Twin Autocannon build for Dreads/Ven Dreads

[Corvus Fortis]

D3 melta with 3+ non-rerollable doesn't impress me at all. Even twin lasrazorback is better, because it will have 2 shots for 48 and rerolls. Twinlas VenDread is infinitely better. Armiger needs to be extracheap to be worth it. 

And Carapace on Knights are not something impressive in this edition either. I  doubt miniversions would be different. 

[Capt. Mytre]

D3 melta with 3+ non-rerollable doesn't impress me at all. Even twin lasrazorback is better, because it will have 2 shots for 48 and rerolls. Twinlas VenDread is infinitely better. Armiger needs to be extracheap to be worth it. 

And Carapace on Knights are not something impressive in this edition either. I  doubt miniversions would be different. 

 

So the thing is that as they are mini-knights, they have to be comparable in points to actual knights. I'd imagine 250-300 points for a shooty variant if they release one. I'm hoping to see that the shooty variant can be equipped Mortis Dread style, giving them two powerful weapons + carapace weapon, with weapon options for anti-GEQ, one with anti-MEQ and one for anti-tank (this would be duel melta).

 

TBH, I just want mechwarrior lol.

[Helycon]

Their BS is 3+ though.

[Plasmablasts]

Their Thermal Spear is Assault, so that’d be BS3+ (assuming that’s confirmed) without penalty (unless they advance).

[Capt. Mytre]

Their BS is 3+ though.

 

Sufficient weight of fire on a BS 3+ platform is fine, it all comes down to their weapon options and point cost.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Not at all. Armigers are so-so for what they do. I'm sure we won't see them much unless they are extra-cheap or have option for gun instead of sword. Right now they are faster NDKS without ability to DS and only one gun. No cheap ways of rerolls either. Shooty VenDreads are WAAAAAY better.

 

D3 thermal lance shots looks solid, they have a 29" threat range. 14" movement is no joke, that's as fast as most Biker or jump units.

 

The ability to Teleport Strike is overrated. As for re-rolls, Knight codex might afford them a strategem. Depending on wording they might benefit from Ad Mech Dominus aura too (I'd have to check, and even if that's true you need Stygies or Ryza to land the priest in range). Even without re-rolls, they're fine IMO.

 

It very much depends on cost. If Venerables end up being significantly cheaper, I won't take Armigers. 250 points is too much for example, but 200 I'd consider them (Venerables are nearly that anyway and less durable).

 

[Corvus Fortis]

D3 melta shots is mediocre. A scion command squad or dominion squad with plain 4 melta shots are more threatening. Knight codex may give a stratagem or may not, but free rerolls from commander units are always better. AdMech give rerolls only to AM units, while Knights are Questor Mechanicus. They can benefit from Canticles for CP if Priest is in 12, but taking another Admech detachment just for Knights isn't worth it. It's better to play AdMech then. And 3+ withour rerolls is not fine. My SR near GMNDK tends to make 3 wounds out of 6 shots with AV weapons (twin las, twin melta, twin stormstrike). From 3 shots 1 fails to hit, another fails to wound. And this is if you roll 3 for number of shots (5+). D3 shots is the worst thing about his lance. To tell the truth, if they gave him gattling cannon, it would be a great chaff cleaner. I wish, they give them something like 12 shots, 5/-1/1, when his own kit is out. 

 

As for cost, his sword is already a bad sign. You have to pay for it, but he could never use it because he'll die t2 from lascannon storm, because no one wants a knight in his deployment. His sword good against something big, but such things are either screened (tanks) or charge first and kill armiger himself (daemon princes). Oh, he cannot even kill a scout squad in a combat phase. And, unlike NDK, he cannot be gated to be set free without penalties of retreating. 

 

Compating to VenDreads - they are more killy. Significantly more killy. 3 shots from t1 on 2+ with rerolls against d3 shots on 3+ with no rerolls. Yes, they are a bit less durable (no invuln and 4 less wounds) but they do not degenerate. Unlike other vehicles, it is not to hard to give him cover. GK can hide him behind LoS, making him extra hard to kill without melta-drops. 

 

Armigers are ok for friendly games. If they are extracheap, they could be decent distraction. But as unit killers, VenDreads are infinitely better. 

 

And it is no matter, how good opponents screen, it is limited to his deployment zone (unless for scout or rangers). But still you will be closer after teleport strike to enemy lines than after movement, except flyers. Even if deployment zone is 100% screened with no way of dropping in (which requires A LOT of models). Teleport strike is equals 24-9=15" movement with shooting and charging allowed. It also protects unit in reserves until your first turn. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm looking at Armigers because they can keep pace with my AC Dawneagles.

 

What you gonna shoot at?  The three SC on Dawneagles who are now 26" across the table, or the Armigers next to them?

 

Plus, Dawneagles Hurricane Bolters for chaff, Armigers Meltas for Vehicles.

 

And all of them are going to charge T2 as well.

 

Deep Strike be damned!!

[Waking Dreamer]

It very much depends on cost. If Venerables end up being significantly cheaper, I won't take Armigers. 250 points is too much for example, but 200 I'd consider them (Venerables are nearly that anyway and less durable).

I think they're about 240 points max, though can be cheaper at about 226 points by choosing the heavy stubber for the top mount.

 

They're a touch smaller than a NDK too, I thought they would be more the size of a Riptide, a Superheavy the size of a NDK who would have thought.

[Corvus Fortis]

A unit with mediocre shooting and mediocre close combat for a cost of Kaldor Draigo. Nice.

[Matt_149]

https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/2804 says they are 227pts?

 

I'd rather have a stormhawk interceptor...

[Waking Dreamer]

If you don't replace the Heavy stubber for the meltagun then yeah, they are about 227 points.

[Corvus Fortis]

Stubber is better than melta simply because it is cheaper and it least will be in range t1. Anyway, the knight costs too much for what it does. After loosing half of the wounds, it becomes completely hepless with m10, 4+/4+. 

[Helycon]

Stubber is better than melta simply because it is cheaper and it least will be in range t1. Anyway, the knight costs too much for what it does. After loosing half of the wounds, it becomes completely hepless with m10, 4+/4+.

'helpless' is a massive overstatement. Stop talking nonsense please. There are a lot of armies that start with a 4+/4+ and less movement on a similar platform. Maybe it's slightly cheaper, but you do have to remember this is only a bracket. Besides, it had ion shields, which will help with survivability.

 

But helpless? No.

[Corvus Fortis]

There is a very small but important detail you forget - these armies has either high number of shots and/or rerolls/stratagems. Until codex fixes this, armigers has neither. With 10'' movement it won't go anywhere too. Statistically, when he is down to 4+ WS, 5 scouts can hold him for 3 turns. (4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 dead scouts per turn). And, unlike true knights, he cannot go out of close combat and shoot.

 

5++ works against shooting only. Psychic heavy armies or good close combat armies will ignore it completely. When it catches 6-8 lascannon/melta wounds, it won't save him either.

[Helycon]

There is a very small but important detail you forget - these armies has either high number of shots and/or rerolls/stratagems. Until codex fixes this, armigers has neither. With 10'' movement it won't go anywhere too. Statistically, when he is down to 4+ WS, 5 scouts can hold him for 3 turns. (4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 dead scouts per turn). And, unlike true knights, he cannot go out of close combat and shoot.

 

5++ works against shooting only. Psychic heavy armies or good close combat armies will ignore it completely. When it catches 6-8 lascannon/melta wounds, it won't save him either.

everything you just noted counts for virtually any unit, so your argument doesn't hold at all.

[Danarc]

It is absolutely overpriced and I agree with corvus, they don’t have place in any army probably.

[Corvus Fortis]

Ok, here comes examples:

 

1) Kastellans with their 4+ BS annihilate any unit because of number of shots and rerolls. Same is true for IG tanks;

2) NDK will not be tied for the whole game, because he can Gate out of combat;

3) Custodes contemptor has 5++, helps a bit, but falls as soon as focused;

4) SM Predator will stand and shoot it's targets insted of going to enemy lines, so may not fear meeting 5 scouts (or more likely 30 brimstones) on its way;

 

The problem of armiger is exactly the same as any close-combat dreadnought. Movement and assault melta indulges it a bit, but cost and degeneration makes it the same. But close combat dread at least can be delivered with stormraven or IA drop-pods.

[Helycon]

Ok, here comes examples:

 

1) Kastellans with their 4+ BS annihilate any unit because of number of shots and rerolls. Same is true for IG tanks;

2) NDK will not be tied for the whole game, because he can Gate out of combat;

3) Custodes contemptor has 5++, helps a bit, but falls as soon as focused;

4) SM Predator will stand and shoot it's targets insted of going to enemy lines, so may not fear meeting 5 scouts (or more likely 30 brimstones) on its way;

 

The problem of armiger is exactly the same as any close-combat dreadnought. Movement and assault melta indulges it a bit, but cost and degeneration makes it the same. But close combat dread at least can be delivered with stormraven or IA drop-pods.

I will give you Kastellans bij virtuele of wounds. Otherwise, they're roughly the same. The volume of shots will do a couple of wounds, the melta will generally do more., About 7 on average. Unless you keep them in protector protocol the entire time. Then they will slowly start racking up wounds, but the S6 just isn't great against vehicles. The roles are different.

A NDK is a lot slower, has the same amount of attacks and it's weapons are vastly inferior, save for melee. It's a bit easier to dislodge with gate, which is giving up mobility elsewhere.

The contemptor is about on par, maybe slightly better, since it does have better shootingbin terms of BS on it's lastrums. Better melee capabilities and more resilient. The dreadspear is probably doing less damage though, on average. It's also more expensive.

Predators are pretty much the same, unless you don't move them. If you don't, you run the risk of opponents simply using LoS to ignore most of them. The Armiger doesn't have that problem. Otherwise, a predators shooting is superior when stationary. It does have less wounds and no invulnerable save, so it's easier to crople, making it bracket even harder.

 

So far, I'm not convinced the Armiger is that bad, especially since not all of the rules have been shown.

[Gentlemanloser]

Its overpriced toot that might be fixed in a proper codex.

 

Such a shame. Such wasted potential.

[Corvus Fortis]

3 Kastellans with protector protocols will give 54 shots s6 ap-2. With Cawl and Elimination Volley they will annihilate any infantry and seriously hurt vehicles. With wrath of mars on top they kill everything. They can be buffed and they do not have to move towards the screen that can tie them. Their roles may be different but they are better in killing vehicles than armigers in killing infantry. Despite 4+ BS/WS.

 

NDK may be slower, but it is 9" away from the enemy turn 1. His shooting is better at infantry killing and close combat is superior because of d6 damage on sword and strength difference is rarely relevant. It has a psychic power and can gain rerolls. And it is a poor unit.

 

I was talking about codex contemptor, not IA one. It literally never reaches close combat unless someone charges it.

 

Predators has 4 shots straight. They have rerolls of hit and wounds depending on characters nearby. If opponent is hidden behind LoS, he cannot hurt you so it is rarely worth something to hide. Characters mostly or something fast for turn 1. And you still can hide something from armiger. He has 14 move, not infinite. 

 

But my point was different: armiger is poor choice, because:

 

1)it is expensive;

2)cannot gain bonuses;

3)way to easily countered by infantry.

 

If at least one of above wasn't true, I'd considered him as a decent distractor/big game hunter. 

[Helycon]

3 Kastellans with protector protocols will give 54 shots s6 ap-2. With Cawl and Elimination Volley they will annihilate any infantry and seriously hurt vehicles. With wrath of mars on top they kill everything. They can be buffed and they do not have to move towards the screen that can tie them. Their roles may be different but they are better in killing vehicles than armigers in killing infantry. Despite 4+ BS/WS.

 

NDK may be slower, but it is 9" away from the enemy turn 1. His shooting is better at infantry killing and close combat is superior because of d6 damage on sword and strength difference is rarely relevant. It has a psychic power and can gain rerolls. And it is a poor unit.

 

I was talking about codex contemptor, not IA one. It literally never reaches close combat unless someone charges it.

 

Predators has 4 shots straight. They have rerolls of hit and wounds depending on characters nearby. If opponent is hidden behind LoS, he cannot hurt you so it is rarely worth something to hide. Characters mostly or something fast for turn 1. And you still can hide something from armiger. He has 14 move, not infinite. 

 

But my point was different: armiger is poor choice, because:

 

1)it is expensive;

2)cannot gain bonuses;

3)way to easily countered by infantry.

 

If at least one of above wasn't true, I'd considered him as a decent distractor/big game hunter. 

 

Literally EVERY single example you gave has more points added to it by buffing units. The same can be done to armigers if you spend the points for them. Sure, they need to be mechanicum, but adding CAWL to the equation was just a huge no-no. Comparing the Armiger in a vaccum to everything else outside of it is not doing it any justice.

[Corvus Fortis]

I repeat again, the problem of amriger that there is roughly 3 stratagems, that can be applied to it, one if you go without mechanicus.

 

Cawl is not standing there to give rerolls just to kastellans. It can give it aura to 6 plasma kataphrons and 4 onagers in the same time. If you want to give canticles to armiger, you are forced to take lucius, take a teleport relic to dominus and place him in 12. And this is just to give a knight reroll of 1's for 1 turn. +1 to ion shield is good, but that is it. 

There is no meaning in comparing units in vacuum. 8th edition is all about synergies. And being in vacuum is the greatest flaw of armiger.

[Helycon]

I repeat again, the problem of amriger that there is roughly 3 stratagems, that can be applied to it, one if you go without mechanicus.

 

Cawl is not standing there to give rerolls just to kastellans. It can give it aura to 6 plasma kataphrons and 4 onagers in the same time. If you want to give canticles to armiger, you are forced to take lucius, take a teleport relic to dominus and place him in 12. And this is just to give a knight reroll of 1's for 1 turn. +1 to ion shield is good, but that is it.

There is no meaning in comparing units in vacuum. 8th edition is all about synergies. And being in vacuum is the greatest flaw of armiger.

You placed it in a vacuum by trying to use it with Grey Knights. It's not meant to go with them. So yeah, then it'll be sucky. Using it with Knights will make it a different ballgame, since it can actually protect the Knight slightly, since it'll spunge stuff for it or murder tanks. Is it the best unit evar? No. Calling it useless when bracketed? Dumb. It's still better than most units you named. It fulfils a different role.

 

And again, the full rules aren't even out. Let's wait for that until judgement day comes. I'm stepping away from the discussion, since it no longer has anything to do with the topic.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I brought up Armigers because they were (at least prior to leaks) of consideration as a replacement for Venerable Dreads.

 

At 240 points though with full melta, I have to agree. GW really dropped the ball. Even 227 with the stubber is still way overpriced. 

 

The D3 shots isn't really the issue IMO, Neutron Onagers also fire D3. The difference being that they're 170 points with that weapon, and almost identical in terms of statline. Armigers are also going to be ranging way ahead of your lines, so unlike Onagers they can't hang around a Dominus for easy re-rolls. 

 

They need to come down to 200 points, then they would be at least comparable. I'm hoping the Knight codex does that, along with drastically reducing the insane points of their bigger brothers. 

 

I'm gonna go with my original plan of four Venerables :( hopefully 30k rules for Armigers aren't garbage. I'm still getting three of them because I love the model. But yeah, hard pass in 40k until they get cheaper.