Feeling a bit Lost and Directionless

[Commander Dawnstar]

I've been going over my CSM collection lately and I can't help but feel a bit out of sorts. I originally started collecting Iron Warriors for the Horus Heresy and focused very heavily on some of the character of the 30k-era legion, but some time after it became apparent I was unlikely to get many games with them in my local area I ended up deciding to convert them into a 40k force instead. The Iron Warriors had probably been my favourite of the legions from as far back as the days of Codex CSM 3.5 (although I didn't play them back then) and I was really quite keen to try them out in 40k, but as of late I can't help but feel unsure of what I really want to do with my army. What I own feels like a bit of a mess and I'm really not sure what from the wider range actually appeals to me, much less where it would make sense to go next.

 

I'm in something of a difficult spot in that my collection feels a bit toothless. I was quite drawn to the Iron Warriors' character-centric gimmicks in 30k (Hammer of Olympia with Kyr Vhalen or mass Terminators with Golg) but naturally fielding large numbers of Chaos Space Marines or Terminators isn't exactly the best way to get the job done in 40k. It doesn't help matters that my Havocs (Autocannons and Missile Launchers) are lagging somewhat behind the times or that some of my mainstay units (Tyrants <3) and Mechanicum support (Castellax) just doesn't transfer between systems.

 

I was hoping you guys might be offer some sort of suggestions for how I can begin to drag my collection in a slightly more effective and cohesive direction. What I have right now either lacks focus or just doesn't seem to suit the current edition of the game, so I'd really appreciate any pointers you can give me going forwards.

 

At this time I own:

 

A Terminator Lord with Power Axe/Combi-Plasma

A Sorcerer with Force Stave/Bolt Pistol

A Power Axe/Plasma Pistol character (Typically Exalted Champion to accompany the Berzerkers)

A Dark Apostle

A Hellwright on Dark Abeyant

(I also have a few other character models lying around like the classic Warsmith and those from Legion Command sets)

 

38 standard Bolter Marines

8 Marines with Plasma Guns or Volkite (so "Plasma Guns")

2 Marines with Combi-Plasmas

5 Marines with Combi-Meltas

10 Marines with Autocannons

5 Marines with Missile Launchers

3 Bolter/Power Fist Aspiring Champions

10 Khorne Berzerkers

20 Combi-Bolter and Power Fist/Chainfist Terminators

5 Combi-Plasma and Powerfist/Chainfist Terminators

3 Obliterators

2 Butcher Cannon/Claw Contemptors (or Lascannon/Claw Helbrutes)

1 Quad-Las Predator

1 Rhino

 

[techsoldaten]

Sure!

 

What you've got is a pretty decent 30k army. Decking this out properly for games of 40k is a matter of adding in the hard-hitting choices that make the army tough as nails.

 

Here are some ideas to get you started:

 

- Iron Warriors get pretty good Daemon Princes. Get one, preferably with wings.

 

- More Obliterators. The IW list I see most often has 9. They are just incredible for the points.

 

- Lascannons on the CSMs. It's the best long-range gun we have, and not everyone is aware regular CSM squads can take them in 8th edition. Totally transforms the unit.

 

- 4x Lascannons to make a Havoc squad. The toughest long-range option for CSMs is Havocs in a Bastion, they can shoot almost anywhere on the board and it takes a lot of shots on the building to kill them.

 

- Cultists. 40 man Cultist squads are no joke. Give them autoguns and MoS for 160 shots at 12 inches. Use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem to move them up the board / regenerate lost models.

 

- For the Terminators, remember that WYSIWYG is no longer a rule in 40k. The combi-bolters can count as combi-plasma, and it's pretty incredible with what it can do.

 

Remember that the Contemptors are really good in close combat in 8th. The Laspred is a little expensive but worth it if you take 3, which opens up the Killshot Stratagem.

[Trevak Dal]

I will ask some questions to hopefully open up some more discussion: So what are you looking at as a play venue? Just pickups or do monthly tournaments?

 

If just pickup games, what's the color of those games? By that I mean, are you going to be playing "friendly games" against netlists and "tournament meta practice"?

 

You just doing a single store, couple of stores, or throw in a buddy's basement etc?

[Panzer]

Well give your Terminators Combi-Plasma and Mark of Slaanesh and you have a very potent alpha strike unit thanks to the double shooting stratagem.

Add a Lord for re-rolling 1s and a Slaanesh Sorcerer for the FnP power and thry should be even more reliable.

 

- For the Terminators, remember that WYSIWYG is no longer a rule in 40k. The combi-bolters can count as combi-plasma, and it's pretty incredible with what it can do.

WYSIWYG hasn't been a rule for quite some time now but it's always advised to do so since it's just the right thing to do. Shows respect towards your opponents who don't know your list as well as you do and is generally nicer to look at. Just like having a painted army and having your different legions/chapters/whatever units painted differently from each other.

For testing purposes it's obviously fine to ignore such things since it's just a temporary status.

Edited February 20, 2018 by sfPanzer

[Trevak Dal]

Indeed. I had a...interesting game once where I played against Dark Eldar that had Rhinos for their transports, and assault marines for some other dark eldar unit.

[Akrim]

I think you have some fairly good elements that I use regularly;

Annihilator Pred, Oblits, Zerkers in a Rhino

 

Cultists would be a wise option to fill your troops for cheap objective holders or as mentioned mass shooters.

 

Termies arguably are probably best with combi weapons and axes, all fists tend to really inflate their cost too much imo.

 

In any case i think you should prehaps consider building around some deep striking elements to go with Oblits. Termie Lord is a good option. A combi-plas Termie squad might compliment them well.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

You can leave the Fists on the Combi-Bolter Terminators and use one of those squads as anti-infantry when you feel like it. After all, dropping them in at 12 inches and throwing 80 shots at a chaff blob using Endless Cacophony is pretty frightening, and they'll still be cheaper than combi-weapon termies, plus they can charge and wreck bigger stuff with the fists. Vets of the Long War will help if you have to shoot something big and dropping a Terminator Lord with them lets them reroll 1's. Also, bolters benefit more from the IW legion trait than weapons with better AP and a big, multi-wound unit like that is a good target for the "Iron Without, Iron Within" stratagem and the "Delightful Agonies" Psychic Power.

 

Icon of Excess can get "Death to the False Emperor" back for your Fists if you really want.

 

I'm mentioning all of this Slaanesh stuff because of the Legion's vague tie to Slaanesh during the Rogue Trader era.

 

It's not perfect, but you can make it very useful without having to change anything.

 

For the rest:

 

Let your 5 Combi-Plas Termies and Obilits (yes, get 6 more) handle anti-armor. Go with lighter CC weapons on the Combi-Plas Termies if you can.

 

3rd Ed-style small infantry squads with Lascannons will do well in your Troops slots

 

Contemptors are awesome. Keep those. The Butcher Cannon is great.

 

Use your Combi-Weapon Power Armor dudes as Champions for extra firepower in squads.

 

That's all I can think of at the moment.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Okay ... a lot to unpack here:

 

I will ask some questions to hopefully open up some more discussion: So what are you looking at as a play venue? Just pickups or do monthly tournaments?

If just pickup games, what's the color of those games? By that I mean, are you going to be playing "friendly games" against netlists and "tournament meta practice"?

You just doing a single store, couple of stores, or throw in a buddy's basement etc?

 

I play extremely irregularly (although I'm certainly looking to improve on that) at my local GW store. As such it's difficult for me to give you an accurate interpretation of just how competitive the environment is, but based on my past experiences I wouldn't say that it's overtly competitive. In many ways I'm not really too bothered about taking a list made from my current collection to the store, although a few games might change that, and my main concern is more that I look at the sort of lists I've thrown together and feel a distinct lack of synergy or focus, and that's a problem I can't really fix by throwing more vanilla Marines at it.

 

- Iron Warriors get pretty good Daemon Princes. Get one, preferably with wings.

- More Obliterators. The IW list I see most often has 9. They are just incredible for the points.

- Lascannons on the CSMs. It's the best long-range gun we have, and not everyone is aware regular CSM squads can take them in 8th edition. Totally transforms the unit.

- 4x Lascannons to make a Havoc squad. The toughest long-range option for CSMs is Havocs in a Bastion, they can shoot almost anywhere on the board and it takes a lot of shots on the building to kill them.

- Cultists. 40 man Cultist squads are no joke. Give them autoguns and MoS for 160 shots at 12 inches. Use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem to move them up the board / regenerate lost models.

 

• I've certainly been thinking about a Daemon Prince for a while. Paired Talons is usually considered the way to go, right?
• Huh. I would have thought Obliterators were a bit too inconsistent to risk going so all-in on.
• Proxying the Autocannons for Lascannons is a pretty obvious step. I'd already been meaning to do this myself and they're not too far of the mark, especially as mine have already had a little bit of conversion wierdness done to them.
• Personally I'm not a big fan of Cultists - I play Chaos Space Marines to play Chaos Space Marines - but I definitely appreciate why they're worthwhile. I've been meaning to convert my Skitarii and Tech-Thralls into something that would suit the bill for a while now.

 

Well give your Terminators Combi-Plasma and Mark of Slaanesh and you have a very potent alpha strike unit thanks to the double shooting stratagem.
Add a Lord for re-rolling 1s and a Slaanesh Sorcerer for the FnP power and thry should be even more reliable.

 

Mhm, that was the idea. Unfortunately my Sorcerer is neither a Terminator or has a Jump Pack (he's actually a converted Warpsmith with that big cape of cables and such) so can't easily tag along to provide back-up. Maybe I'll have to try and work out some kind of Abeyant or Disk type platform for him just to get the point across.

 

 

Termies arguably are probably best with combi weapons and axes, all fists tend to really inflate their cost too much imo.

 

Yeah, I've been a bit unfortunate in that regard. I certainly prefer to play by WYSIWYG wherever possible, but dropping an extra 35 points for melee weapons on what is primarily a shooty alpha strike platform is a bit much, particularly when said weapons mean they can never score extra attacks from Death To the False Emperor. Something of a bitter pill there.

 

I'm probably just going to have to bit the bullet and see if people will be okay with me using Fists as Axes, as trying to replace 25 Cataphractii/Tartaros arms seems like a massive investment of time and money.

 

You can leave the Fists on the Combi-Bolter Terminators and use one of those squads as anti-infantry when you feel like it. After all, dropping them in at 12 inches and throwing 80 shots at a chaff blob using Endless Cacophony is pretty frightening, and they'll still be cheaper than combi-weapon termies, plus they can charge and wreck bigger stuff with the fists. Vets of the Long War will help if you have to shoot something big and dropping a Terminator Lord with them lets them reroll 1's. Also, bolters benefit more from the IW legion trait than weapons with better AP and a big, multi-wound unit like that is a good target for the "Iron Without, Iron Within" stratagem and the "Delightful Agonies" Psychic Power.

 

Icon of Excess can get "Death to the False Emperor" back for your Fists if you really want.

 

I'm mentioning all of this Slaanesh stuff because of the Legion's vague tie to Slaanesh during the Rogue Trader era.

 

It's not perfect, but you can make it very useful without having to change anything.

 

For the rest:

 

Let your 5 Combi-Plas Termies and Obilits (yes, get 6 more) handle anti-armor. Go with lighter CC weapons on the Combi-Plas Termies if you can.

 

3rd Ed-style small infantry squads with Lascannons will do well in your Troops slots

 

Contemptors are awesome. Keep those. The Butcher Cannon is great.

 

Use your Combi-Weapon Power Armor dudes as Champions for extra firepower in squads.

 

That's all I can think of at the moment.

 

I appreciate all the Slaaneshi suggestions in general because my was force was already more Slaanesh-leaning in the fluff to begin with. Essentially you had an unmarked Lord just about holding together the remnants of a Grand Company where his Second-turned-Sorcerer had dragged much of the ranged support elements over to Slaanesh while forlorn hope and assault elements had gone to Khorne. Needless to say they tended to suffer about as many casualties off the battlefield as on it.

 

Using standard Terminators as anti-chaff isn't a bad idea at all, and I'm certainly going to have to try it at least once. I can't help but think that the Icon of Excess is still better suited to a unit with Axes, although again I'll have to try it with Fists and see how that goes. It's not a big investment anyway.

 

My Obliterators are converted Aggressors, so I'm just glad that GW has that Easy to Build set now :|

 

Everything else is basically what I was doing or had in mind, so that's good to hear.

 

 

 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Oblits are inconsistent!  That is why you get 3 units of them.  It is pretty difficult to flub your dmg and str rolls 4 times.  And even at that point you kill stuff with volume of fire.  Oblits are also surprisingly durable in cover.  Im not saying they will live more than a turn im just saying that removing them takes a lot more firepower than most people think.  

 

Turn all those autocannon/missile guys into havocs.  With VoTLW you will do decent dmg with them.  

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

How about using another book to supplement gaps?

 

Want a Daemon horde?

 

'Iron Warrior' Basilisks?

 

EDIT - re WYSIWYG, as long as there's consistency I don't care personally and don't see why anyone would. So long as it's along the lines of "all the autocannons are actually lascannons" and not "this autocannon is a lascannon, these three are heavy bolters, that one is a missile launcher...", who cares?

Edited February 20, 2018 by Res Ipsa Loquitur

[Commander Dawnstar]

EDIT - re WYSIWYG, as long as there's consistency I don't care personally and don't see why anyone would. So long as it's along the lines of "all the autocannons are actually lascannons" and not "this autocannon is a lascannon, these three are heavy bolters, that one is a missile launcher...", who cares?

 

I'd rather have models on the table that match my list. It's a personal preference thing and removes the possibility for confusion.

 

Preliminary thoughts at 2,000 points (while looking to minimise new purchases):

 

Iron Warriors Battalion Detachment

 

Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour w/Power Axe, Combi-Plasma and the Mark of Slaanesh

Sorcerer w/Jump Pack, Force Stave, Bolt Pistol and the Mark of Slaanesh

 

40 Chaos Cultists

5 Chaos Space Marines w/Lascannon, Combi-Plasma and the Mark of Slaanesh

5 Chaos Space Marines w/Lascannon, Combi-Plasma and the Mark of Slaanesh

 

3 Obliterators w/ the Mark of Slaanesh

3 Obliterators w/ the Mark of Slaanesh

3 Obliterators w/ the Mark of Slaanesh

 

Iron Warriors Vanguard Detachment

 

Daemon Prince w/Wings, two Malefic Talons and the Mark of Slaanesh

 

5 Terminators w/Power Axes, Combi-Plasmas and the Mark of Slaanesh

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought w/Butcher Cannon, Claw and Combi-Bolter

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought w/Butcher Cannon, Claw and Combi-Bolter

 

I'm sure you guys can suggest some refinements, as well as Relics and such, but that's a starting point.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Don't get me wrong, I don't like running non-WYSIWYG minis either, but it would be illegitimate for me to apply my rigid rules to others so I don't care if someone else does it.

 

Can your DP take Stimulated by Pain? If they can, I would.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Res Ipsa Loquitur

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Okay ... a lot to unpack here:

 

I will ask some questions to hopefully open up some more discussion: So what are you looking at as a play venue? Just pickups or do monthly tournaments?

 

If just pickup games, what's the color of those games? By that I mean, are you going to be playing "friendly games" against netlists and "tournament meta practice"?

 

You just doing a single store, couple of stores, or throw in a buddy's basement etc?

 

I play extremely irregularly (although I'm certainly looking to improve on that) at my local GW store. As such it's difficult for me to give you an accurate interpretation of just how competitive the environment is, but based on my past experiences I wouldn't say that it's overtly competitive. In many ways I'm not really too bothered about taking a list made from my current collection to the store, although a few games might change that, and my main concern is more that I look at the sort of lists I've thrown together and feel a distinct lack of synergy or focus, and that's a problem I can't really fix by throwing more vanilla Marines at it.

 

- Iron Warriors get pretty good Daemon Princes. Get one, preferably with wings.

- More Obliterators. The IW list I see most often has 9. They are just incredible for the points.

- Lascannons on the CSMs. It's the best long-range gun we have, and not everyone is aware regular CSM squads can take them in 8th edition. Totally transforms the unit.

- 4x Lascannons to make a Havoc squad. The toughest long-range option for CSMs is Havocs in a Bastion, they can shoot almost anywhere on the board and it takes a lot of shots on the building to kill them.

- Cultists. 40 man Cultist squads are no joke. Give them autoguns and MoS for 160 shots at 12 inches. Use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem to move them up the board / regenerate lost models.

 

• I've certainly been thinking about a Daemon Prince for a while. Paired Talons is usually considered the way to go, right?
• Huh. I would have thought Obliterators were a bit too inconsistent to risk going so all-in on.
• Proxying the Autocannons for Lascannons is a pretty obvious step. I'd already been meaning to do this myself and they're not too far of the mark, especially as mine have already had a little bit of conversion wierdness done to them.
• Personally I'm not a big fan of Cultists - I play Chaos Space Marines to play Chaos Space Marines - but I definitely appreciate why they're worthwhile. I've been meaning to convert my Skitarii and Tech-Thralls into something that would suit the bill for a while now.

 

Well give your Terminators Combi-Plasma and Mark of Slaanesh and you have a very potent alpha strike unit thanks to the double shooting stratagem.

Add a Lord for re-rolling 1s and a Slaanesh Sorcerer for the FnP power and thry should be even more reliable.

 

Mhm, that was the idea. Unfortunately my Sorcerer is neither a Terminator or has a Jump Pack (he's actually a converted Warpsmith with that big cape of cables and such) so can't easily tag along to provide back-up. Maybe I'll have to try and work out some kind of Abeyant or Disk type platform for him just to get the point across.

 

 

Termies arguably are probably best with combi weapons and axes, all fists tend to really inflate their cost too much imo.

 

Yeah, I've been a bit unfortunate in that regard. I certainly prefer to play by WYSIWYG wherever possible, but dropping an extra 35 points for melee weapons on what is primarily a shooty alpha strike platform is a bit much, particularly when said weapons mean they can never score extra attacks from Death To the False Emperor. Something of a bitter pill there.

 

I'm probably just going to have to bit the bullet and see if people will be okay with me using Fists as Axes, as trying to replace 25 Cataphractii/Tartaros arms seems like a massive investment of time and money.

 

You can leave the Fists on the Combi-Bolter Terminators and use one of those squads as anti-infantry when you feel like it. After all, dropping them in at 12 inches and throwing 80 shots at a chaff blob using Endless Cacophony is pretty frightening, and they'll still be cheaper than combi-weapon termies, plus they can charge and wreck bigger stuff with the fists. Vets of the Long War will help if you have to shoot something big and dropping a Terminator Lord with them lets them reroll 1's. Also, bolters benefit more from the IW legion trait than weapons with better AP and a big, multi-wound unit like that is a good target for the "Iron Without, Iron Within" stratagem and the "Delightful Agonies" Psychic Power.

 

Icon of Excess can get "Death to the False Emperor" back for your Fists if you really want.

 

I'm mentioning all of this Slaanesh stuff because of the Legion's vague tie to Slaanesh during the Rogue Trader era.

 

It's not perfect, but you can make it very useful without having to change anything.

 

For the rest:

 

Let your 5 Combi-Plas Termies and Obilits (yes, get 6 more) handle anti-armor. Go with lighter CC weapons on the Combi-Plas Termies if you can.

 

3rd Ed-style small infantry squads with Lascannons will do well in your Troops slots

 

Contemptors are awesome. Keep those. The Butcher Cannon is great.

 

Use your Combi-Weapon Power Armor dudes as Champions for extra firepower in squads.

 

That's all I can think of at the moment.

 

I appreciate all the Slaaneshi suggestions in general because my was force was already more Slaanesh-leaning in the fluff to begin with. Essentially you had an unmarked Lord just about holding together the remnants of a Grand Company where his Second-turned-Sorcerer had dragged much of the ranged support elements over to Slaanesh while forlorn hope and assault elements had gone to Khorne. Needless to say they tended to suffer about as many casualties off the battlefield as on it.

 

Using standard Terminators as anti-chaff isn't a bad idea at all, and I'm certainly going to have to try it at least once. I can't help but think that the Icon of Excess is still better suited to a unit with Axes, although again I'll have to try it with Fists and see how that goes. It's not a big investment anyway.

 

My Obliterators are converted Aggressors, so I'm just glad that GW has that Easy to Build set now :|

 

Everything else is basically what I was doing or had in mind, so that's good to hear.

No problem. As a fellow IW player, I'm glad you found it helpful.

 

I have a pretty similar story for my IW army. In 3.5 and 4th, I ran a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor that had so many points of Gifts, he technically qualified as a Daemon Prince. Since I decided to spruce my IW up a bit for 8th ed, I decided that in the intervening time between the old state of the game and the Dark Imperium, he became a true Daemon Prince and I looked to the fluff for what god would be best.

 

First, I thought Khorne, given the old association with Berserkers, but then I saw how much the new Slaanesh buffs benefited ranged units....and somebody mentioned the Rogue Trader listing of IW under Slaanesh. Then I got to thinking about shellshock, the chaos of war and the adrenaline, flow state, etc. that are all associated with combat. Coupled with the Legion's desire to attain a more perfect state through bionics, that cinched it.

 

I imagine Slaanesh IW basically living their lives prepetually mind-locked in their own versions of the bridge scene from "Apocalypse Now," or maybe the beach scene. Then again, there are many that would fit. In any case, they love every minute of it and are paranoid about interacting with others because it pulls them out of their autistic, Chaotic inner paradise and makes them doubt reality.  When they get to physically express those feelings, it's even better.

 

My former Lord and his close circle are all Slaanesh, as are all of my units with the "Daemon" keyword. Everyone else is still unmarked, figuring out whether they're going to stay with the old die-hards who won't embrace a god or give in and reap the rewards.

 

One of these days, I'm going to paint a Storm Eagle up in the legion colors, with a telltale Blackhorse logo and some "Dorn Don't Surf!!" graffiti.

Edited February 20, 2018 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

EDIT - re WYSIWYG, as long as there's consistency I don't care personally and don't see why anyone would. So long as it's along the lines of "all the autocannons are actually lascannons" and not "this autocannon is a lascannon, these three are heavy bolters, that one is a missile launcher...", who cares?

 

I'd rather have models on the table that match my list. It's a personal preference thing and removes the possibility for confusion.

 

Preliminary thoughts at 2,000 points (while looking to minimise new purchases):

 

Iron Warriors Battalion Detachment

 

Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour w/Power Axe, Combi-Plasma and the Mark of Slaanesh

Sorcerer w/Jump Pack, Force Stave, Bolt Pistol and the Mark of Slaanesh

 

40 Chaos Cultists

5 Chaos Space Marines w/Lascannon, Combi-Plasma and the Mark of Slaanesh

5 Chaos Space Marines w/Lascannon, Combi-Plasma and the Mark of Slaanesh

 

3 Obliterators w/ the Mark of Slaanesh

3 Obliterators w/ the Mark of Slaanesh

3 Obliterators w/ the Mark of Slaanesh

 

Iron Warriors Vanguard Detachment

 

Daemon Prince w/Wings, two Malefic Talons and the Mark of Slaanesh

 

5 Terminators w/Power Axes, Combi-Plasmas and the Mark of Slaanesh

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought w/Butcher Cannon, Claw and Combi-Bolter

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought w/Butcher Cannon, Claw and Combi-Bolter

 

I'm sure you guys can suggest some refinements, as well as Relics and such, but that's a starting point.

 

Nice. It's even in a multiple of 3, like the old Index Astartes fluff. 69 models. :)

 

Make the DP the Warlord and give him Cold and Bitter for his Trait and the Fleshmetal Exoskeleton for his relic. 2+ save and re-gen of 1 wound every round will make him hard to get rid of, then surround him with 40 now-fearless cultists and march forward. When their numbers get low, pop Tide of Traitors, fly him over to where the new ones come in and repeat. :)

[Commander Dawnstar]

Can your DP take Stimulated by Pain? If they can, I would.

 

Nope, that's the Emperor's Children's trait.

 

Nice. It's even in a multiple of 3, like the old Index Astartes fluff. 69 models.

 

It just had to be, didn't it :\

[Panzer]

 

Nice. It's even in a multiple of 3, like the old Index Astartes fluff. 69 models.

 

It just had to be, didn't it :\

 

It's a sign! Slaanesh has blessed you! :D