Help me renew my zeal!

[Honda]

How much ZEAL do you field?

[Marshal van Trapp]

So it seems the consensus is I'm trying to do too much melee, which is kinda saddening. I acknowledge that I need fire support (which I'm planning to fix with my new insessors and hellblasters) but it feels like my units are not doing enough in melee when they manage to get into melee.

 

It also seems like special weapons like powerfists/weapons are just not worth taking in crusader squads. If I'm going to use melee crusader squads should I just take all chainswords? I have more than enough chainbros to fill 3 full tide squads with neophytes.

 

As for elites, it seems that neither the terminators nor the vanguard (which I guessed) are particularly amazing, but I honestly don't know what I'd even replace them with.

 

Also I will be perfectly honest with you guys, a few weeks ago I played an all primaris army (basically just all the stuff from the DI box) and it performed better than my all bog standard marine list ever did. Although I'd say I only really used the chapter tactic twice (my deep striking inceptors did work that game) so I feel kinda mixed about using lots of shooting squads.

 

I Also have loads of other stuff besides what I listed including 3 dreads, the 2 LRCs, some assault terminators, all the DI primaris, and another set of 3 inceptors. I guess I should post over in the armylist section to get some suggestions.

[Marshal Laeroth]

Okay, so here it is.  I will have to second the notion that the current list the OP posted has some serious flaws.  The primary one is that it does not have support, nor a backfield presence.  Schlitzaf touched on some of the things that is important about that.  A lot of players don't like primaris, some do.  Nevertheless, you will often lose when your entire army rushes towards you opponent.  You need something else in your list for the mid-field/backfield part of the board.  Preferably from the troops slot.  Scouts, Primaris, or Crusader squads all fit that bill.  You don't have to build a shooty list to be successful.  Several BA marine players showed that at LVO and it wasn't because the BA are simply better at close combat than we are.  It was because they over-saturated the board with durable bodies that could actually make it there, while having something held back for the rest of the board.  They did it because there was enough threat running at them, that you couldn't concentrate on those less scary units. 

 

But there is a key component to the BA success, that is partially applicable to our lists:  Character support.  The BA live and breath through their characters and stratagems.  Without them, they stumble quickly.  The codex might look like a straight upgrade to Codex: SM, but it has a number of flaws.  The Death Company is admittedly, pretty cool.  But the rest of the codex is pretty much the same as ours, outside of our special characters and CT.  They do get the weight of dice that we used to get, plus a nice bonus to wound on the first turn of combat, and get additional durability/attacks via Black Rage.  With that being said, they are significantly more expensive and have only leadership 7.  By themselves, the DA aren't too terrible to deal with.  But they need Lemartes.  The BA need Ancients, Sanguinary Priests, and relics to surround their forces.  It is no different from what is required of our lists.  Close combat BT need character support as well.  The difference is that we have tactical adaptability via our Crusader squads.  They can literally do anything you need.

 

What does that bring me to?  First, you don't have to put your characters on units that already are "elite".  Why make an elite unit more elite?  You use your characters to enhance units that are average to bring them to above average status.  That means you need to utilize your auras and buffs.  Second, you don't need to be mechanized.  You just need to make sure you have enough bodies on the board to make it worthwhile.  Which leads into the third:  While bodies are well and good, they can't just charge mind-numbingly towards the enemy because you cannot react quick enough if they outmaneuver you.  Forth, you absolutely need to utilize our chapter tactics and deep strike.  You need to leverage that huge boon of ours.  Finally, don't leave yourself without a way to kill multi-wound models.

[Marshal van Trapp]

Honestly thanks guys, you've all helped to remind me exactly what it means to be a templar! To that end I believe we can call this /thread cause after all your kind words and suggestions the burning zeal within me is rekindled! To that end, I've posted a tweaked list over in the armylist forum if any of you would like to help me make it slightly more competitive!

[Honda]

It also seems like special weapons like powerfists/weapons are just not worth taking in crusader squads.

 

 

Not everyone agrees with this statement.

 

I would strongly recommend making incremental changes a few at a time so that you can review and see what the overall effect was. If you change lots of variables all at the same time then you can never really be sure what may have worked.

 

Marshal Laeroth has a battle barge worth of wisdom in his post. I would strongly suggest reading and absorbing his observations.

 

One other thing to keep in mind. Yes 40K isn't real, but all warfare adheres to certain principles. One of the key principles to always keep in mind is that of combined arms. A one dimensional threat can more easily be defeated by a multi-dimensional threat.

 

In simpler words, if all you have is a hammer, then the only way you can be effective is if all your challenges are nails.

 

You don't have to give up the CC capabilities in our codex. You will find them more effective if you have other threats that the opponent has to deal with.

 

One of the things that 8th features and has really emphasized is the old concept of "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts." Understanding how you accomplish this is really, really important. It will take some trial and error to get there. Part of that is because 8th is new, part of that is because you aren't like anyone else. You will have to arrive at your style.

 

Enjoy the journey.

[Othniel's Blade]

At the risk of sounding crazy, but I feel that I haven't seen anyone post this option: why not run bolter Neos with stabby Initiates? With the ability to charge after firing in 8e, you might end up with a more balanced squad, especially if you're running such a unit in the first place. Combat knives are worthless on Neos anyway, like Firepower stated re: double chainswords, you need to endure 2 rounds of melee before pistols are usable. At least your stabby squad would have some range too. Shotguns are obv equal within pistol range and their 6" bonus S, but at least you'd have some 24" capability with bolters. If that seems overly deficient, please let me know. I'm trying to figure out which to use myself.

 

Edit: glanced at the codex entry again, and Neos keep their BPs anyway so you keep that bonus attack in shooting phase. So my question would be why not take bolters over shotguns for range?

Edited February 20, 2018 by Othniel's Blade

[Schlitzaf]

We cannot do Bolters on Neo’s last I checked. And I do shotguns. So we can advance and shoot. Like first round plus second round sometimes, Crusader Squads should always be advancing. And just forgot to mention. You guys got everyone in base on the charge last Edition? I normally lose 5-6 guys*. Whom I remove as casualties anyways. So the charge attacks I lost are accounted for when my pistols get a chance to shoot again.

 

*Not literally persay. Just that is # of Models who cannot hit because dead or otherwise

Edited February 20, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Firepower]

Neophytes can take Bolters, Schlitz.

[Schlitzaf]

Then answer your question, Chains vs Bolters is difference of role. Chains are just generally preferable for Crusader Squads, because if charged (or you charge). While you get same net number of attacks on your turn. You also attack at +1 additional times over the enemy squad. And if choose fallback so to shoot. You lose all that rounds attack. Where staying engaged means you keep Melee and Pistol Attacks. If your squad in firefight range (7-12) often you prefer Chains unless you plan on Alpha’ing. Which tides don’t. Their job sit their and not die. With ChainBros picking away chaff and maybe Marine or two every turn. Then 3 PowSwords attacks bring home bacon

 

Also aside I must admit I never shot my pistols in prior. Because well....getting pulled out of charge range sucked. But now I can shoot a squad I don’t intend to charge. So I don’t getting pulled out of charge is rarer.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Margulix]

Footslogging Initiates and neophytes are... well average. They suffer because of losing +1a for pistol and +1a for charge. Unfortantely in this edition the CC is weaker than shooting... again.

 

But fear not, my brother! We have some strong points too!

 

Helbrecht in really good, Champion is awesome (just use a droppod or something to deliver him with some melee-elites and make a good use of charge rerolls).

 

Good armored fist is: LRC with Helbrecht, 5 (or 10) vets with hammers and sheilds, 10 (or 5) crusaders with 2 fists and melts. This squad will wreck faces with str 10 Hammers or fists and rerolls. Just be sure to keep this LRC safe and distract enemy anti-tank units.

 

Also consider an leviafan dreadnought. And a lucius droppod for him. This can scare your opponent even before the battle. 

 

Terminators can be okay too, they can kill a knight in one phase if lucky. 

 

Dreadnoughts, conteptors especially good. 

 

I really hate the price for droppods in this edition and the resriction on deep strike, because this is what stopping us templars deep-sriking everything on enemy and charging first turn with everything.

[Othniel's Blade]

We cannot do Bolters on Neo’s last I checked. And I do shotguns. So we can advance and shoot. Like first round plus second round sometimes, Crusader Squads should always be advancing. And just forgot to mention. You guys got everyone in base on the charge last Edition? I normally lose 5-6 guys*. Whom I remove as casualties anyways. So the charge attacks I lost are accounted for when my pistols get a chance to shoot again.

 

*Not literally persay. Just that is # of Models who cannot hit because dead or otherwise

 

Fair point. Though by the same rate, wouldn't bolter Neos be better off since they have objectively more targets available beyond the target charged unit?

[Firepower]

Bolter Neophytes aren't necessarily a bad idea.  Formerly, the issue was that you would be mixing duties of a squad, meaning it did neither well.  In 8th, some of those limitations are removed.  You can now charge after Rapid Fire, split fire, and you can charge a unit other than the one you shot.  I also wouldn't bother counting pistol shots in melee as anything to worry about losing, because to reiterate, you have to be in melee for 3 turns before that matters, and Neophytes will generally be dying before Initiates anyway if a melee even lasts that long to begin with.

 

Meanwhile, you still keep offensive power of equivalent strength to a Chainsword.  It will be one less attack in melee if you get charged, but 1 more Overwatch shot as well (unless you're already engaged in melee).

 

But specifically for foot slogging stabby Tide squads, Shotguns are probably best on the whole because of advancing and shooting.  Pity I only have 5 or 6 of those.  There wasn't much point to them prior to 8th's pistol nerf.

 

I find myself struggling to find the points for those all important Deep Strike units.  As a preface, I don't like Primaris, or soup, so dirt cheap units that start on the table are largely unavailable aside from tiny Crusader Squads of no real consequence (the first one to say "Scout Squad" gets a paddlin!).  After that, our Deep Strike units are very pricey.  I adore my Ironclads, but 2 with Pods are a big investment.  I like Terminators, but they're pricey as well, and not really as intimidating as the Ironclads.  Vanguard are fun, but get blasted easily, and if you take Storm Shields to mitigate the issue you end up spending way too much on them.  Podding in a squad is enormously expensive thanks to the new price of Pods.  Assault Squads don't scare anybody, and for good reason.

 

At present I can get 3, maybe 4 nasty Deep Strike units into a 2k list, plus an HQ or 2 (typically cheap Lieutenants with Jump Packs).  A powerful shooty army will have no problem blasting a forward deployment that small, even with such durable units.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Firepower

[Schlitzaf]

Eh I cannot help you there. Because really Reivars are fill that role that tide needs. Because you can 3-4 Squads, and 1-2 Inceptor. Plus a Terminator Assault for nicely at 650ish. Like if you aren’t gonna use Reivars, 4 Rhino Bros w/DblStorm&Hunter with DblPlasma, and HeavyBolter (5-4) is 227 Points a Squad, ten with Champion, DblCastallen and Marshal (300) Total. Gives you 1250ish. Then follow Buddy principle.

 

2 Assault Terminators w/Dbl or Triple Hammmer. And two MSU Crusaders, 115ish each. Gets you 1700 Points. Get two 150 Point Deep Striking Squads. Vangaurd be good for this. Also Bikers a lot of Bikers can do this too. 5 Man Squad is 140 Points. And puts out a lot of Bolter Fire

Edited February 20, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Firepower]

Eh I cannot help you there. Because really Reivars are fill that role that tide needs. Because you can 3-4 Squads, and 1-2 Inceptor. Plus a Terminator Assault for nicely at 650ish

 

Believe me, I've noticed.

 

Unfortunately, without Reivers (or to a lesser degree Scouts) which are cheap, and deploy up close to the opponent for early harassment, or soup which gets you a lot of cheap bodies, the whole thing rather falls apart.

 

I've always disliked shooty Templars as a solution, but I detest Primaris and soups as one.  

 

Ugh...getting side tracked.  I should really make another thread to pursue this particular discussion so we can get back to helping the OP.

 

Edit- So I did :D  Now, back to the matter at hand.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Firepower

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Assaoult squads for deep striking aren't bad, they can hold an objective or tackle some backfield threat for cheap. Reivers might be more survivable, but assault squads are mobile after their "impact". Also my opponents never shoot them unless i run a chaplain along :P

Another way to tackle "deepstrike" is to bring a stormraven or two. You can get across the board and drop a squad or a dread more or less wherever you want.

I think i advertised it in other threads, but as a core to my Templars, i like to run three crusader squads with plasma/combiplasma and lascannon or heavy bolter, together with a captain and lieutenant with axe and mc boltgun. it's  under 500 pts for bare minimum. If points allow add a few bodies or even razorbacks, melee weapons for the sword brethren, an ancient works as well. Or keep em cheap and get into melee units. Or... whatever you want :P

 

Considering melee weapons in crusader squads, i ran the maths a while back and while i don't have the results before me now*, i remember that the second attack from the chainsword came out on top of any melee weapon against marines profiles or worse. That's before factoring in the extra attacks and wounds from saving the points. Thus i only pick power weapons and such on the swordbrethren.

 

*quick math vs. marines:

Chainswords: 2*2/3*1/2*1/3=0,33 unsaved wounds

Powersword: 1*2/3*1/2*5/6=0,27

Poweraxe: 1*2/3*2/3*2/3=0,30

Powerfist: 1*1/2*5/6*5/6=0,35 (double for multiwound due to d3 dmg)

[Schlitzaf]

Wolfheart if you breakdown the math, the PowSword Init is a 33% better vs MeQ than a Chainsword armed Init.

[arigatous]

At the risk of sounding crazy, but I feel that I haven't seen anyone post this option: why not run bolter Neos with stabby Initiates? 

 

If one wants to mix, he needs to do exactly the opposite: run stabby Neos with Holy Bolter Initiates.

 

You usually want to remove bolter models under shooting because when you will get closer you need CC models to be alive. So it would be better if you benefit from 3+ under shooting than from 4+ - in generalmore models will stay alive.

[arigatous]

Considering melee weapons in crusader squads, i ran the maths a while back and while i don't have the results before me now*, i remember that the second attack from the chainsword came out on top of any melee weapon against marines profiles or worse. That's before factoring in the extra attacks and wounds from saving the points. Thus i only pick power weapons and such on the swordbrethren.

 

*quick math vs. marines:

Chainswords: 2*2/3*1/2*1/3=0,33 unsaved wounds

Powersword: 1*2/3*1/2*5/6=0,27

Poweraxe: 1*2/3*2/3*2/3=0,30

Powerfist: 1*1/2*5/6*5/6=0,35 (double for multiwound due to d3 dmg)

 

Sadly, 2*2/3*1/2*1/3=0,22 not 0,33.

 

But overall you're right, because power weapons cost points. If you will count damage per point, than 17 points of chainsword initiates will do 2*2/3*1/2*1/3*17/13=0,29, which is strictly better than power sword. Same count can be done for an axe with the same results - point for point chainsword is better. Mathhammer tells us not to use power weapons on regular brothers (and pretty much every model in game which only has one attack).

[Schlitzaf]

Well mathhammer is wrong, I’ve played enough games where 3 attacks vs 2 attacks PowWeapons. And the difference vs MeQ is massive. Like I do those 90 iterations earlier in my analysis thread to showcase that.

 

The PowSword is close to Chainsword point for point. But is in effect better. And you need the third PowSword attack if you actually want to reliably wound with your PowSword and you pay for approx a 33% increase in damage which is the cost of the Init with PowSword vs no PowSword

[Marshal Wolfhart]

 

Considering melee weapons in crusader squads, i ran the maths a while back and while i don't have the results before me now*, i remember that the second attack from the chainsword came out on top of any melee weapon against marines profiles or worse. That's before factoring in the extra attacks and wounds from saving the points. Thus i only pick power weapons and such on the swordbrethren.

 

*quick math vs. marines:

Chainswords: 2*2/3*1/2*1/3=0,33 unsaved wounds

Powersword: 1*2/3*1/2*5/6=0,27

Poweraxe: 1*2/3*2/3*2/3=0,30

Powerfist: 1*1/2*5/6*5/6=0,35 (double for multiwound due to d3 dmg)

 

Sadly, 2*2/3*1/2*1/3=0,22 not 0,33.

 

But overall you're right, because power weapons cost points. If you will count damage per point, than 17 points of chainsword initiates will do 2*2/3*1/2*1/3*17/13=0,29, which is strictly better than power sword. Same count can be done for an axe with the same results - point for point chainsword is better. Mathhammer tells us not to use power weapons on regular brothers (and pretty much every model in game which only has one attack).

 

 

Obviously i'm too dumb to copy paste fractions into my calc... *facepalm* I'll see myself to the painglove.

My argument still holds though, because the added benefit doesn't correlate with the added cost, moreso when fighting enemies with saves 5+ or worse, invulns, fnps or what have you.

 

Also Schlitz, mathhammer is never wrong (unless you're too dumb to calculate like the moron i am ;) ) it's the people who overemphasize the conclusions drawn from statistics :D

There will always be moments or streaks that defy the average. And that's where the fun begins and the awesome "screw this i'm going in either way!" moments appear :)

The powersword is 23% better vs MEQ, as 0,27 / 0,22 = 1,23,  compared to 17/13 = 1,31 or 31% more in points. Right? (Seriously, i doubt my spiteful self now :P )

[Schlitzaf]

I have done the math myself, a PowSword Bro will wound 0.33 (or 0.28 post saving) compared to a Chainbro wound 0.22 (post saving). While statistically you will see that 0.33 be 0.28, 16% of the time. During the average engagement, you will not. You will however see a Marine pass their 3+, in 66% of scenerios.

 

Dice don’t have memory, so even if you roll 1 dice three times, you should see 1 or 2 almost 100% (14% chance of not seeing a 1 or 2 come up if curious). Or in words the chance that a PowSword is actually gonna result in not being 1/3 as efficient as Marine is the same chance of a Marine not failing their save when wounded 3 times.

 

The reason the PowSword is less ‘efficient’ then ChainBro is the same reason a Gaurdsman is more efficient than Marine. It’s based on the equivalent wound to point spent exchange. A PowSword that does 1 wound, paying 8 Points for 0.5 wounds. Or 1 point for Aprox 0.0525 wounds.

 

A Chainbro than does 0.66 Wounds. Is paying 6 Points for 0.33 Wounds or 1 point for 0.055 wounds. A STR 1 Attack at 1 Point hitting on 6 and wounding on 6, vs 3+ Sv is actually going to be most ‘efficient’ option in game. (if curious it’ll be doing 0.08 wounds per point compared to a Chainbro 0.02 wounds per point).

 

Anything in the game that costs less point will always be more statistically worth more or more efficient. That is why the MathHammer is wrong. Instead you need to do a comparison based on relative damage output. In which case the PowSword is functionally 33% better than the ChainBro. And your only paying 4 Points, for a 33% increase, despite the actually equivalent to 33% of a ChainBro is 4.33.

 

It’s why 3++ efficient Points math is wrong or very misleading. Comparing a cheaper model or unit will always be more efficient than than a more expensive one.

[arigatous]

You guys can use the "Reliable Wounds" Mathammer table for the units with two types of weapons that I did for myself. Pretty simple to use.

 

Can be downloaded here: https://files.fm/u/39d85rnc

 

I made in with Numbers on Mac OS so the Mac version is 100 % reliable.

 

I also exported it to Excel but since I don't have Excel myself .xlsx version could have issues.

[arigatous]

Anything in the game that costs less point will always be more statistically worth more or more efficient. That is why the MathHammer is wrong. Instead you need to do a comparison based on relative damage output. In which case the PowSword is functionally 33% better than the ChainBro. And your only paying 4 Points, for a 33% increase, despite the actually equivalent to 33% of a ChainBro is 4.33.

 

It is hardly so, because when you pay 4.33 points for a Bro, you don't only get 33% of melee attack power, but also 33% of shooting power i.e. Pistol and 33% of a Wound. That is what makes points matter, not just the raw attack power.

 

A good example would be: you could either get 2 bros with bolters or one bro with plasma gun for the same price. When you're paying for the plasma, you lose one whole wound and half of cc attacks, but you get a tremendous upgrade in firepower - against MeQ plasma is 70% more effective than two bolters and vs TeQ overcharged plasma is 670% !!!!! more effective than two bolters. That's what you really need to pay for according to Mathammer.

[Schlitzaf]

Yes but your paying the equivalent of 2 BolterBros. Whom just for the record aren’t actually less efficient. 2 > 1.32 > 0.66 > 0.22 vs 2 > 1.32 > 0.88 or 1.1 or paying, 6 Points for 0.22 Wounds. Which interestingly enough double the BolterBros. Your paying double BolterBro to get 120% or 37% (44%) before saves. 2 STR 4 attacks equal 0.22 or 22%.

 

Plasma is Rapid and a Range Weapon which has a different comparison. Because at optimal range it’ll have two shots. Which is where your BolterBro comparison. However compared to Chainbro in ideal scenerio. It’s actually just as efficient. ChainBros do 0.44% but because they fight twice then do 0.88%. Which is equivalent to non-charging Rapid Plasma

 

Before devolve further into mathhammer, all I am trying to say, is for 4 Points a PowSword does increase your damage at similar ratio to a ChainBro. And that spending 4 Points doesn’t make the Initaite worse, less efficient maybe we can go circles, and it’ll change based on the metrics and variables. (The fact is a discussion at all is a good thing). And while we haven’t brought the SB in here it should be noted that, the efficiency argument is just as true as for ChainSB vs PowSwoSB. It’s 0.55 vs 0.33 (i.e Chains are only 40% less efficient. By doing PowSword your only gain a 7% increase in efficiency. If you do double Chain, it’s only 10% increase for the cost of 33%). If you take PowSwords on one, you really need to take on both. (For those curious 22 Chain vs 27.5, is 20% less efficience. So your your paying just under 30% for 20% damage increase. (Which as As an side I just realized why calculating it as 3 attacks at 34 Points vs 5 attacks at 26, makes the Init PowSword markedly better than comparing 1 attack at 17 v 2 at 13).

 

Long story short; if you have 4 Points to spare, there is no reason you should’t take. Points efficiency your losing 13% (20% increase in damage vs 33% cost). But there is a notable damage increase.

 

Further the PowSword on SB, should only be taken if have a Combi/Storm as 4 Chain at 13 beat 2 PowSword at 17. As you can always have SB throw a Grenade. If you do PowSword on Init, you should always take PowSword on SB. As the net damage increase from both PowSwords is 60% while net cost increase is just under 63.5%. Meaning it’s only 3% less efficiency.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Do you two wanna get a room? And a calculator?