainBro. Power Fists are basically the about one sixth worse than two ChainBros. Simply put Crusader’s don’t have attack needed for PowWeapons.

 

Vangaurd and Black Templars; A Crusader Squad Point for Point (assuming equal Init/Neo) does Equivalents Points Worth of Attacks to ChainVangaurd. If you run Vangaurd, as Templars toy them up otherwise take more Crusader Squads. If you don’t toy them up and want jump packing units. Take Assault Marines. 2 Points cheaper, so a 5 Man Squad of Assault Marine with some finagling elsewhere could take DoublePlasma Pistol. They are Bully Units or Units running flanks so you aren’t flanked.

 

Finally, get a Vangaurd Detachment, with your current setup you have 3rd HQ and more than three elites.

 

List Specific Things;

I see 4 Tide Squads. You have given questionable upgrades, and have taken too many Inits. The list specific issue is that you are throwing 68 Marines on board. I run 44 Marines (+ Deep strikers) in my Tide at 2k.

 

Your tide is doing the classic Ork Blanket Strategy. But unlike Orks if we do that we cannot afford cheap support like Loota’s (318 Points of Gaurdsman, and get 6 Lascannons. Well worth price of admission. While 2 Devi Squads with TriLas is 290, they help give bodies to hold backrow).

 

So let’s look at that, first 3 Tide Squads, or 2 Tide Squads and 2 FireSupport (100ish Point Squads. Intercesssor great for this). Should be your tide’s foundation. Large enough, but small enough they can be deployed.

 

A Tide, needs a Castallen (Liutanent) and Marshall (Captain). A ChainBro has 2 Attacks at 13, hits 1.33 and wound 0.66 for reference. Let me explain, if you have 12 (6 ChainBro) Attacks. 8 Hit. Reroll half failed hits (2) attacks. Marshal means you have the damage output equivalent of 7 Inits. If you have 14, 11 Chain, 2 Pow, 1 Special. 23 Attacks, 15.32, Reroll half of misses, (3.88). Just under 2 additonal Bros.

 

Melee, 1.32 hits average per chainBro. 8 Hits. 4 wounds. Reroll 1/3. 1.32 additional. So a unit of 6 ChainBros, generates the equivalent of one more ChainBro worth of wounds. So a Marshall + Castallen with same squad, generates 3 more ChainBros per iteration of attacking, or worth roughly 36 Points. If you get to fight 4 times, those models earned their points before they even do anything.

 

So get a Castallen in your list. First and foremost. Second we are inclined to melee, that needn’t be all we are. You are a Space Marine, and a Black Templar. You need not go 5 Man MSU Gunline, by Fire Support. A 10 Man, 6-4 Squad with HeavyBolter/Plasma/Plasma, and 7 ChainBros. Running behind your Tide Squads is 160 Points or take Intercessors for 90-100ish depending on your preference. This is needed so you can keep the pressure and pop shot fragile elites before you engage. A Zerker Squad can be scary (for the record we can beat them with a tide squad), but if you catch a squad in the open, firefight support can cut them down. This leave counter charge units, in a position they cannot disembark or move into counter charge range early. Giving two rounds of combat before you need to deal.

 

Fight Phase is only 1 Phase of 5 (6 include charge) Phase Game. Ignoring shooting is ignoring 20% of the game, when we start ignoring one phase (physic phase) already. By ignoring both, you are only playing half the battle.

 

Let me iterate, I am not saying become Gunline, I am saying as a Marine, Templars can also shoot our guns. I run flame weapons for that reason in my Crusader so I can advance still shoot. I’d think of going to 2-3 Tides and get Fire Support Crusader Squads or some Intercessors.

 

Terminators; I’d turn them into Reivars and mass drop them alongside your ASM/Interceptors/Vangaurd. Or play around with Points and get two Dreadnoughts. That squad is too fragile and not large impact unless drop into cover and then your chainfists are sad.

 

Finally about esteem? The best advice I have, the game is hard. Every strategy has a counter, every counter strategy has an Achilles Heel. Sometimes the dice are with you, others they abandoned you. And nothing ever survives the point of contact with the enemy.

 

If you want to melee, your a Black Templar, back in the day, we had a rule called No Pity! No Remorse! No Pity! It gave us fearless in close combat. We never fell back. We held our ground and did not falter brother. And my advice to you? If you find yourself faltering, did Sigismund even as he walked to duel Abbadon, one last time. Did he falter?

 

Grimaldus, declared that we dug his grave at Helsreach and he’d triumph or die. And then with his fellow Astartes and Scions of Dorn, he refused to let them give in and go to their end. He mustered all of Helsreach and lent them his sword.

 

Helbrect when fighting the Stormlord, falter and waver, as his enemy took blow after blow. No he persisted Brother. He endured. And then returned to seek vengeance by destroying the Xeno’s Capitol Ship. Almerich who saw his brothers perish on Cadia as they made their way to Macragge. Ever throw in the the towel?

 

As he laid Bloodied before Skarbrand, did he resign to his fate? An act that would have disgraced Sigismund and our entire chapter. He took the Black Sword and ran Skarbrand threw. Giving Gulliman the opening to finish the job. Brother, if it was easy, anyone could do it. If anyone on this formun, had a full proof strategy how to melee and win. We likely wouldn’t be in this situation, and folks be complaining how overpowered our army is. Even the lists at IVO, like the BA Intercessor one, have failings.

 

But what matters, is not that you failed, is that strive to stand up and try again. If you go Blue, you’d be missed. Every time you lose, ask yourself, did you lose or did your opponent win? If they won, did they shoot or out general, or did Lady Luck grant them her blessing. But most importantly, never just throw in the towel. You are facing the eternal riddle of melee armies and 40k, and their is no good or well obvious answer. If it was you didn’t be asking.

 

But there is an answer, and it can be found. Just don’t give up.

[arigatous]

Sadly repainting them won't do you any good.

 

Scouts with knives are worthless.

You can only use marines with chainswords in assault squads which are pretty worthless as well.

BT chapter tactics is unmatched for your deepstrike force.

And you will lose the Champion, who is pretty much the best SM named character by point value.

 

What you really need here instead of repainting is to drop one troop choice and all the expensive power weapons to get a DISTRACTION CARNIFEX instead.

 

P.S. And take cenobyte servitors, of course. That's the best unit in the whole Codex for the points.

Edited February 19, 2018 by arigatous

[Firepower]

We have a hard time playing as a melee force now because we don't have melee force rules.  Our gifts from the codex begin and end at re-rolling charge distance.  Stabby Crusader squads pack very little punch, unfortunately, in a large part due to the melee rules of 8th edition mostly removing our old 'look at all my dice!' advantage, and crippling melee attrition by allowing units to safely stroll out of combat.  Aside from re-rolls from our glory days, weight of dice and attrition were pretty much always our one major shtick for winning a fist fight.  To be blunt, Crusaders won't be slaughtering their way through much of anything.  

 

There are characters that can buff Crusaders, of course.  Helbrecht is a major buff, Grimaldus is a good one, and you have Marshals and Castellans for useful but not critical ones.  The trouble is, would you rather buff an at-best-average squad to slightly above average, or apply that buff to an already strong squad like Vanguard, Dreadnoughts or Terminators?

 

In recent games, I continue to take my stabby Crusaders, but in the end all the heavy lifting is done by shooting from the LRC, Hunter Missiles, and stabbing/smashing from Ironclads, while the lads accomplish very little.  They're janitors, there to clean up squads that have already been practically nullified by shooting.

 

The one thing I'm currently looking at correcting is my choice for the heavy weapon Initiate.  One attack with a power weapon will amount to little at all.  Sticking a Grav Cannon on him, on the other hand, can do wonders whether the squad is stabby or shooty.  Then the problem becomes one of points.  From what I've seen, bringing bodies is extremely important in 8th.  The trouble there is that bringing a bunch of mediocre stabby bodies doesn't compete with bringing a bunch of shooty bodies (typically many more than we can bring regardless).  I've yet to really try a full on Tide, but from my experience one round of shooting from Guardsmen can wipe a 14 man Crusader squad off the map.

 

TL;DR: No, Crusader Squads are not good melee units anymore.  Leave the heavy lifting in melee to elite units (and deck them out for elite work, not with an extra Str 4 AP - attack).  That said, I'm the stubborn sort, and I'll keep on taking swords whether 8th edition likes it or not

 

Edit- As Arigatous points out, distraction units are crucial for slogging.  Pod in Dreadnoughts, slap down Shield Terminators, anything scary and durable and in your opponent's face turn one.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Firepower

[tvih]

 

 

You don't get any extra attacks from having a second one 

 

Yes you do get an extra attack from each chainsword. That's was clarified in either FAQ or designer's commentary.

 

 

That would still only be +1 attack for 2 swords instead of using only one sword though, correct? A pistol would allow that same attack, even when not already in close combat. Although admittedly you couldn't use a Chaplain to reroll that attack's to-hit roll. In the meanwhile you'd gain overwatch. Hm... well, I guess it's pretty much a wash. Granted, two chainswords can look pretty badass.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I don't understand the idea that Templar Initiates with boltguns aren't proper Templars.

 

Look at the Third Edition cover. Templars. Kicking. Arse. And not a single Chainsword in sight.

 

I was a bit loath to re-arrange my Crusade's initiates at first, my two centre piece squads are Chainsword heavy, not even a heavy weapon, but they only fight one way, and it's not working the way it used to.

 

That image however, it made me realise that the cool thing about Templars is that we can have the best of both worlds, we can choose to chop and stab, or stand and shoot. The Ultramarines can't do that. Nor can they pack as many cool guns into a 5 man squad as we can!

[Schlitzaf]

Fire, and honestly that is fine. If you have 3-4 Squads ones get wiped a turn, so? And secondly it’s important that you run a lot deep strikes. I easily run 10 sometimes 12. If you do Tide Squads they need support. Also honestly? Elite Units don’t need babysitting characters because they already have respectable damage output. You don’t need to increase that. Or they are Bully Units and what definition of their role don’t need it.

 

Also we didn’t lose attacks functionally. It’s just spread differently. As now we shoot pistols in close combat. Old Charge Rules, Pistol + 2 + Charge then second & third round 2 each. 8th Pistol + 2, 2nd Round 2, 3rd Round, Pistol + 2. Same attack’s just spread out differently. If your having trouble because enemy’s flees, and then shoot. Your either mistiming waves or not engage the battlefield, because you lack durable flankers or bullies.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Firepower]

How are you running 10-12 Deep Striking units? 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

He plays soup. A lot of his army isn't Space Marine, so the units are cheaper!

[Firepower]

He plays soup. A lot of his army isn't Space Marine, so the units are cheaper!

 

...nope, not starting that argument, too.  There's enough here to worry about already.  

 

Shooting pistols in melee doesn't make up for losing an attack on the charge.  One, it is an attack you lose when you charge, when you would normally have your chance to dwindle the enemy numbers before they strike back.  Secondly, you can't use it until the 3rd round of a combat, when your turn comes back around, after your opponent has already had a chance to use his pistols.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Firepower

[Schlitzaf]

1) My Deep Strikers/Forward

1x Castallen

2x Reivars

2x Rattling (90)

3x Scions (210)

2x Ponies (120)

Sometime 2x Deathriders (110)

 

If I wasn’t souping

Scions Become Inceptor (+75)

Ratts Double Scout (-20)

Ponies to 2x Reivars

 

So

Castallen

3-4x Reivars

1-2x Interceptor

2x Scouts

 

So 8 ‘Deep Strikes’. That is before I look at my 230ish points of Troops of Admech and Vostroyans

Which likely be an additional Reivar and Interceptor Squad, then a second Castallen. I play soup because I like it. My list would barely change if I didn’t soup. Like there is no reason Style of List I play can’t be done with Pure Marines. I just like my Vostroyans and idea of running 4 Reivars is silly to me

 

Answer your question Firepower, a lot of Reivars and Interceptors

 

Its 1000-1250 Marines, 600-750 IG, and 0-300 Admech

Edited February 19, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[JAG Templar]

I’m happy to share my thoughts/ experiences with the maintenance of enthusiasm for the game. Firstly, I’ve only been around since 7th edition so I don’t have the emotional connection with the 4th edition codex that others do. Secondly, I enjoy the lore/ Extented Universe and modelling/ painting sides of 40K much more than the table top game itself. I was drawn to Templars because of the way they look, and the idea of zealous Crusading knights in spaced appealled to me (little did I know that painting black to a high standard is actually very difficult!). I think tabards, skulls, knightly shields look better than the Roman legion styling of Ultramarines etc. and that’s a personal taste thing.

 

Game-wise I performed very well when the Indexes came out. I can’t remember losing a game during that phase. When the SM Codex was released I think I was obvious to most that Ultramarines + Guilly was a lot better than the other Chapters. My win percentage dropped to about 75 percent but I was happy enough. Post Chapter Approved (and a lot of codex releases) I sat at about 50/50 wins unless it’s IG or Eldar and then I’m looking more like 20 percent.

 

At my FLGS and my group of gaming friends it’s very common for people to change their guard regiment or Eldar Craftworld from game to game without much thought given to the colour scheme so the stigma of playing what you painted them as doesn’t really exist.

 

I resisted for a long time (a friend actually made the comment that he was amazed at how long I held out with pure Templar lists) but recently started playing my Templars as Ultramarines on the table top. It has been a revelation and really reinvigorated my enthusiasm for the game. The win ratio has come up (mainly due to Guilliman buffs) but that’s not too important for me. The army feels much easier and satisfying to play. It feels co-ordinated and synergetic.

 

For me I get the hobby look I want and the tactical simplicity I was seeking. It’s been stated above that playing Templars is hard. It really is and for some people that’s a challenge that gives them satisfaction. For me, I’m happy to have a simple game plan.

 

The one thing I miss is the Emperors Champion. He really is great value for points, and often underestimated by uneducated opponents (only once though!)

[tvih]

 

 

Shooting pistols in melee doesn't make up for losing an attack on the charge.  One, it is an attack you lose when you charge, when you would normally have your chance to dwindle the enemy numbers before they strike back.  Secondly, you can't use it until the 3rd round of a combat, when your turn comes back around, after your opponent has already had a chance to use his pistols.

Ah, true, since the in-melee shooting is done in shooting phase, you only get to do it on your own turn... still new to this 8th stuff. However you get to use it in the first turn too, since you shoot before charging. Also depending on the enemy, said enemy may just walk away from the combat on their own turn, meaning you don't necessarily get to swing that shiny extra sword on their turn anyway.

 

I still like my power weapons given their lowered cost especially on the mobile vanguard, but I suppose even if just for the coolness I could do some chainsword+PW combos. I had some "special melee weapon" combos such as LC+PF modeled for them for 6th/7th, but obviously that doesn't work anymore.

[Firepower]

 

 

 

Shooting pistols in melee doesn't make up for losing an attack on the charge.  One, it is an attack you lose when you charge, when you would normally have your chance to dwindle the enemy numbers before they strike back.  Secondly, you can't use it until the 3rd round of a combat, when your turn comes back around, after your opponent has already had a chance to use his pistols.

Ah, true, since the in-melee shooting is done in shooting phase, you only get to do it on your own turn... still new to this 8th stuff. However you get to use it in the first turn too, since you shoot before charging. 

 

You've always been able to shoot pistols before charging.  The one positive change in that regard is you don't have to charge the unit you shot at, and you can charge with Bolters (which effectively makes Bolter Crusaders paradoxically just as strong on the charge as stabby Crusaders).  Any way you look at it, the removal of an extra attack for having a pistol is a loss for the charging unit.  Even if you get to use a Sergeant's Plasma Pistol in melee, you have to endure 2 rounds of combat before you get to, and I'd rather have the extra Power Weapon attack on the turn I charge.

 

8th edition as a whole is not kind to assault, or rather, significantly kinder to shooting.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Firepower

[Brother Christopher]

You can repaint your Marines if you're bored with paintign black. Otherwise, if you're still interested in the gaming aspect of the game 40K, use whatever Chapter Tactics or Codex you suitable. Outside of the most rigorous tournament environment, I can't imagine anyone turning you down because your Ultramarines/Raven Guard/whatever look suspiciously like the Black Templars. Firstly, painted miniatures (even though in the 'wrong' colours) are better than grey plastic which hits tabletops too often. Secondly, there is no rule to dictate that a particular army has to be painted in a particular manner to claim that faction rules.

 

In truth, I feel that the Codex: Space Marines that we're in could easily have been called Codex: Ultramarines and the UM are 'the best' subfaction therein, mostly thanks to their great characters and their *scoff* Primarch. Apart from the added flexibility of Crusader Squads, which shine as small fire-support squads (and are bland in close combat) and the amazing Emperor's Champion, using the BT chapter tactics is a liability.

 

On a related note, how does Codex: Blood Angels compare to Codex: Ultramarines? From what I've browsed, BA rules could allow us to field a more punchy and 'proper' Black Templars list due to the more reliable close combat rules.

[tvih]

 

You've always been able to shoot pistols before charging.  The one positive change in that regard is you don't have to charge the unit you shot at, and you can charge with Bolters (which effectively makes Bolter Crusaders paradoxically just as strong on the charge as stabby Crusaders).  Any way you look at it, the removal of an extra attack for having a pistol is a loss for the charging unit.  Even if you get to use a Sergeant's Plasma Pistol in melee, you have to endure 2 rounds of combat before you get to, and I'd rather have the extra Power Weapon attack on the turn I charge.

 

8th edition as a whole is not kind to assault, or rather, significantly kinder to shooting.

 

Of course you've always been able to do it, but it is still quite relevant when comparing BP+CS to 2xCS and the unit's performance on the turn of the charge. Ain't gonna do no shooting prior to charging if you don't have a gun. And extra power weapon attack? A chainsword only gives an extra chainsword attack. Also no extra chainsword attack if you end up dying to overwatch like my guys seems keen to do all too often 

[SydonianDragoon404]

I plan to do exactly what Brother Cristopher mentioned, and I'm going to experiment with Blood Angel rules. In my eyes, the Death Company are just ruthless and zealous as we are, perhaps even more so, but also crazy. But hey, if that's giving me power to properly melt whatever unit an elite assault unit touches, I'll just say that those Templars with jetpack are extra, extra angry. 

 

Also, by taking a double battalion, one of Templars with Crusader Squads, and another of Blood Angels with scouts and their elite choppy stuff, if the Blood Angels bring a Librarian this effectively allows you to "double dip" on anti-psyker shenanigans. Do you really, really want to make sure that Rotigus doesn't regain D3 wounds? Or perhaps you want to be absolutely certain that those Chaos terminators won't be warptiming into you. Well fear not! Try to Abhor the Witch! If you don't roll that 4+, then you have another chance if your Blood Angel psyker is within range to deny. 

 

I'm going to wait until the FAQ in March comes out before I make any large purchases, but yeah, I'm definitely going to be experimenting with Blood Angel rules for that choppy goodness. Bring down Lemartes, and you get reroll charges anyway!