Mostwanted Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) I'm looking for good, new paint brushes, and have read in the past about Winsor and Newton series 7 being very good quality. Does anyone have experience with these and how do they compare to GW ones? I've seen that there are two types of series 7 brushes, the standard and the 'miniature' brushes. The miniature ones supposedly have shorter hairs and are designed for model painting. Would these be the better option than the standard series 7 brushes? Edited February 20, 2018 by Mostwanted Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 They are far, far superior. There are other brands out there which are on a similar level, but W&N are my favourite. I'd definitely invest in brush soap though to look after them, as they don't come cheap. The vast majority of the professional/competition level painters I know use the standard series 7, as the miniature series does not hold paint as well as the normal version, and as a result are more prone to taking damage. It's up to personal preference in the end, but I'd recommend using the standard series 7. SickSix and Bloody Legionnaire 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5015503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhanist Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 What brushes are best can be a lengthy discussion...  For miniature painting, we use watercolour brushes because we need such fine points. The general thing is that red sable brushes are better quality than synthetic, and kolinsky sable is better quality than both, but also more delicate.  Assembling the brush also takes care and skill by a good craftsman. It's worth pointing out that kolinsky sable is usually made from the winter tail of wild trapped siberian weasels which are otherwise considered vermin. Some people, such as vegans, prefer not to use such a product. It is also partly why the brushes are so expensive, as the weasels cannot usually be farmed.  Moving on. Standard GW brushes are not kolinsky sable, certainly. At one point, the artificer brushes were in fact relabelled and pricier W&N series 7s - I don't know if that remains true. The advantage of kolinsky is that it has both a good body (allows you to carry quite a bit of paint before having to refill) and a very sharp point - and the brush 'springs' back into shape easily.  W&N series 7 are kolinsky sable. They've been around for a very long time, and are considered a very high quality brush. They are the most well known kolinsky brush, and popular. Generally, the miniature size is a bit too short for general use and doesn't carry as much paint, so the standard series 7's are generally preferred for our kind of painting. The miniature refers to miniature watercolours, rather than our miniatures :)  I have had several series 7s in the past, but have since stopped buying. They did appear to go through a bit of a quality control rough patch in the last few years (it was rumoured they'd switched production to china) and I had two of them split (i.e. end up looking like a toasting fork) after only a few months. I'm not the only one who's had a dud series 7 in the last few years, but many people still swear by them as the best brush available and have had no problems, so take that as you will.  I switched to the raphael 8404; another kolinsky brush that is a bit less well known (a french maker for the last 200 odd years) but is generally reviewed to be the equal of older W&N series 7 - I certainly have had no issues with them, and they are my go to for top tier brushes. The only thing to be aware of they're slightly larger than a series 7; a size 0 raphael 8404 is the same size as a series 7 size 1, a size 2/0 8404 is equivalent to a W&N size 0 etc. This also usually means they're a touch cheaper than W&N 7's, which is a plus...  Another good UK brush is the rosemary & co series 33. They're half the price of a series 7, and use the same sizes. They are not quite as good as a top-notch series 7 (or an 8404) but they're still very good, a big step up from citadel brushes, and possibly a good place to start with kolinsky brushes if you've never used one before given you're in the UK.  If you do have a local artist supply store, it is a good way to buy brushes as you can then check the actual brush returns to a sharp point after wetting and reshaping. A good shop will be happy to let you do so if you're genuinely there to buy (and often will have a water dish for exactly this). But their selection will likely be smaller. But if you have to buy online, make sure they do returns - they are hand made after all, and every brand can potentially let a dud through, though it should be rare.  A good kolinsky brush will last years if well cared for. The key thing is to not let any paint get under the ferrule, ever, and not to let paint dry on them. It's also best to let them dry tip down after finishing, or at least on their side, so water doesn't pool under the ferrule and weaken the glue. When dry, store upright or in a brush roll with the plastic protector on.  It's also advisable to clean the brush a few times a year - masters brush cleaner is a staple for this, though ordinary hand soap will do. If you're feeling extra energetic, a 2nd round with some hair conditioner will help protect the natural hair - soap dries it out somewhat, and the conditioner will help protect it. Avoid paint stripper, it can ruin the point.  What sizes to get is well, another personal preference. Personally, I use the equivalent of a size 1 series 7 for layering and general work (i.e. a raphael 8404 size 0), a series 7 size 0 (8404 size 2/0) for details, and a size 00 (3/0 8404) for pupils. A size 2 would be a suitable size for base coating and washes - but then, you don't actually need the best quality point for that and it will wear the brush out faster, so I personally use a rosemary & co 401 size 2 for that sort of thing (a cheap sable synthetic blend) - others use GW brushes or other cheap brushes for the larger sizes. You can also base coat with a size 1, the kolinsky will carry surprisingly more paint than you're used to. N1SB, Aramis K, hierojin and 5 others 8 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5015543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major_Gilbear Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 I use W&N Series 7 extensively - I love them, and would never go back. The regular-sized ones are what you need, as the miniature ones simply don't hold enough paint to be useful. I recommend starting with a size 1 and see how you get on. For what it's worth, I can paint most of my models with a size 1, even down to reflections on the pupils of eyes - that's how sharp the points are even on the bigger sizes. I did also buy also a size 0 right at the start when I switched to W&N, but it's sat unused in my case because the #1 does everything. B) Here's a (slightly blurry) example of relative sizes: And here's a Size 1 against the model's eye: I don't know how easy it is to get W&N everywhere, but you might also want to look into Raphael and Rosemary fine sable brushes too. :) Arkhanist, Subtle Discord and Dosjetka 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5015544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloody Legionnaire Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 There are two types of Series 7 brushes. Their regular line and their "miniature" line. I bought the "miniature" line by mistake the last time I ordered them and they do not seem to be the same quality as the regular line. If you're going to buy some that's what I would be on the look out for.I concur with everyone else though, they are fantastic brushes. Make sure you pick up a thing of brush soap and they will last you a very long time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5015578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I've used the miniature series for years. I never knew the standard series was...well, better. Too bad they're so damnably expensive or I'd buy some replacements :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5015688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhanist Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) I've used the miniature series for years. I never knew the standard series was...well, better. Too bad they're so damnably expensive or I'd buy some replacements  Some people do prefer the miniature line. They carry significantly less paint which is losing one of the advantages of kolinsky sable - you can complete things in single strokes with a standard length which makes blending and glazing etc easier, and just generally go back to the palette less. The shorter length of the miniature bristles can be a bit easier to wield though, and you still get the sharp point and snap. That's why I use smaller sizes for fine detail - the point on a size 1 standard can definitely do eyes, but my aging eyes and hands can't, I need less brush...  For a newcomer to kolinsky though, I'd always recommend the standard series 7 length, or equivalent such as the raphael 8404 as most people do prefer the advantages. Edited February 21, 2018 by Arkhanist Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5015761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bung Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I recommend to look into Brokentoad brushes. As good as W&N Series 7 but a bit cheaper and better quality control. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5015796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yodhrin Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I'll put in a second for Rosemary & Co, I've yet to find a better combination of quality and price. They also do a nice range of sable/synthetic blends that sit between pure sable and cheapy GW-style brushes in cost, retaining some of the positive qualities of sable while also having some of the positive qualities of synthetics(chiefly stiffer bristles and a bit more resilience). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5015858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major_Gilbear Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 As you're in the UK, and if you're going to buy your brushes online, you might want to have a look at Ken Bromley Art Supplies. Â I mention them as I've used them many times, and because (1) they often have deals or sales on which saves you money on the W&N7s, and (2) because their own "house" range of brushes is quite reasonable for the price and therefore make for good basecoat brushes and such (and you can keep your W&N7s for the detail work that way). :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5015865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mileposter Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Going to put in another endorsement for Rosemary & Co. I'm in the US and still use them exclusively, both the series 33 and the series 22. I also use their synthetic nylon brush tip for creating technical effects (like spreading PVA glue). I had originally tried the W&N series 7, but found Rosemary and Co to be far more comfortable to my... Unorthodox methods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5015942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahwc Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I just recently got a series 7 miniature size 1 after years of hearing how great they are. They are great. It's by far the best brush I've ever used. Consider them an investment, and use brush soap to prolong your investment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5015974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostwanted Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 Thanks a lot for all of your replies and information on this. It has been a great help and much appreciated. Â Marshal Loss, thanks for clearing up the question about the standard series 7 and the series 7 miniature. Â Arkhanist, thanks for your time for the in-depth and informative reply. Â Major_Gilbear, good to see your pictures, heeled to see how big the bristles are for those size brushes and thanks for the link! Â I will check out the other recommendations from people as well. Thanks all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5016206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sockwithaticket Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Little bit late to the party, but will also shout out for Rosemary & Co. In the UK their 33 series tend to be about half the price of W&N 7 series while providing comparable quality. I do most of my painting with their 33 series size 1Â and 0. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5016891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Bloody Legionnaire Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I've used the miniature series for years. I never knew the standard series was...well, better. Too bad they're so damnably expensive or I'd buy some replacements on Amazon the standard line is actually less expensive than the miniature line... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5017315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtle Discord Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 When I purchased the selection of W&N Series 7 brushes that I'm currently using, and quite frankly at this point bordering on abusing since they're getting to be many years old (more on that in a second), I accidentally picked up a 000 Miniature which I was reluctant to use for quite some time. It's true that they are much shorter and load less paint but I've grown quite fond of having it around for doing particularly delicate jobs, especially fine or small edge work. The added control due to short bristles is noticeable once you get more experienced using good brushes and sometimes you want less paint loaded in/on the brush to provide even more control. I agree that standard W&N Series 7 are the better all-around brushes that I would invest in first, but if you're someone who takes the time to be very particular about painting smaller details, one or two of the Miniature brushes may be a good addition to a brush collection.  Absolutely get many low-cost brushes for any of the grunt work that comes with painting and save the quality brushes for the delicate work. Treat them well (brush soap is a must) and they will hold up for many years; one good quality $15 brush will likely outlast ten $3-$5 brushes all while performing better the entire time. That said, these brushes will put up with a considerable amount of punishment and soldier through it for much longer than you might expect, compared to cheaper brushes. I treat my brushes well to start but they do wear after a while and shed bristles at which point I will be less particular and treat the older brushes harsher and I'm still amazed how well they hold up where other brushes would just curl, split, fray, and disintegrate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5017353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlisimo Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I’ll add that a lower quality brush may seem just as good when new; it’s just that it won’t remain as-new for long.  And yeah, I’ve gotten a bad Windsor & Newton before and it’s frustrating, given the price. I’ll try one of the other highly regarded brands next time. As for GW, I like their drybrushes. Just those. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5018167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Fyi: the new he brushes are produced by W&N. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5018170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sockwithaticket Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Fyi: the new he brushes are produced by W&N. Only the Artisan brushes afaik and they're even more expensive than their W & N equivalents. shandwen 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5018193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 > The miniature ones supposedly have shorter hairs and are designed for model paintingNope. They are the "miniature" because they are shorter. Which means they retain the point a lot worse than the regular Series 7. With our needs, always go for regular Series 7 when buying W&N.Also, look for alternatives, among artist's WATERCOLOUR pointed "round" brushes. Not acrylic, those will be too hard for our diluted paint, watercolour is what you want.Generally, look for brushes that use red sable hair - Kolinsky is a good brand of _hair_, many brush makers use these - Jackson's, Winsor & Newton, Escoda, to name a few. Some series of good quality brushes indicate that they use red sable MALE hair exclusively, those are even better. Others use a mix and hair quality can be less consistent.My Escoda Reserva series "4" has a pin sharp point like the W&N "1" Major Gilbear shows above. That's the "male red sable" kind of quality, I think so far the best you can get. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5018201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhanist Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Generally, look for brushes that use red sable hair - Kolinsky is a good brand of _hair_, many brush makers use these - Jackson's, Winsor & Newton, Escoda, to name a few. Some series of good quality brushes indicate that they use red sable MALE hair exclusively, those are even better. Others use a mix and hair quality can be less consistent.  My Escoda Reserva series "4" has a pin sharp point like the W&N "1" Major Gilbear shows above. That's the "male red sable" kind of quality, I think so far the best you can get.  Red sable is a fairly generic term for hair from red-coated weasels. It includes hair from the body of the male Mustela sibirica - siberian weasel - also known as the kolinsky weasel. Also hair from the female kolinsky, and other breeds of weasel from europe or china. Quality can vary from very good to average, depending upon the brush maker and the hairs selected. Red sable brushes generally have good body and start with a good point, but it wears out quicker. They also generally have less springiness.  What is generally referred to as a kolinsky brush uses the guard hairs exclusively from the male Mustela sibirica winter coat, primarily the tail, though it is of course still red sable, being from a red-coated weasel. These guard hairs are the longest (up to 4cm) and springiest. This is what gives kolinsky brushes their reputation for body, long lasting sharp point and springiness. 'Snap' is usually used to describe how easily a brush springs back into shape, and the mix of particular hairs and length of the ferrule means some brands have a bit less snap than others (there can be as much hair under the ferrule as outside it!). One with a bit less snap will be softer and easier to blend with but need to be reshaped more often to get the point back, so is personal preference as much as anything.  You do have to be a bit careful when shopping - something called a kolinsky brush can be from the hair of the kolinsky weasel, so it's technically correct, but it would be better classed as red sable as it includes female hairs, or from the summer coat. This is mostly an issue with non-brush maker brands, i.e. ones that buy them in and rebrand them as part of their 'modelling' line. If it's suspiciously cheap for a kolinsky brush, it may only technically be kolinsky hair and not as good as a 'real' kolinsky brush made from the male winter tail. But this is natural hair we're talking about, so quality can vary from brush to brush even from the same maker, so it's more a sliding scale than a hard cut off good/bad.  Even artist brush companies can be a little vague. Take Escoda for example - they call their ÓPTIMO a kolinsky, but it includes female hair so more realistically should called red sable. Their RESERVA Kolinsky-tajmyr is a true kolinsky brush range though, and their 1212 has a very good reputation. I can't find the series 4 though.  We usually want the watercolour pointed rounds - there are other brush shapes, longer or fatter or flatter which can be useful for particular effects, but for general use the pointed round is the right mix of length and body and point for model painting.  Highly rated kolinsky round brushes include the escoda reserva 1212, the davinci maestro series 10, raphael 8404 and of course the winsor and newton series 7. Rosemary and Co series 33 is so cheap I suspect it's only 'mostly' kolinsky male tail hair, which is also why the point doesn't last quite as long as the others, but it's certainly very close in quality. I can't speak to other 'own brand' kolinsky brushes specifically, I'm sure some of them are very good, you can't really tell until you've used one for a few months! I'm a raphael 8404 man myself.  Synthetic bristles don't have the same carrying capacity of natural hair, and while the 'hairs' are usually tougher, they just don't have the springiness either of natural hair which is why they lose their point so quickly, and also have a tendency to curl. They are cheap though. This does make them better for rougher work though where you don't need the point so much and you'll likely be replacing them often, such as drybrushing. Squirrel hair brushes supposedly make very good wash brushes (soft, very high carrying capacity, not much of a point) but I haven't got round to trying that yet. Subtle Discord and Kastor Krieg 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5018297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited)  Their RESERVA Kolinsky-tajmyr is a true kolinsky brush range though, and their 1212 has a very good reputation. I can't find the series 4 though.  Thanks for the exhaustive post!  Did you try here? https://www.jacksonsart.com/brands/escoda Edited February 24, 2018 by Reclusiarch Krieg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5018510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostwanted Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 > The miniature ones supposedly have shorter hairs and are designed for model painting Nope. They are the "miniature" because they are shorter. Which means they retain the point a lot worse than the regular Series 7. With our needs, always go for regular Series 7 when buying W&N. Also, look for alternatives, among artist's WATERCOLOUR pointed "round" brushes. Not acrylic, those will be too hard for our diluted paint, watercolour is what you want. Generally, look for brushes that use red sable hair - Kolinsky is a good brand of _hair_, many brush makers use these - Jackson's, Winsor & Newton, Escoda, to name a few. Some series of good quality brushes indicate that they use red sable MALE hair exclusively, those are even better. Others use a mix and hair quality can be less consistent. My Escoda Reserva series "4" has a pin sharp point like the W&N "1" Major Gilbear shows above. That's the "male red sable" kind of quality, I think so far the best you can get. Ok. The reason I thought that was in the description on one website that sold them they said they were ideal for small model painting and something to do with touching up photos. Â I'll be giving the Winsor and Newton a go. Think I'll also pick up one from Rosemary & Co as well. As has been suggested, will stick to cheaper brushes for things like dry brushing etc. There has been a great amount of information put up on here that's really helped. Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344612-winsor-and-newton-paint-brushes/#findComment-5018838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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