Old Fart versus New World; an Ongoing Saga

[Firepower]

Schlitz, beyond choosing an optimal gun or stabby thing, I really detest mathhammer.  

 

Anyway, the point was you're better off shooting elite stabby things when possible, rather than charging.  

 

I will agree with you Walrus, that our Crusaders don't hit very hard.  I've struggled with that first hand several times now.  That said, there are easy ways to buff them via Castellans, Marshals, etc.  Helbrecht, while a beast, is not always the answer, especially when you're talking about Deep Strike first turn assaults.  The Champion, on the other hand, is cheap enough to almost always take.  He doesn't help buff anybody, but he is a beast.

 

Terminators and Dreads are the heavy hitters for that 1st turn charge job.  In fact, while you pointed to Assault Terminators, I would argue that podded Ironclads are on the whole more dangerous.  Even if they don't make that turn 1 charge, they can unload with Hurricanes, Meltas and Hunter Killers on their arrival, while Terminators can be left twisting in the wind and hoping units don't move out of charge range or blast them off the board before their next turn.  Although yes, our charge reroll does not mean Deep Strike assault is something that can be counted on alone.  The dice giveth, and the dice taketh away.  I had one game where every one of my Deep Strikers failed to charge, while my opponent dropped 4 terminator units and made every single charge without the benefit of rerolls.  I've had other games where fortune swings the other direction.  It's not a solid strategy, but it's a fun one.

 

All that said, I don't agree that Guilliman and Berzerkers should be the standard bar to meet.  I already pointed out that looking to beat super optimized 8th edition lists is a pipe dream for a pure old school Templar army.  I'm not especially concerned with that.  I do not play in tournaments.  If the G Man is the bar, then there's no point to Raven Guard, Scars, Salamanders or any other Chapter in the book.  I've seen Raven armies that would disprove that theory alone.  The same goes for Berzerkers being the bar for melee.  They are a specialized unit, while Crusader Squads are a utility squad.  It's like saying "Don't try to build a fast list unless you play Eldar."

 

As eager as I am to test some of the lists here, sadly I lack a lot of the necessary models.  Guess I'll just have to keep working with what I got to fight the good fight, while expanding my paltry model supply bit by bit with my usual fits-and-starts painting routine.  Now, if someone could make a powerful list out of the models I have, that would be impressive, but it's not the point of this thread. 

[SydonianDragoon404]

@Almighty Walrus this is why I've been experimenting with Blood Angel units. I've seen the raw power of things like Death Company and Sanguinary Guard with the proper stratagem support. They are exactly what I've been looking for rules wise. Unless something massive changes with the March FAQ, I'll likely continue to do so. This is of course when playing against opponents who have an optimized force. Right now, Black Templar melee feels like a power maul. It has its uses and isn't to be trifled with. Blood Angel melee feels like a Relic Blade being shot out of a cannon. 

[Firepower]

I do envy our scarlet cousins' power in a scrap, no doubt.  I'm happy they finally have the hitting power they always should have.  Although that doesn't help much with this topic, and I don't have the resources to start a new army

 

Again, my solution to making my army work is not to play someone else's army.

[Schlitzaf]

How many people would believe me if I said “you can fight Zerkers”. I use MathHammer because folks don’t believe me I found otherwise. If nothing else out of that post, all I was trying to say. If you fight Zerkers make sure you have either two command points to interrupt, or you are the charger.

 

But that is fair, and I agree with that. Proper tool for proper job. Also I just want to take your point a bit further FP. The actual comparable unit in C:CSM is Chaos Marines and Raptors. In both cases it’s no contest whose better those in engagement.

[AlmightyWalrus]

You're right, the Chaos ones are much better. When it comes to melee, a CSM squad is effectively 10 points more expensive than an equivalent Crusader Squad but gets our Chapter Tactic on top of a Legion Tactic. That's not to our advantage at all. The same applies to any unit that gets an Icon. Raptors are also able to take plasma guns, unlike our Assault Marines.

The reason I brought up Khorne Berzerkers is because they ARE a reasonable goal to compare to, because it's the level of power you need to be at to work as a melee unit. I don't know Blood Angels well enough to do a comparison with Death Company.

Yes, you'd have five spare wounds over the Berzerkers in a Crusader squad, but they're five scouts; they die like flies. The massively more powerful melee of the Berzerkers more than makes up for a slight bump in durability.

 

With the negativity out of the way: Inside the confines that you've specified, I'd recommend two units: Relic Contemptors and (Command Squad) Sword Brethren.

 

Relic Contemptors with 2x twin-Lascannons are, in my mind, a straight upgrade from laspredators. Sure, you're a little more expensive and you can't use the Killshot stratagem, but you've got a 2+ save, an Invulnerable save, and BS2+ (and better melee, but if your shooty dread is in melee something's gone wrong). Since you like running Ironclads the Relic Contemptors also slot nicely into providing target saturation, as they generally take the same kind of weapons as Ironclads to handle.

 

Command Squad Sword Brethren with Chainsword and Storm Bolter because it's a unit that's actually decent at pumping out S4 hits. With 4 shots per model and 3 attacks each they're a generalist unit that actually has enough output to leverage its generalist potential to some extent. There's also several advantages to running them with Relic Contemptors, as the Command Squad is an Elite choice and thus lets you bring more Relic Contemptors. They can also be ran as a 4-man squad if you need space for a Character in a transport, such as if you're squeezing multiple units into one Drop Pod and want to bring a Lieutenant Castellan.

 

I'll probably get a paddlin' for this, but I'd try to not run any melee Crusader Squads at all; take Scout Squads or Lasplas Crusaders as troops and focus on getting Vanguard Veterans or Command Squads on the field to do your melee-ing.

[Schlitzaf]

.....

Your discounting our neophytes entirely aren’t you. We have the best tactical squad variant in the game bar Grey Hunters whom we are equal with bar none.

[AlmightyWalrus]

Yes, I'm discounting Neophytes because Blobs aren't good melee units. We have the best Tactical-equivalent because we can min-max shooting weapons in 5-man squads, not because they're good at melee (because they aren't).

 

Plus, CSM can have up to 20 Marines in a unit anyway, no?

[Schlitzaf]

Blob Squads are good melee Units. I did a full analysis elsewhere so I will spare you the details. But offensively a tide squad is the same output as a Vangaurd Squad. And frankly if you take your saves properly the difference between a 4+ and 3+ is inconsequential

[AlmightyWalrus]

And a Vanguard Squad is cheaper with a smaller footprint needed to get everything into combat.

 

Crusader Squads just aren't good melee units. Berzerkers are good melee units, Bloodletters are good melee units, Death Company is a good melee unit.

 

You're right that the difference between a 4+ and a 3+ isn't that big. I said that Scouts die like flies; they do. So do Marines, just slightly less so. Extra MEQ wounds is nowhere near enough to outweigh the massively bigger offensive potential of the Berzerkers.

[Schlitzaf]

Vangaurd and Crusader Squads cost exactly the same only difference is footprint. But Crusaders lose less offensive potential per wound lost.

[AlmightyWalrus]

What? 10x Vanguard Veterans is significantly cheaper than the 10/10 Crusader Squad you'd have to run to get the same amout of attacks. You'd get almost 5 extra Vanguard Veterans for the cost of the additional bodies in a Crusader Squad.

[Schlitzaf]

You never take 20 Man. You should take 13-15 Man. The squad should come to be around 200 Points give or take. 20 Man way too unwieldy. 13-15 Man is about the right number. You’ll be 20-30 more Points more expensive than than equivalent Vangaurd, but is you paying for your specials and double power weapon

[AlmightyWalrus]

15-man is still more points than 10 Vanguard for less attacks even without upgrades.

[Schlitzaf]

You get literally same number of attacks. Vangaurd get 4 STR 4 AP - attacks at 18. Or 4.25 Points an attack. No pack Vangaurd get you 4 Points an attack.

Crusader assuming equal Ini-Neo Ratio gets you 6 STR 4 AP - attacks at 24. Or 4 Points an attack. They put out mathmatically the same number of attacks if you stick to equal Ini-Neo.

 

It’s also why sub 13 Man Crusaders should stick to BolterBros. You need larger Squads for the Points to add up. As your essentially paying “12” Points a Marine. At 12-13 Man. You get you a free Marine. Vangaurd and Crusaders point for point put out the exactly same number of attacks.

[AlmightyWalrus]

Bolt Pistol shots aren't attacks. Shooting on the turn you plan on charging is potentially disastrous as it can increase the distance you have to charge. You also only get to use your Bolt Pistol in half the Fight phases, compared to getting your extra attack every turn.

 

I'll concede that in perfect conditions with everything stacked in favour of the Crusader Squad they have the same output as Vanguard Veterans.

[Schlitzaf]

Yes but you got to be in combat to use chainswords. Crusaders can start shooting out of optimal charge range. I prefer my melee to have Pistols/Chain for that reason. But that is another discussion entirely

[AlmightyWalrus]

On another note, I thought Dreads couldn't ride in Pods any longer, how are you Podding in Dreads? FW Pods?

[Schlitzaf]

Yep and 5 points cheaper

[Ebon Hand]

I think Schlitzaf has a point here. Assuming chainswords on everyone and not counting bolt pistols, Crusaders are still very close to vanguard in damage output and they lose less output per wound lost. This is really handy for mortal wounds; you just take neophytes down.

 

As a side note on bolt pistols, I shoot them in most circumstances. There's only 6 turns to a game so you need every wound you can get. With our charge rerolls and the fact that you only need to be within 1 inch to make your charge, I've been finding in 8th it's a rare case where a few casualties will ruin your charge. Of course if it's possible for your charge to get ruined then you definitely might have to skip the shooting.

 

However, if you really need that enemy charged, there better be other units trying for the charge as well!

 

Vanguards shouldn't be just chainswords though, unless you are giving them jump packs to get a chainsword unit into a good position. I've come to see Vanguards as your unit for generating quality attacks by leveraging all their special weapon options.

 

They fight like cheaper Terminators and with Storm shields they make good hunters for enemy units with high rend, multi damage attacks where the same points in Terminators would falter.

 

On the topic of the Berserkers, this goes back to my point about us being a shooting codex with specific advantages. Berserkers and Crusaders don't exist in a vacuum. Chaos lack invulnerable saves comparable to our and they lack the Land Raider options we have. They have different relics.

 

Charge the Berserkers with Crusaders if you must, but nothing is saying you have to fight fair. Charge them with Terminators or a Dreadnought instead! Receive their charge with a tough unit and intervention in characters or charge them back next turn. Be crafty with your close combat tactics. Make their strong cc units fight things they aren't great at fighting while your Crusaders charge a lone character or some cultists or just support your hard hitters. The thing about Berserkers is that they're very predictable and their threat range is simply their charge range. Plan on ways to deal with them.

 

I worry more about powerful deep striking shooting units like Obliterators or Exalted Flamers. The only thing you can do to stop those is have proper positioning, something that is as much an art as a science.

[Schlitzaf]

Aye, also that reminds me of a list I want to try, a Crusader-Dread Bro. You have 3-4 Crusaders Squads, two tides and two firefight in Rhino. Each supported by a Dreadnought. It run about 1650ish. So leaving 350 for other things. If you only run two Dreads, you could run 2 Terminator Squads leaving you with 200 Points. Perhaps a third tide squad or two MSU Devie?

 

So here the list

HQ

Marshall

Castallen

Champion

TechMarine

 

Elites

3x Dread or VenDread

Cenos

 

Troops

2x Tide Crusaders (200 each)

2x Firefight Crusaders (150 Each)

 

Heavy

2x Predators (Auto/Bolter)

Heavy Worth 90ish Points or 3rd Predator if not VenDread

 

Transports

2x Rhinos

 

7-8 CP.

[Firepower]

It seems like Dreads are really center stage units for this sort of list.  They're popping up quite a lot, but in rather wildly varying roles and armaments.

[Firepower]

Another interesting idea.  Doesn't really have a lot of heavy hitters, but a ton of S4 output:

 

Battalion+Vanguard

 

Emperor's Champion

Chaplain with Fancy Hat

8 Company Veterans with Storm Bolters/Chainswords

Pod

 

Helbrecht

15 body Crusader Squad

LRC

 

2 Tide squads of 14

 

2 Ironclads in Pods

 

Really, it feels like just making an excuse to Pod the Champion...but it sounds cool.  And obviously extremely dependent on making the 9" charge on the drop as well...but at least everything that deep strikes can still shoot.  On that note, Sternguard would probably be better than Company Vets for that particular job.  Deep Strike, Masterful Marksmanship, and then a charge for funsies if possible.

 

Of course there are so few bodies on the board to start with that blocking Deep Strikes will be impossible.

[Schlitzaf]

My only fear FP is only 1 LRC. And one LRC is a destroyed or disable LRC. But Dreadnoughts are cheap and solid firesupport. Able to soak wounds and deal an average 2 Dead MeQ a turn. (1.66 for those who want to get pedantic). And then provide cheap MidField Dakka as Assault or Heavy Bolters they fill “Fire Support” and “Counter Assault”. Also at 130-150 they are cheap enough that you can easily field 3-4 for Target saturation. And looking at your list.

 

If it this wasn’t simply you trying to cleverly use your own models I’d drop the raider for a second Pod Bomb. And just an aside, Company Vets only go to 5 Man. Looking at that list here what I’d do, drop the LRC. Add 4th Pod with 2 4 Man Man Company or 1 8 Man Stern. Giving you 50ish Points to spend. Oh and throw Cenos in their too for the tide Squads.

 

Perhaps using 50-60ish extra points for the a Castallen fo throw into the pods.

 

So rewritten

HQ

Helbrect

Castallen w/ Teeth or Primarch’s Wrath

FancyHat Chaplain or Marshall

Champion

 

Elites

2x Ironclod

2x 8 Man Stern or 4x 4 Man Company

Cenos

 

Troops

3x 14 Man Tide

 

Dedicated

2x DreadPods

2x Pods

[Firepower]

Yup, I know Vets have small squads.   That 8 was from 2 squads of 4.

 

And yes, that was mostly me just working with what I have in my arsenal (barring Sternguard, but easily proxied).  I actually might be able to run that list you substituted in.  I have a 4th Pod, but it's painted up for my old Broken Arrows.  I could always say the Templars just borrowed it

 

Helbrecht with Sternguard and Masterful Marksmanship would certainly be a brutal bomb, and toss in the Champion for giggles.

[Schlitzaf]

Topic of chaff, bodies and flankers. The main reason for a to run flankers so that well...can stay a tide. If a 10 Man group of scions strikes behind or next to you. Having to dedicate a tide squad to kill them is problematic to say the least. So we don’t need bodies or flankers to stop strike murder. But more we have need a squad we can dedicate to counter striking. Which Stern or Company could do this in scenerio. Two 4 man Company would allow that easier than 1 8 Man Stern