Old Fart versus New World; an Ongoing Saga

[Firepower]

Helbrect is a counter assault unit. Or a the crowning star of a Deathstar Force. You put him with 3 MSU Shooty Units in Razors and enemy’s gets in close jump out then charge.

 

Or you use him with 3 4 Man Company Veterans with StormBolters and PowSwords, plus a Emperor Champion, Castallen, and Ancient w/ Ascendent. In a Raider. You have 40 Storm Bolters, 22 AP -3 PowAxs, rerolling all hits and half of your failed wounds. Then if you die on counter punch. You on a 3+ can fight again. And furthermore your characters are shielded from random murdering.

 

It’s an 950ish Point Force. Assuming I can math correctly. And you’d need to protect it. 4 Razorspam MSU Crusaders (Approx 200 Points each with how I’d do it).

 

Leaving 250ish Points for other things. Two Devi Squads could be good here.

 

There is the trick.  I don't mind supplementing a Templar army with a couple of Razorbacks, but I dislike an MSU army composed almost entirely of them.  They're effectively Ultramarines with one special Deathstar.  That's the sort of army Templars began to devolve into as new editions came out and forced us to abandon the old identity one step at a time.

 

As an alternative, 2 razorbacks and 2 Tide squads could be taken, for instance.  However, then you only have 3 tanks, one of which is a huge target.  Depending on the army, that may or may not be enough target saturation to keep the Deathstar LRC safe.  That's a big problem considering literally half of the army's points are made up of the LRC and its contents.  From there you have around 150-200 points to play with, depending on how the squads are armed. 

 

As an aside, Devastators are a no-no, in accordance with tradition

 

It's still a matter of spreading around the points, sadly.  The LRC, Helbrecht and Champion alone cost nearly 600 points.  It's a nasty combination, but it quickly dwindles the rest of the army.

 

Random thought: how would a Storm Talon do to fill up that last bit of the army?  They really seem overpriced, but they do bring a decent amount of firepower for their cost, and may or may not be enough of a concern to draw more fire away from the LRC.

[Schlitzaf]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339181-black-templars-and-am-soup-2000-points/?do=findComment&comment=4974259

 

I am not suggesting this list, for you to use firepower, I just I know this list core works and thing working off this a basis. The first part is dropping the soup and Primaris. 650 Points as a base. First is replacing the Intercessors, we need something to place with Crusader who can provide fire support and able to move. I think 2 8 Man JumpPack ASM with Triple Plasma and PowAx is the name of the day (155ish Points). 960. That gives a solid core for the tide. Then we need a backfield.

 

2 MSU Crusader Squads as Faux Devies to fill Battlelion. Brings us to 1200. 2 6 Man Assault Terminators w/ Triple Hammer, gives a reasonable durable Assault Cadre. And a Cadre that can be joined by the Assault Marines. And finally running Perimeter Duty. 2 Biker Squads with Double Flamer, and Attack Bike w/HvyBolter. They run Perimeter duty. And support to your deep strikers.

 

Of course this is all a suggestion and me giving an outline.

1) Determine your Center or Core (my Guest Article on IM Explains)

2) Determine Backfield Fire Support

3) Determine your Forward Strike or Projection

4) Determine Perimeter Units.

 

4 is the least and most important. They are less critical part of your game plan strategically but tactically vital as they bubble wrap another otherwise vulnerable center.

 

@Fire if I ever say Devies, you replace Devies with MSU Plasm/Plasma/Heavy of Choice Crusaders. Functionally the same role

 

@Fire on Talon haven’t used enough Flyers to given an honest assement. Worried they might is that it might be too vulnerable as one of. I’d change points around try get 2. (run 2 Man 5 Company instead 3 4 Man should get you their)

[Firepower]

That's not a bad idea at all, really.  The only problem there is a lack of appropriate models in my collection.  Still, the topic is about general strategy and solutions around the limitations provided in the OP, not what I have in my box

 

Edit-  With a bit of tweaking, you can get something like this:

 

Battalion and Outrider

Grimaldus

Castellan w/ Jump Pack

Captain w/ Helm and melee toys

 

2 14 Tide squads

2 MSU with Lascannon/Plasma

2 Terminator Assault Squads w/ 3 Hammers and 3 Claws

2 Bike squads w/ Flamers and HB Attack Bike

2 7 man Assault Squads w/ 3 Plasma

and Cenobytes (for luck )

 

That's almost 80 models.  Pretty damn good by Tide standards.  Now, if only I had a lot more Bikes in my box

 

As a side note, for Tides without transports I feel that Grimaldus is generally more useful than Helbrecht.  That Strength bubble on Helbrecht applies only to models, not units, and concentrating all those models into such a tight space is not easy.  Of course there's also the re-roll bubble which is units, not models, but still with a 50 point difference in price, you're wasting a lot of points if you can't exploit the Strength buff.

[Schlitzaf]

I try. I’ve been playing some variant of a tide sense I started. My two core lists in 6th-7th changed no charging out stationary transport where

 

4 9 Man Rhino Squads (5-4, Melta/Pow then Pow/CombiMelta (Flamer sometimes))

3 14 Man Tide Squads (7-7ish, Melta/Pow then Pow/CombiMelta (Flamer sometimes))

2 10 Man Rhino (6-4, Heavy Bolter, Plasma, then CombiPlasma) + 14 Crusaders (Pow/Melta then Pow/CombiMelta)

 

Sometime adding 2 backfield MSU Crusaders or AM post 6th editon

Always having 2 Man 5 Man Terminators (3 Hammers and Two Claws)

Marshall + Champion, then post 6th Second Marshall

 

Biker Squads and Dreadnoughts have been in or out over the years. So yeah. I have a lot of experience with tides and setup. Honestly 8th has been the first edition to break up the formula and finally gave me the answer my tide lists always needed but never had. Cheap Durable Deep Strikers and Small Durable Footprint FireSupport and CounterCharge than can run alongside Tide Squads and not trip over themselves or just absorb the tank fire, that nominally tides are designed to ignore or render useless.

 

But to rewrite what I wrote

1) First Determine Center and HQ. This is the most important stage, you need to know at this stage if doing flank based tides or one tide in center

2) Backfield FireSupport. This should be Second or you run out of points. When you come back to it. 3-4 Lascannons or equivalent is all that is needed. You don’t need to crack enemy tanks open. You just need to force their tanks to be honest and not just act as chaff but driving in front of you, and throwing caution to wind

3) Deep Strike and Other Projection. The second most important stage, these are your Distraction fexes. As above they need not be killy, just enforce honesty. They prevent your enemy from just deploying everything in the central/across your tide. Even if those guns aren’t shooting deep strikers they aren’t in position to shoot tide

4) Perimeter Duty, these can also be called fill. You can run two Perimeter or one Perimeter Forces. I like two, but one is more practical. These forces are made so your enemy forward strikes have to kill ‘harmless’ units before engaging tide or your own firepower projection forces. And if ignored they claim flank objectives and tie up enemy.

 

The only role you can ‘ignore’ is 4. As 3 & 2, can both in theory do 4. And depending on 1 part of your core can do so too. 2 can be ignored if you intend to win midfield objective. In that position your forces aren’t seeking to engage or even win the ‘battle’. But win the scenerio. 3 can be ignored if you simply green tide. And do a double tide. Having one tide on left and right. In which case you are to win by forcing your opponent into a “right or left”. An small miscalculation or less than average role. Enables your cross board and engage. But a basic tide should follow all 4 roles, and fill in that order. Through that is my preference others may have another preferred ‘how to guide’.

[Firepower]

I can certainly see the appeal of Primaris.  I'm simply puritanical.  My Crusade would never accept such heresy...although if I ever got around to making a Blood Angels army, that would be a different matter :D

[Schlitzaf]

The Primaris remark was more of an aside than anything. But yeah also, why no Emperor’s Champion in your modification from my version? Grim is awesome (effectively turning every 12 attacks into aproxx Equivalents of 15-16 (ie two ChainBro worth of attacks$

[JAG Templar]

And you can get the full hit re-rolls if you upgrade the Captain to Chapter Master, without the 170 point price tag. 3 CP is pretty expensive though but can be worth it.

[Firepower]

The Primaris remark was more of an aside than anything. But yeah also, why no Emperor’s Champion in your modification from my version? Grim is awesome (effectively turning every 12 attacks into aproxx Equivalents of 15-16 (ie two ChainBro worth of attacks$

I'm not sure where to scavenge enough points for the Champion, other than maybe replacing the Castellan. Also, perhaps it should be the Marshal who gets a Jump Pack, to help with Assault overcharging.

 

Jag, both good points. I think CP are at such a premium it would really depend on the opposing army. If I'm looking at a lot of psykers for instance, I'd need them for Abhor the Witch. If I'm looking at a horde where every shot counts, then a Chapter Master may be a good use of points.

[Schlitzaf]

I prefer the Champion over Grim to be honest. He is 120 Points for a buffer. Sense his stats...leave much to be desired as a melee combatant. And Crusader squads throw out an acceptable number attacks. I’d rather the Champion whom can hit cleave elite units and characters.

 

Our power only needs to be used once or twice. Sense your focused mostly on stopping warp time shannigans or doom. Which as a general rule after turn 2 those powers are not terribly useful

[Firepower]

Well, there's also the Leadership buff. Useful, for Tide squads, especially if the 2 aren't close enough together for both to benefit from Cenobytes. But in a vacuum, yes, a Champion is mostly superior to Grimaldus, especially in terms of individual damage output.

[Schlitzaf]

That is why I use Rites of War on Marshall (unless I am more of a fun mood, in which case I use Angel of Death) alongside my Cenos. I mean with 12” in range be surprised if a one of the two tide squads were out of range. Not impossible has happened to me a few times

[JAG Templar]

Jag, both good points. I think CP are at such a premium it would really depend on the opposing army. If I'm looking at a lot of psykers for instance, I'd need them for Abhor the Witch. If I'm looking at a horde where every shot counts, then a Chapter Master may be a good use of points.

Completely agree. I fought a Thousand Sons opponent recently who turned up with no CPs at the beginning of the game. Spent them all on relics and character upgrades. In his mind that was the most effective use of his resources. Hard to tell if that strategy was effective or not - he was so unlucky during the game. Magnus died very cheaply to shooting as did some other expensive witch things.

 

I consider myself a middle of the road player mainly because of my lack of knowledge of opponents’ Codices and unit strengths. One thing that I have found to be important for melee armies is a really good understanding of the Charge and Fight phases. This may sound like a redundant statement because it’s so obvious. The rule sets for charge and fight are very, very simple but the nuances within those simple actions (positioning for charge, who charges when, who charges who, who can strike who) can make a huge difference.

 

I don’t have a magic solution because I immediately got alongside a friend who plays very competitively, and understands the rules in amazing detail. The kind of guy who picks up a codex and 30 mins later he can exploit it for all its worth. I basically got him to coach me through every charge/fight for about 10 games until I had the hang of it. Perhaps you know someone like this?

[Margulix]

Well, about primaris i agree. I think Helbrech will agree too, but i had a game against ultramarine primaris with Gulliman and was wrecked, the Helbrecht was slain in a duel with him.

I think that was their argument and Helbrech lost, got punched hard and HAD to allow primaris into his chapter.

 

I think it is funny to have one primaris guy in every crusade as butt monkey guy, who is being bullied by other marines.

 

I saw some templars playing all-primaris list, but i think that is weird.

 

Well, i'm still grieving a bout our ovn codex loss.

 

Also IMO templars need a single armored fist, and other forces as support for it, shooty or deep striking. LRC with heroes and hammer vanguard work well for me.  

[Ebon Hand]

I've played a lot of 8th edition, all as pure Black Templars. I have a fairly diverse collection, but limited to non primarus as I can't afford any of the new stuff atm.

 

Here is my take on what I've found over my games. Here we play mostly narratively (custom missions but with matched play rules), however there are Tournaments here too so there is a semi competitive nature here and a diverse field of armies making for an interesting meta.

 

I've managed to best Imperial Guard, Chaos, Eldar, and Tau, but I've had some trouble with Deamons, Tyranids and Death Guard.

 

I've tried a variety of builds and I've had the most success with running brigades or multiple detachments to get as many command points as possible.

 

The reason for this is because we are a shooting army with a close combat preference. That means I approach my lists with that in mind and use fire support along with hard hitting cc supported by strategems.

 

In order to compete in cc vs some armies we need to spend command points for strategems like Honor the Chapter and Only in Death Does Duty End. These extra attacks are crucial for making those engagements count.

 

In my opinion, if you don't have Grimaldus or at the very least, a Chaplain, you might as well just go full shooting and play as Imperial Fists. My reasoning is this; if your shooting attacks work at range, are the same quality as your cc attacks, and you don't get hit back in your own shooting phase, why even engage in cc? The answer to that is to make your cc attacks better quality than your shooting with buffs like Helbrecht Grimaldus, and/or Chaplain Dreadnought. Many other armies either have the bodies to overwhelm us or have the extra attacks on 6s anyway (Chaos Marines), and those extra hight str attacks add up, doubly so if you are using the strategems above.

 

There are advantages to close combat in positioning and advancing, and our chapter tactics and Crusader Helm relic play to these strengths. They keep our units cohesive with command and make our probablities more friendly.

 

It's important to know the close combat rules well and use them to your advantage. Know your charge probabilities and plan accordingly. When you move in to charge, know that you can stop at one inch and maneuver during your pile in. Use our chapter tactics to out range "template" attacks like D-Scythes, Exalted Flamers, pretty much any of those "charge at your own peril" flamer attacks. We are uniquely suited to combating those units without luxuries like Reivers.

 

For your shooting, you should have some kind of ranged fire support. You can improve its quality with a Marshal (Captain) with Crusader Helm and the Storm of Fire warlord trait (if your opponent warrants it) and Castellan (Lt) nearby. Just those two and a Land Raider Crusader can do some real damage. Predators of any variety are also good and do well with buffs.

 

When doing this sort of playstyle, I've found that Dreadnoughts or elite close combat units are a must. Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes, Greater Deamons, any of the monsters that can close combat well and escape targeting or survive the way in give us trouble. In this you have to leverage either the toughness of Dreadnoughts or the 3+ inv of Storm Shields, one of Space Marines key advantages.

 

Mortal wounds are indeed an issue. In the past, I've always played my Templars an inch from the edge, doing things with the minimum amount of force so as to be efficient in an army that has a minefield of inefficiencies and our own stubborn nature to hold us from what might otherwise let us gain a stronger choice. Case in point, I haven't used Helbrecht yet because I refuse to field him unpainted. The way to stem the mortal wounds is to just take them as a man or have an Inquisitor get a Culexus if your hatred for the witch boils over. Use the Armor of contempt strategem if it's your LRC tanking the mortal wounds.

 

As for generating our own mortal wounds, never forget the Orbital Bombardment, Hellfire Rounds and Flakk Missile strategems. In several games they have been very useful to finish something problematic off, and opponents don't expect it. A well placed Orbital against me wrecked my advance, and in another I used one to great effect on a mobbed up blob of Death Guard. It's a gamble that can pay off in the right circumstance. If you can statistically hit at least 3 units or several characters with it, it can be worth the risk of doing nothing.

 

Once you start to succeed at killing things, it can be easy to forget your objectives. As always, make sure you stay focused on the mission. Even huge losses in your units can lead to victory if you just play the mission.

 

I can post some of my findings on specific units if you like. This is pretty much becoming a full blown tactica at this point.

 

TL;DR This is my analysis of playing OG (non primaris) Black Templars in 8th edition. We are swimming against the current. We can triumph but it requires some adaptation and leveraging of what we do well plus playing the mission in order to succeed. Make Dorn proud!

[Firepower]

The more detail the better, brother.  Unit assessments, list outlines, the works, if you should find the time and patience.  What you've provided there is already insightful. :tu:

[JAG Templar]

Yep, nicely put Ebon. I think this is most pragmatic response yet with some great practical advice.

 

How are you shielding your CC dreadnoughts from AT fire? With the Chaplain dread it’s easy because of CHARACTER but a foot slogging Ironclad would be quite a juicy target. Or are you dropping them in?

[Ebon Hand]

I've found that my Dreadnoughts don't take that much heat with a Land Raider and 2 Predators on the table. If the enemy has anti tank they are much more often worried about those. Between using LOS blockers to limit fire, popping smoke launchers while advancing, and running it bare bones for cheapness, it seems like people haven't prioritized mine too much until it gets close.

 

I'm a bit weird in that I've taken to running a bare bones regular Dreadnought with stock assault cannon and powerfist/storm bolter. I pretty often get the charge on something and do some work with that fist. I'm gonna start trying to fit in an upgrade to venerable as hitting on 2+ would be pretty nice for consistency. A regular Dreadnought can indeed whiff sometimes but Wisdom of the Ancients helps. I also recently acquired a Contemptor which on paper seems like the best Dreadnought of all with its high movement value and extra wounds.

 

I haven't ever dropped Dreads in, but I could see the value of that especially with an Ironclad or Venerable, or if long range anti tank on mobile sources (like flyers or Dark Eldar) are prevalent in your area.

 

Instead, I use my Dreadnought on foot to discourage monsters from charging my firebase and supporting them if the Marshal has to go punch things, which usually consist of a couple of small shooting crusader squads. It's easy to work the heavy bolter and missile launcher in them to get the option for those mortal wounds. Sometimes I use my infantry to shield him from cc and counter charge with him depending on the mission or threats I'm facing.

 

My lists are still evolving as I need to be able to handle heavy infantry. Death Guard especially give me trouble as high strength shooting is what you want to damage them, but my list only has 3 assault cannons and S4 weight of fire. Death Guard can simply out last me in cc while their constant mortal wound generation wear me down. A Contemptor will help here I think.

[Firepower]

I've only ever deployed Ironclads with pods, but I don't have especially threatening armor to take eyes away from them beyond the LRC and Vindicators. People have figured out the Vindicators are easily ignored.

 

On the Contemptor, one important factor is the decreasing stat line. It's a trade off for improved durability, but you'll definitely notice it after an unlucky shooting phase gives it a good beating.

 

If I had a third Dread, I'd definitely make it a Chaplain. :tu: Though I feel his melee buff is rather poor, since models have to be attacking the same target rather than a basic 6 inch aura.

[Ebon Hand]

My dreadnought analysis:

 

I think of them in terms of these upgrade trees.

 

Dreadnought -> Venerable Dread 

               ->Chaplain Venerable Dread

 

Contemptor -> Relic Contemptor

 

Ironclad                     -> Leviathan

Siege Dreadnought

 

Relic Deredeo

 

 

The original Castraferrum pattern Dreadnought seems to have fallen out of favor with many people who are recommend the Venerable instead.  I can understand this since the Dreadnought's ballistic skill goes down when he moves.  This is a problem if you need a Dreadnought that you want as fire support on the move.  This is why I run it as cheap as possible; all I need from him is his close combat capability and the assault cannon has a good rate of fire to help with the heavy weapon penalty.  In cc, he doesn't suffer a penalty and with S12 and solid 3 damage, he can do some good work on a variety of targets.   Usually only failing only when you roll a 2, he's just as good as a Venerable dread for this purpose, especially if you are running chaplains or a chapter master.

 

As a side note on this entry, the reason I run it is because I was finding that my Venerable was a bit overkill.  The ballistic skill wasn't helping vs characters and demon princes where I needed a powerful cc attack and my Predator annihilator has been doing the brunt of my anti tank lifting making the venerable redundant.  I think its important to examine how your units are performing in order to trim points wherever you can, even on units that seem like no brainers like the venerable.

 

Still, for only 20 pts more, you can make it Venerable Dreadnought gaining the Unyielding Ancient ability which increases your survivability by about 16%.  With 8 wounds, you could expect to shrug off at least 1 damage statistically.  We all know dice don't necessarily follow the math though; it could do nothing, or it could shrug off several damage in one turn which can throw a pretty severe wrench into your opponent's plans.  For those 20 points you also gain better ballistic skill and weapon skill.  This is what you want if you are looking to advance while laying accurate firepower with lascannons, plasma or a multi melta.  Your close combat becomes much more reliable as well and you won't necessarily need any characters to buff you as he can buff himself with Wisdom of the Ancients.

 

The Chaplain Venerable is special in that he gains a 5+ Inv, Character status, and his ability which increases strength of anyone attacking enemies engaged with him. Its a solid ability for a close combat army considering strength bonuses and to wound bonuses are harder to get in the game.  The character ability and invulnerable save are pretty straightforward upgrades and I don't need to explain how amazing they can be. This comes at a cost of 30 pts over the Venerable, or 50 over the Dreadnought.  He can fulfil the same role as a Venerable but with extra perks which are valuable to close combat armies.  Some things to keep in mind is that Character means he can have a relic, warlord trait, and Honor Guard / Company Veterans can bodyguard for him.

 

I'll continue adding more as time allows :)

[Firepower]

If only the Chaplain Dread's buff was an aura instead of tied to his combat.  The Templar Hat on him would be immensely powerful

 

Ever try his super flamer?  It sounds very Templar, but it seems counterproductive in a way in that it would do a very good job of removing models in nearby squads, most likely increasing the range he'll have to roll to charge them.  On the other hand...fire + heretic = typical Templar recreation.

 

Still, a Dreadnought with bodyguards sounds..weird.  Sure, in fluff the Dreadnoughts are iconic heroes and super duper important and yadda yadda, but just the image of a walking tank needing a man to jump in front of a sword seems silly

[Ebon Hand]

I've thought about it and sadly the inferno cannon seems ill suited for the Chaplain Venerable. It's just so short range and it feels like you are wasting his brilliant BS. 35 pts is a bit steep for random shot 8 inch weapon as well... If only it was assault.

 

A twin linked autocannon would be a couple points cheaper and arguably better for a -1 AP 2 dam weapon, although the Chaplain can't take this option. Alas, I opted for the twin linked lascannon for my Chaplain, but the other options aren't bad either. If you want a cheaper Chaplain Dread (keep in mind he's competing against other mc characters!) the Multi-melta is a good choice if you want to bring fiery ruin to the foe. His character status will often let him get close.

 

If aggressive infantry mobs like gaunts, poxwalkers, orks etc were prevalent, inferno cannon with heavy flamer could be the way to go for blunting those types of charges, but with our army I can't see that being a huge issue... at least in my area. I love me some xenos charging into my blades!

 

Usually you want to be protecting the warlord with your Honor Guard, but if your Chaplain Dread is the Warlord or you need extra ablative wounds fighting a big nasty who will gun for him, that's how you should think of Honor Guard. At 26 points each and 2 wounds, they're basically Initiate cost if you split the wounds, but with a free 2+ save and power axe. Think of the Honor Guard as watching his vulnerable back parts by fighting close to his side. The Chaplain Dreadnought should be taking most of his damage up close anyway. Dive in front of a melta to keep your giant hate machine safe if you must! He's far too valuable to the chapter!

[AlmightyWalrus]

I'm going to be the party-pooper and say that no, it cannot be done. Excepting Assault Terminators all our melee units are essentially worse Khorne Berzerkers (seriously, you could give all of our units the "Fights twice" trait Berzerkers have for free and still be worse than Berzerkers, with the exception of Vanguard with double chainswords which would be roughly equal to Berzerkers) and Berzerkers aren't exactly tearing up the meta at the moment. They see play because they can infiltrate through the Alpha Legion stratagem and get into melee on turn one reliably while also packing a serious wallop.

 

We have no way of reliably getting into melee on turn one (a slightly above 50/50 chance for one Deep Striking unit when saving a CP for reroll is not reliable). Even if we did, our melee units hit like wet noodles, with the exception of double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans, who hit like deep-frozen broccoli. We have some of the best special characters in the book (seriously, Helbrecht is a steal and the Emperor's Champion is pretty good for his points too) but nothing for them that is worthwhile buffing that Guilliman wouldn't do better.

 

Just to put the Berzerkers in perspective: 10 Berzerkers perform better in combat than a 10/10 Crusader Squad backed by Helbrecht, assuming everyone but Helbrecht gets to swing. Helbrecht alone is as expensive as the 10 Berzerkers.

[Schlitzaf]

If you consider Vangaurd above average, Crusader Squads have the same net damage output. And second, we can get into the mathmatical arguments of Khorne Berzerkers vs Melee Units. But average tide Squad is 13-15 Man. And second Helbrect shouldn’t be with Crusaders he hanging with Non-Terminators Veterans whom can fit in his aura. But that is just the mathmatical side.

 

Berzerkers are some of the push units in game bar none. Crusader Squads are mix between anchor and push. At 180-200ish Points. You bring 15 wounds to the board. Unlike Berzerkers who become combat ‘negligible’ earlier, around 3-4 models. Crusaders require roughly double that damage to do so.*

 

We aren’t gonna out damage Berzerkers. But unlike Zerkers we can take the initial hit. Only losing 3-5 models and then swing back at appreciable combat strength. Zerkers are push units, nothing more, nothing less. Vangaurd are Bully(Support)/Push, and our Crusaders are anchor/Push. It’s a mistake I make myself, but it’s important one of my best traits is our ability to hold ground and withstand enemy shooting/charges. We don’t need to be an aggressor

 

*Combat Neglible is when a single MSU DoublePlasma, BolterBro Squad can kill a Unit. At 3-4 models (beside Intercessors), a MSU Double Plasma puts out 3ish wounds. Before charging.

[Firepower]

What I'm hearing is "Don't charge Berzerkers." Sound advice. :teehee:

 

I don't see the whole endeavor as futile just because other codices have more dangerous melee specialists. Now, if I ended up putting my army up against one made entirely of melee specialists, yes, I'm gonna have a bad day. Luckily thus far, I've yet to meet someone in my meta as eager to get into melee as I am...but I haven't fought Orks yet. ;)

[Schlitzaf]

On the contrary firepower you should charge Zerkers. You shouldn’t get charged. 24ish attacks > 16 hits > 8 wounds. 2.66 + 3 > 2 > 0.84 = 3.47. Shooting Pistols + Specials. 12 > 8 > 4 = 1.33 + 2 > 1 > 0.5 > 1.7 = 1.5. Then Specials (Flamer, 7 > 3.5 > 1.17, Plasma, 4 > 2.66 > 1.8 > 1.5). Or just under 6. Dead Battleshocking killing another 2 Zerkers.

 

You don’t want to be charged by Berzerkers. But if we get the charge, we will (normally) reduce a mighty 10 Berzerker Squad down to 2-3 Man. Likewise if we can get interrupt. Between Overwatching and our attacks we can kill 3-5 Berzerkers. And characters such as basic Marshall + Castallen, each add give or take one more casualty.

 

If you fight Zerkers have two points to interrupt or be the one charging. Basically, if we can hit first we can reduce the Zerkers numbers down significantly. And then battle shock kill the rest.