Old Fart versus New World; an Ongoing Saga

[Firepower]

So I started to take another similar thread on a tangent, and figured it would be better off as its own topic.

 

Warning: curmudgeonly stubborn opinions ahead. 

 

I dislike Primaris.  I dislike soups.  I was quite happy to see in the Codex that Primaris are actually rather well balanced within C:SM itself in terms of capability versus points, and generally don't step on many toes of Marines 1.0 units in terms of purpose and/or function.  I was less thrilled to see how soups have become a mainstay in 8th edition.  My ideal solution to making my army good is not to use other peoples' armies.

 

So here I am again, trying to crowbar my archaic ideal of Templarness into an unfriendly new edition.  Something of a trend, really.

 

I'll keep it simple to start with: can a puritan Templar list win in today's system, and if so, how?  By "puritan" I mean melee focused (in particular, melee Crusader Squads), minimal shooty units, preferably with lots of bodies, no Primaris and no allies.

[Schlitzaf]

Semantics thing, I take issue with your term puritanical, Primaris are fundamentally part of our chapter like it or not.

 

The honest answer I’d give is no. You need Reivars for that force to be viable. However that said. Let us take this argument on its head. Presume Dbl Battlelion or BatVang; Champ, Marshal and DblCastallen about 300 (250 If Battl/Vangaurd Points. 4 Tide Squads and 2 Fire Support Squads (or Devies). 1000 Points Total. Leaving 700 Points. Here we actually take things backwards. And play the buddy rule. Pair units up. Take two Ironclads and 4 Regular Dreads. Regular Dreads run perimeter while Ironclad run center support. You’d be playing the body game

 

Basically replace the deep strikers with Dreadnoughts and more tide squad

[Castellan Doren]

I'm in the same boat about old versus new.

 

So far the only thing from my old days is a Lascannon wall.

 

A LRC with 3 5 man crusader squad and EC tends to panic a lot.

 

I used to never use captains. But after seeing everybody and their brother rerolling EVERYTHING, I feel the need to require them.

 

Good luck brother.

[Firepower]

Semantics thing, I take issue with your term puritanical, Primaris are fundamentally part of our chapter like it or not.

 

I choose "not."  But it's an argument not worth having.  The point of the thread isn't to lament/complain about Primaris.  It's about how to get on while disregarding them.

 

There's no requirement that it be a Tide + Deep Strike squad, merely that it meets the perimeters of the original post.  Tide + Dread spam is an interesting solution.

[DarkCrusader93]

I don't like Primaris atm because they lack character and a decent dedicated melee unit that fits with our chapter theme. if this changed i would fully accept them in my army.

 

yes i would say a puritan Templar army can win in todays system's I wouldn't say yes in a competitive scenario as I personally have no idea I don't play hyper competitive games.

I don't think that Reivers are needed I've played about 20 games around 2000+ points won 18/20 and have never taken any Primaris units once.

I primarily run a very elite heavy list normally around all three named HQ' 2-3 Crusader squads, 2-3 Vanguard Vet squads, around 2 or 4 Dreads, always 1 LRC and occasionally a Pred. Personally Id say this sticks reasonably close to our chapter theme.  

[redmapa]

Pure Black Templars will never be competitive, its funny we have an amazing troop choice but are still mediocre within the codex. That being said you can definitely win games in 8th edition as we got a good chapter tactic for assault and the OP armies aren't so powerful that beating them is impossible.

 

From my experience there's one way to play Templars to their strengths and that is to use Rhinos to advance certain units (Like Crusaders) and at the same time deep strike a bunch of other units in front of them, the deep strikers will pull the attention away from the Rhinos and allow first turn charges effectively turning them into a two edged sword that defends and attacks and that is absolutely freakin Templar. Overwhelm the enemy, rush forward and kill, dont build a list with expensive units and just crush the enemy through numbers, this is the idea with which to build an army list that exploits our strengths.

 

Now in most of my lists I always end up with little anti-tank since almost everything I have is decent at dealing with infantry but I dont have a lot to pop tanks or tougher targets but personally Im going to build a small 500pt IG Artillery detachment to get that job done. 

[Schlitzaf]

 

Semantics thing, I take issue with your term puritanical, Primaris are fundamentally part of our chapter like it or not.

 

I choose "not." But it's an argument not worth having. The point of the thread isn't to lament/complain about Primaris. It's about how to get on while disregarding them.

 

There's no requirement that it be a Tide + Deep Strike squad, merely that it meets the perimeters of the original post. Tide + Dread spam is an interesting solution.

Firepower that is why your a Chaplain and I am a lowly Castallen working my way to Marshall. Referring to choosing to dig in and keep pressing onward, rather Dornian of you

[Marshal Wolfhart]

I'm only 4th edition "old" but i never ran pure melee, even in the days of yore i had shooty crusaders, land speeders and terminators.

 

I haven't played my Templars that much in 8th but i had a few good games and lost as many as i won i'd say. My group is pretty mixed up in competitiveness, some serious cheese, some fluffy bunnies. Against the solid, calculated optimized lists out there we're screwed. The best Templars list you can build won't stand up to soup (chaos, imperial or aeldari) due to lack of options. I consider the LVO results as proof of this, backed up by my own experience against ynnari and guilliman/soup. Crushing defeats both.

On equal footing, mono codex armies so to speak, we're at a disadvantage against a few but can hold up in general. I build my lists around a core of shooty crusaders plus characters, some armor and a hard hitting cc squad with Helbrecht in a landraider, supported by deepstriking terminators and assault squad. The latter are more for objective grabs or taking out hidden artillery or the likes.

If you take the fire support role away from crusaders, you have to get it somewhere else. Predators (killshot stratagem is evil with heavy bolters and ACs), dreads and razorbacks would be my go to, though you lose quasi obsec for the backfield. I'd lean on transports to soften the turn 1 casualties and get a few inches of a headstart. Otherwise i think a lot of bodies can work to deny an opponent space to maneuver. If you wanna go with many melee units i'd assume you have to pull off multiple charges in the same turn to prevent the enemy from falling back and shooting singular units.

 

To conclude, if you restrict yourself in list building (soup), you will find yourself at a disadvantage against people that don't. If you restrict yourself with unit choices within your book you enhance that disadvantage. Add to that that the space marines codex is considered average or worse and you see where that takes you. In the end it's dependent on your regular opponents. Still i think it can be done outside very competitive surroundings.

[JAG Templar]

I am firmly in the camp of ‘new’ with soups, Primaris and other things going on now days but did play pure Templars once or twice a week for about 8 months.

 

I had reasonable success against moderate level of competition (local club players that I don’t know by name) with this type of play:

 

- Helbrecht and EC in a Stormraven with large choppy Crusaders.

- As many Razorbacks with MSU squads as I could fit in the list. Mixture of assault cannons and las cannons. Crusader squads can be choppy or shooty depending on preference.

- Storm Talons for fire support.

 

Play aggressive and smash face.

 

The answer to the question: can a pure Templar list win in 8th? Sure but success is dependent on the opponent’s list and skill level to be honest. Some weeks I would face a guy who’s list was driven purely by the models that they owned. Other weeks it would be a guy who would spend large and chased list optimisation no matter the cost.

 

I think the difficult part of these discussions is that we all come from various parts of the world and face different challenges. Although it’s the same rule set my operating environment will differ from yours.

 

To be honest though, I have the most fun during those Sunday afternoon narrative games where the lists don’t matter much and often over looked units seem to outperform expectations!

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

One question from a curmudgeonly puritan newb: What do you guys mean by "soup?"

[JAG Templar]

So I sometimes use a detachment made up of Celestine, assassins and scions. That would be considered soupy because it takes some of the best elements from different codices and mixes them together.

[Firepower]

Yeah, it sorta goes without saying that certain armies simply can't be beat without an equally super powered cherry picked soup list of ultimate destruction.  I've simply come to regard those lists as 'I'm not gonna bother unpacking my models.'  There are however some bugbears that I'd like to be able to take on with a relatively level playing field.  A purely Guardsmen army, for example.

 

I haven't played a lot, but there were a few armies which, once I saw deployed on the table versus what I had deployed, I already knew the outcome.  The most obvious was a list of something like 100 Guardsmen with a few Chimera, and Sentinels and heavy weapon teams tucked into the back corner.  Even without my abysmal dice rolling (never borrow dice!) and his character screening shenanigans, it wasn't going to go well for me.

 

The one win I've had in 8th was against a Calgar pure Ultramarine list, and I would say that was largely a matter of my Templar dice batch being thrice blessed, and his evidently being tainted by foul forces.  There was an obvious gap in experience between us which he abused a couple of times, so I don't feel particularly bad for his ill fortune

 

All in all my meta is hard to measure with my limited game count, but from what I've seen Guard seems to be the local favorite.  It's also important to point out my relative lack of experience combined with the difficulty of wielding an old fashioned Templar list effectively.

 

 

 

Semantics thing, I take issue with your term puritanical, Primaris are fundamentally part of our chapter like it or not.

I choose "not." But it's an argument not worth having. The point of the thread isn't to lament/complain about Primaris. It's about how to get on while disregarding them.

There's no requirement that it be a Tide + Deep Strike squad, merely that it meets the perimeters of the original post. Tide + Dread spam is an interesting solution.

Firepower that is why your a Chaplain and I am a lowly Castallen working my way to Marshall. Referring to choosing to dig in and keep pressing onward, rather Dornian of you

 

 

And we both fulfill our respective roles well, brother.

 

 

 

From my experience there's one way to play Templars to their strengths and that is to use Rhinos to advance certain units (Like Crusaders) and at the same time deep strike a bunch of other units in front of them, the deep strikers will pull the attention away from the Rhinos and allow first turn charges effectively turning them into a two edged sword that defends and attacks and that is absolutely freakin Templar. Overwhelm the enemy, rush forward and kill, dont build a list with expensive units and just crush the enemy through numbers, this is the idea with which to build an army list that exploits our strengths.

 

Now in most of my lists I always end up with little anti-tank since almost everything I have is decent at dealing with infantry but I dont have a lot to pop tanks or tougher targets but personally Im going to build a small 500pt IG Artillery detachment to get that job done. 

 

That is roughly the sort of list I won my single victory with.  2 Podded Ironclads, a Jump Pack Castellan, a Helbrecht/Champion/MSU Vanguard bomb in an LRC, and 3 Rhinos.  For anti-tank in such a list, Hunter Killer missiles are your friend

 

That said, the Crusaders did next to nothing in melee.  Shooting carried the day, beyond an Ironclad smashing his Repulsor and the Vanguard slaying his Rapier.  A melee against Intercessors was basically a drawn out process of us removing 1 or 2 models at a time, and the other melee was a massacre when Honor Guard and Calgar got into the fray through HI, not that the Crusaders made any sort of respectable dent against the Tacticals they charged to begin with.  Maybe 3 or 4 dead Tacticals, with 1 or 2 of those killed by shooting.

[Brother Talarian]

I've only had success with my Templar this edition, brother. That said my mets isn't very competitive, which makes

It fun imo, as many people being fluffy/fun lists.

 

Of course everyone tries to make it as fun but competitive as possible.

 

I noticed that crusader squads aren't meant to be particularly killy, mostly used to hold ground and mop up chaff, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

You can use larger squads with melta, or MSU for AT capabilitirs. I love the Company Ancient with relic, as on a 3+ they get to act again on death, that's extra shots or smacks, makes em more killy, they're also immune to moral so they'll fight to the last.

 

I think if you use crusader squads as a tarpit/mass triops, can be good to hold ground and act as a distraction. You can use dreads with lascannons, or a pred with las, or MSU with MM/melta etc for anti tank and big guy.

 

I like the ironclad in a pod, super awesome actually, I've ever used a FW pod, how many points does one cost etc?

 

You can also try MSU VV for some shenanigans with special weapons and stormshuelds. Perhaps one TH+SS, one TH + BP, the rest x2 CS or CS/BP to just drop and harass.

 

EC and halbrecht are also super solid to put wherever. I've had the two clean up two carnifexes and old one eye. They're super punchy.

 

What type of armies do you have and have trouble with, brother?

 

Some Razorbacks with assault cannons can help against hordes. Or VV with x2 CS

 

Could even try some drop pods for the back line/flank. With two MSU crusaders or one crusader and EC, get a DS chaplain. Or MM/melta MSU in droppod for some alpha strike big shots

[Firepower]

What type of armies do you have and have trouble with, brother?

 

...all. 

 

Fluffy lists are a lot of fun, but some armies can be brutally strong and fluffy at the same time (Guard).  Marines...not quite so much.

 

The FW Pod is cheaper than the standard pod by a bit, and has no weapons.  A completely decked out Ironclad and a Pod comes to 250 points.  Pricey, but if aimed at the right targets it can make its points back easily.  Trouble is, some armies don't have ideal targets for them (multi wound elites and vehicles).

 

As another quick exercise, I drew up a little horde deep strike list

 

Battalion+Vanguard

Helbrecht, Champion, Grimaldus and Jump Chaplain w/ Fancy Hat for HQs

3 Crusader Squads of 13 models each with shotguns, flamers, and stabby upgrades for Heavy Weapon and Sword Brother

Cenobytes, Chapter Ancient

2 Drop Ironclads

Cataphractii squad with a few claws to save points

Assault Terminator squad with a few claws to save points

 

Things like that always look good on paper, then run into some horrid complication in practice.  More often than not, that complication is that Crusaders simply don't hit hard against practically anything. 

[Ciler]

I think part of your "problem" is that you're not approaching your list building in the spirit of this edition. It"s not just about units anymore, you also have to look at combos and area of effects (AoEs).

You want a pure BT list leaning heavily toward melee. Let's look at our special characters :
- Helbrecht : provides standard chapter master rerolls and +1 str for models within 6"

- Grimaldus : provides standard chaplain rerolls and extra attacks on 6s to hit for units within 6".

- EC : beats against other characters, no AoE.

 

It follows that Grimaldus will be most effective if surrounded by a lot of bodies, and that Helbrecht will do best when near a small but hard hitting squad.

 

Our crusaders are not great at melee (they lack the number of attacks wolves or BA get) but two large squads with grimaldus will pack a punch and won't fear morale tests - if cenobytes). Consider a squad of 15 in a LRC with grim and a squad of 13 in another LRC with cenobytes (or 3 regular squads for the batallion). They will output 65 attacks, hit for 32 and generate 10 wounds on just about anything, not taking rerolls into account. This is after having offloaded 2 sets of hurricane bolter shots into whatever is in front of them.

 

Helbrecht will do better near a small unit with high impact. Hammernators are not a bad option since the reroll will offset the -1 to hit of the hammers, but the str bonus is mostly wasted on them, so a squad of assault veterans seems a better choice, power swords or axe depending what's ahead. Since Helbrecht doesn't have a deep strike mechanism, it follows that he should be transported along with his squad, a storm raven seems like a good option, along with company veterans and the EC (the veterans can take wounds for the HQs), and the EC does wonder when striking at Str 8. That same Raven can also deep strike a dreadnought and come equipped as dakka or anti armour as needed.

 

In there you have ~2k pts and enough bodies to work a batallion and a vanguard (7 CP).

[Schlitzaf]

My core feeling is that any list espacially footslogging Infantry, should be buddy based. As in two squads working in unison. Or the other direction you use the pincher tide. Forgoing the ‘center’ and instead take two tides.

 

2 14 Man Tides on each flank supported by their own captain. So 500ish Points each. Each each aided by two Dreadnoughts. Leaving you 510 Points to spend on other thing. 429 after Champion and Cenos. And one option worth taking a look at.

 

Is 130ish Points (Vangaurd version is 150ish) you get an ASM Unit with packs with triple PlasmaPistol. That aside, I think primarily question that needs tackling. Is the following, from experience 3 Tide Squads just trip over another. You can only reasonably get two squads in the front position.

 

That is reason I started using Intercessors, in the first place. So a traditional tide list, with 3-4 tide, until wave one is dead (and you are the mercy of bad advance rolls) wave two is stuck meandering. So do you have 1 Central Tide.

 

Which is preferable this edition, otherwise your spending another 60 Points + Relic or warlord trait for another fearless bubble. So against my better judgment. Might 2 FireSupport Crusaders in Rhinos, running perimeter to a central tide worth considering?

[SydonianDragoon404]

I think part of your "problem" is that you're not approaching your list building in the spirit of this edition. It"s not just about units anymore, you also have to look at combos and area of effects (AoEs).

 

You want a pure BT list leaning heavily toward melee. Let's look at our special characters :

- Helbrecht : provides standard chapter master rerolls and +1 str for models within 6"

- Grimaldus : provides standard chaplain rerolls and extra attacks on 6s to hit for units within 6".

- EC : beats against other characters, no AoE.

 

It follows that Grimaldus will be most effective if surrounded by a lot of bodies, and that Helbrecht will do best when near a small but hard hitting squad.

 

Our crusaders are not great at melee (they lack the number of attacks wolves or BA get) but two large squads with grimaldus will pack a punch and won't fear morale tests - if cenobytes). Consider a squad of 15 in a LRC with grim and a squad of 13 in another LRC with cenobytes (or 3 regular squads for the batallion). They will output 65 attacks, hit for 32 and generate 10 wounds on just about anything, not taking rerolls into account. This is after having offloaded 2 sets of hurricane bolter shots into whatever is in front of them.

 

Helbrecht will do better near a small unit with high impact. Hammernators are not a bad option since the reroll will offset the -1 to hit of the hammers, but the str bonus is mostly wasted on them, so a squad of assault veterans seems a better choice, power swords or axe depending what's ahead. Since Helbrecht doesn't have a deep strike mechanism, it follows that he should be transported along with his squad, a storm raven seems like a good option, along with company veterans and the EC (the veterans can take wounds for the HQs), and the EC does wonder when striking at Str 8. That same Raven can also deep strike a dreadnought and come equipped as dakka or anti armour as needed.

 

In there you have ~2k pts and enough bodies to work a batallion and a vanguard (7 CP).

 

In general I agree with what you're saying, only I will say that Helbrecht's buff actually isn't wasted on hammernators. In the order of operations, permanent stat changes happen first. What this means is you are changing the strength stat of the Terminator to 5, meaning the Thunder Hammer goes to strength 10. This means you can now wound toughness 8 (which is common in my meta with lots of nurgle shenanigans going around) and toughness 5 is wounded on 2s, again, quite common in my meta with nurgle and death guard's popularity. Toughness 5 Primaris, Daemon Princes, I'm sure there's others. 

 

My problem is, getting them to their delivery point together can be frustrating. As you said, Helbrecht needs a ride. Storm Raven is the obvious choice, but more and more armies as codexes come out can deal with them, and their contents. Also, I've not had much luck with hammernators actually dealing damage to things and it sticking personally. 

[Firepower]

Ciler, I enjoyed the use of quotes around the word problem.   I actually do embrace the new order of character buffs, but I largely tend to skip our special characters as a matter of economics, and because most of my lists thus far have involved Deep Strike, for which they have no deployment option beyond an even more expensive Pod.  As such, I tend to stick with Castellans and Marshals, occasionally equipped with Jump Packs to join the Dreads or (in the case of a Marshal) a Bike.  They obviously don't have the impact of Helbrecht or Grimaldus, but I still try to keep as many Templars within a bubble or two as possible.   

 

Sadly, I have only the one LRC, so I can't double down on our favored rides.  They cost a fortune in points, but damned if they don't earn their pay (so long as you don't get tangled up in a tricksy charge).  I do, however, have a mostly complete Stormraven in my (painfully enormous) painting queue.  The issue on doubling down is, as always, the risk of too many eggs in one basket.  A character, squad and Ironclad on a Raven is an enormous point sink, and an enormous target, even if there is also an LRC on the board.

 

Schlitz, you are right in that too many Tide squads in one place just end up tripping over one another.  Sadly, like the LRC, I have a limited number of Dreadnoughts at my disposal with just the 2 Ironclads.  As for Rhinos, I have no major issue with them beyond the limited number of models (kinda hurts the whole Tide thing).  I used 3 in my one winning game, and sadly 5 Initiates and 5 Neophytes are not something you want to charge with in most circumstances.   As everyone has learned by now, they don't hit especially hard on their own.  For shooty support squads, I would think 2 Razorbacks with small shooty squads would be better?  They are less durable for holding down objectives, but they can help the Tides more by having the range to shoot threats across the board.  The Razorback option is also generally more expensive, with Lascannons involved.  Still, it's worth looking at.  My preference is that the army be mostly assault oriented, not completely assault oriented.  The days of a totally assault army have been dead for generations, much to my chagrin.

 

Sydonian, yeah, I agree that the main issue with out Characters is the necessity for a transport.  It's tempting in a Tide list to stick them alongside the big squads, but having Helbrecht walking up the board is...well, if the opponent wasn't going to just outmaneuver the Tide to begin with, they will once they see him.

 

I'm continuing to play around in Battlescribe with multiple approaches.  Though it pains me to do it, I've concluded that always taking the Ironclads in Pods is not necessarily helpful when pondering new solutions.

[Schlitzaf]

Firepower I would have suggested Razor-MSU Crusaders, but I thought you have preferred a Rhino/9-10 Man Squad. Also if the enemy avoids the tide in a objective game like half to 2/3 modern chapter approved missions where you score at end turn.

 

Then the tide is doing its job

[Sword Brother Adelard]

What about Doren's idea about running MSU choppy squads? You still get 15 models, but a far better ratio of hard hitting melee weapons. Costly, but interesting. (You'd also hit Battalion quicker.)

 

Even if you go for a cheap option, and run two of the squads with Chainsword armed SBs, you'd essentially get two free attacks.

 

The other big advantage is that 5 man squads are almost morale proof and more adaptable.

[Schlitzaf]

Keep in mind PowSwords are used because you cannot afford another Initaite or your like me have a superstition about only running one weapon. Because PowSword armed Init does for sake of example about 0.30 wounds post save, while a Chainsword armed Init does 0.20 wounds post save. An Init is 13 (or “12” if equal Init/Neo), and a PowSword is 4 PowSwords.

 

I.e the PowSword damage equivalent to 1/3 of a Init. And is priced as 1/3 of a Init.

 

So you should only really take PowSwords, if you cannot afford another Init or Neo. It’s also why they are best in tide squads because that 9 Points you ‘save’ pays for your flamer or most of another speciel.

[Ciler]

 

In general I agree with what you're saying, only I will say that Helbrecht's buff actually isn't wasted on hammernators. In the order of operations, permanent stat changes happen first. What this means is you are changing the strength stat of the Terminator to 5, meaning the Thunder Hammer goes to strength 10. This means you can now wound toughness 8 (which is common in my meta with lots of nurgle shenanigans going around) and toughness 5 is wounded on 2s, again, quite common in my meta with nurgle and death guard's popularity. Toughness 5 Primaris, Daemon Princes, I'm sure there's others.

Perhaps wasted is a strong word, but it's not as optimal as can be - except effectively perhaps in a meta where T5 is common as a baseline, but that can't be very widespread. Especially with the added consideration of the difficulties you have mentioned delivering Helbrecht and the hammernators to the same place. 

 

This is why I would recommend the big H + Veterans, which synergises much more effectively and is much easier to deliver together.

[Ciler]

Ciler, I enjoyed the use of quotes around the word problem.   I actually do embrace the new order of character buffs, but I largely tend to skip our special characters as a matter of economics, and because most of my lists thus far have involved Deep Strike, for which they have no deployment option beyond an even more expensive Pod.  As such, I tend to stick with Castellans and Marshals, occasionally equipped with Jump Packs to join the Dreads or (in the case of a Marshal) a Bike.  They obviously don't have the impact of Helbrecht or Grimaldus, but I still try to keep as many Templars within a bubble or two as possible.  

The thing is, keeping units in a bubble really just isn't enough, you really need to build around the bubbles. And using vanilla HQs just doesn't work for Templars as they are not geared toward providing melee bonuses. 

 

I'm currently working on a thou[redacted] army list with two pivotal units, one requiring a relic and a specific psychic power, the other one requiring 2 psychic powers to function optimally.

[Firepower]

Well, it's a bit much to just lay out broad outlines of all the experimental lists I'm drawing up, so I'll just make a note of the general issues.  For one, the stronger the Tide, the less stuff I can have in the opponent's face on the first turn.  A Raider, the Templar Characters, charging Tide and Razorback campers consumes an enormous amount of points, and at most I'm left with enough for one 'hard target' deep strike squad (or two tiny Assault Squad harassment squads).  Nothing particularly scary to keep the heat off of the slow moving Tide.  Conversely taking a solid Deep Strike assault like Ironclads, Terminators and HQ handicaps attempts to take enough Tide to both advance and hold the midfield/backfield. 

 

Then the issue becomes one of speed: taking a moderate amount of Deep Strike power and some Templars in Rhinos/Raider/Raven to pour on the pressure quickly, but Transports cost an arm and a leg, once again leaving me with too few Crusaders to both charge and hold down territory.

 

In short, Marines 1.0 ain't cheap.  Balancing Alpha strike/distraction along with our Special Characters, charging Tide and objective Tide in the same list is a delicate thing.  One of those is always going to come up short.

 

Tactically, there is also the option of hunkering down midfield with the stabby Tide squads and just holding territory.  The issue there is a bunch of pistols don't create a very big threat bubble, and they'll easily be shot to nothing bit by bit from enemies with longer reach regardless of whether they're in cover.

[Schlitzaf]

Helbrect is a counter assault unit. Or a the crowning star of a Deathstar Force. You put him with 3 MSU Shooty Units in Razors and enemy’s gets in close jump out then charge.

 

Or you use him with 3 4 Man Company Veterans with StormBolters and PowSwords, plus a Emperor Champion, Castallen, and Ancient w/ Ascendent. In a Raider. You have 40 Storm Bolters, 22 AP -3 PowAxs, rerolling all hits and half of your failed wounds. Then if you die on counter punch. You on a 3+ can fight again. And furthermore your characters are shielded from random murdering.

 

It’s an 950ish Point Force. Assuming I can math correctly. And you’d need to protect it. 4 Razorspam MSU Crusaders (Approx 200 Points each with how I’d do it).

 

Leaving 250ish Points for other things. Two Devi Squads could be good here.