How many CPs do we actually need?

[Fahlnor]

Hey all,

 

I remember having a brief conversation on this forum a while back about Command Points and how to determine how many of them we need. I thought it might be worth bringing it to the wider community and seeing what the general mood is.

 

Most discussions about Command Points seem to revolve around how we can get as many as possible and an assumption that we are astonishingly thirsty for CPs throughout our games. What I'd like to know is: if you were to strip them down and pare them back, how many would you be able to get away with and what would your priority be for using Stratagems?

 

Let's assume a minimum of six Command Points - whether via a Battalion or a collection of eg. Vanguard/Spearhead detachments, six CPs should be pretty simple to get hold of. What are your priorities for spending them? Alternatively, what Stratagems do you think are absolutely necessary to the army and how do you go about getting enough Command Points to use them all?

[Panzer]

Priorities for 6 CP?

1 CP for a second Relic. Probably the banner.

1 CP so Captain Smash gets +1 Attack from Death Visions of Sanguinius.

2 CP for Descent of Angels.

2 CP for 2x Red Rampage.

 

I'd love to have more tho for Upon Wings of Fire+Descent of Angels shenanigans, Kill shot, Honor the Chapter/Only in Death does Duty end and Hellfire Shells. So even if I add all those things only once to the list it'd be 10 additional CP.

 

tl;dr

We really do need all the CP we can get our hands on since we burn through them faster than probably anyone else out there.

[Karhedron]

Don't forget the odd reroll to get you out of a whole. Mephiston rolled snake-eyes vs small arms fire yesterday which was just plain embarrassing.

 

It seems to me that Stratagems (and the CPs that fuel them) make the difference between BAs being OK and being great. They really need those Strats to be competitive against a lot of armies out there.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

6 isn't enough. Not nearly =)

 

For discussion and also oddly the battalion only 1750 game I am playing Friday.

1 - Armoury of Baal Relic (Angel's Wing plus Standard of Sacrifice)

2 - Forlorn Fury (or DC Descent of Angels)

2 - Descent of Angels (Sang Guard)

1 - Upon Wings of Fire (for DC if going 2nd or needed to zaap the big Hellblaster squad I am expecting perhaps... redeploy etc otherwise)

Edited February 21, 2018 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Explorer1]

Agree with sfPanzer. The latest version of my list has a guard brigade with the CP Miner, a Custodes Supreme Command detachment and a BA Battalion. It starts with 16 CPs. In the last w games I’ve used all of them.

 

Now, to be fair that’s a little extreme, and I use 5 before the game begins (2 relics on the shield captains, and Death Visions and Wings on captain JumpSmash), but it lets me spend “freely” on things like Descent of Angels, red rampage and honour the chapter. In effect it lets me drop the Death Company and Lemartes one turn, and Captain Jump Smash on a different turn, and use all three strategems twice and, depending on how successful the miner is, I usually have “extra” CPs for re-rolls, and on wings of fire.

 

But, how many to we NEED...... depends on your list. If you have a unit that needs to charge and inflict maximum damage from deep strike, you need 2 for Descent of angles. If that unit it Captain JumpSmash, he really needs 6 for maximum benefit by himself (Descent, Red Rampage, and maybe Honour the Chapter).

 

It’s a balance between the benefits of CPs, and the “tax” one needs to take to generate those CP. For example, rather than take Guard to generate more CPs to make captain JumpSmash more effective, you could use the points to take a second captain.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Explorer1

[Explorer1]

Sorry, should have said, I’m taking this list to it’s first tournament this weekend, so I’ll report back on whether 16 CPs is too many!!

[Crimson Ghost IX]

I have been thinking about that 2nd capt with hammer alot lately too.

Maybe one is the replacement captain sent to replace Banguinius the Lost. =)

[Diagramdude]

I think this question will be difficult to nail down because stratagems are reactive by nature. With Blood Angels I think its always the more CP the better because we are uniquely able to convert tons of CP into an awe-inspiring amount of raw damage.

[Kappel]

Unlimited for the first two turns would be my answer.

 

I know that sounds a bit silly. But I think Blood Angels can be really-really good, when we plan for maximum impact the first two turns. We actually have an army that is tailored to hit like a nuclear bomb. I am trying to secure this, by allowing myself the use of a lot of CP's the first two turns.

 

I re-roll everything I can.

I use 2 points on forlorn fury if that makes sense.

I use Descent of Angels in both turn one and two.

I have several relics and a DC captain.

If necessary I would also like to be able to fight twice with honour the chapter and maybe only in death does duty ends. 

 

I usually use 10-15 CP's the first two turns this way.

 

I can do this pretty comfortably with a Brigade and a CP-miner.

 

In friendly games I limit myself to a brigade with Veritas Vitae, which means I run out of CP's at the end of turn two, if I roll bad. So I plan for this, and will typically be a bit more conservative with my rerolls. 

[Panzer]

Unfortunately a Brigade is barely doable for a Primaris army at 2k points. :D

[superwill]

Depends how many points you're talking too, but 2 examples from this week. One game I had 8 CPs, Kurov's Aquila and Grand Strategist which came out to probably 11ish CPs in the end. It was enough, but there were plenty of times where I would have liked and benefitted greatly from having more. Tonight I took the same but with the Veritas Vitae, ended up with the equivalent of maybe 14 CPs and to be honest it still felt like there were a whole heap of missed opportunities. I never swung twice, I didn't use FF. If I'm taking death company I always try and save 2 for their morale (so sad that they are such scaredy-cats in 8th...) and coz I run sisters cross BA I like to save 1CP for Celestine's animation.

 

Anyway, I tabled him on turn two (we're prepping for a tourney so my army was pretty brutal) but I had no trouble burning through 14ish CPs even in those two short turns.

 

TLDR for a competitive army, I can't imagine having less than 8.

 

Edit: at the risk of having what I believe is an almost broken combo ruined, for my fellow BA brothers I think it's worth sharing. Grand strategist + VV is just absurd. On a 1 CP stratagem you have a 66% chance of keeping your CP... That means for every 3 you spend, you'll only lose one on average. It essentially triples your CP pool! So essentially, 8 CPs become 24!!! Of course, it's a little less than that for 2+ CP strats but you're still a really good chance to break even since you get 3 dice. The VV is not as good as some of the WL traits individually, but the incredible thing about it is that as a Relic it can STACK with the WL traits! In comparison, just having SC as your WL trait turns your 8 CPs into 12ish. (12 with 1/3 refunded is 8, whereas 24 with 2/3 refunded is 8). So the combination of the two together is just obscene.

Edited February 21, 2018 by superwill

[Kappel]

Unfortunately a Brigade is barely doable for a Primaris army at 2k points.

Who talked about Primaris marines 

[Panzer]

 

Unfortunately a Brigade is barely doable for a Primaris army at 2k points.

Who talked about Primaris marines 

 

I did just then. :P

[Brother Crimson]

The big deal is that with CP you can have "extra turns" of assault.

 

If you want reliable charges you would normally have to wait to position yourself or rely on unreliable charges.

With descent of angels DC will *almost* always charge out of deep strike with Lemartes. Honour the chapter gives an extra fight. So with 5 CP you get "free turns" for assault.

 

So for me:

Descent of Angels for DC  (2)

Death company HQ (1)

Red Rampage X2 (2) + Spare reroll for critical roll (1) OR Honour the chapter (3)

[Morticon]

I need 10+

 

Turn 2 and 3 (usually) Descent of Angels.

Wings of Fire at some point, usually. 

Extra Relic 

Constant use of hellfire shells.  

[Blackcadian]

Depends how many points you're talking too, but 2 examples from this week. One game I had 8 CPs, Kurov's Aquila and Grand Strategist which came out to probably 11ish CPs in the end. It was enough, but there were plenty of times where I would have liked and benefitted greatly from having more. Tonight I took the same but with the Veritas Vitae, ended up with the equivalent of maybe 14 CPs and to be honest it still felt like there were a whole heap of missed opportunities. I never swung twice, I didn't use FF. If I'm taking death company I always try and save 2 for their morale (so sad that they are such scaredy-cats in 8th...) and coz I run sisters cross BA I like to save 1CP for Celestine's animation.

 

Anyway, I tabled him on turn two (we're prepping for a tourney so my army was pretty brutal) but I had no trouble burning through 14ish CPs even in those two short turns.

 

TLDR for a competitive army, I can't imagine having less than 8.

 

Edit: at the risk of having what I believe is an almost broken combo ruined, for my fellow BA brothers I think it's worth sharing. Grand strategist + VV is just absurd. On a 1 CP stratagem you have a 66% chance of keeping your CP... That means for every 3 you spend, you'll only lose one on average. It essentially triples your CP pool! So essentially, 8 CPs become 24!!! Of course, it's a little less than that for 2+ CP strats but you're still a really good chance to break even since you get 3 dice. The VV is not as good as some of the WL traits individually, but the incredible thing about it is that as a Relic it can STACK with the WL traits! In comparison, just having SC as your WL trait turns your 8 CPs into 12ish. (12 with 1/3 refunded is 8, whereas 24 with 2/3 refunded is 8). So the combination of the two together is just obscene.

Excellent post! I’ve wondered about bringing the VV in addition to the Miner and Angels Wing, if I understand you correctly even thought this would set me back another 2 CP it’s definitely worth it? Who do you give the VV to? All of my characters are front line fighters usually.

 

Also, would you mind sharing your list? I’m currently preparing one for our club tournament in May and as the defending champion I am very interested in all kinds of brutal ideas.

 

Thank you!

 

PS: I love this thread more than any other :D

[The Unseen]

I've been playing with a brigade, with DC captain and 2 relics, for 10 CP at the start; and I rarely make it to turn 3 with any left, even if I don't make the captain go complete ham.

 

Assuming I don't roll any successes on the Veritas, which has happened to me a time or two, this is how it goes.

 

Turn 1 Forlorn Fury or Descent of Angels on DC with lemartes, usually 1 reroll during the psychic phase to ensure I get wings and quickening /unleash rage off on my libby, red rampage on said libby, then honor the chapter if the DC need it.

 

Turn 2 usually Wings of Fire, and another Descent of Angels, which means if I used Honor turn 1 I'm out of CP.

 

If I want captain smash to go ham, I use both Descent and Forlorn Fury turn 1, plus the usual stuff, and honor if whatever the captain charged isn't dead yet for a whopping 10 CP spent in a single turn. (And if your running Veritas, 6 chances to regain 1 on a 5+)

 

I'd agree with the sentiment that I couldn't imagine trying to play above the most casual level with less than 8, since so much of our flavor and power both are tied to our unique strategems.

[superwill]

Excellent post! I’ve wondered about bringing the VV in addition to the Miner and Angels Wing, if I understand you correctly even thought this would set me back another 2 CP it’s definitely worth it? Who do you give the VV to? All of my characters are front line fighters usually.

 

Also, would you mind sharing your list? I’m currently preparing one for our club tournament in May and as the defending champion I am very interested in all kinds of brutal ideas.

 

Thank you!

 

PS: I love this thread more than any other :D

You're welcome man :) As I said, I'm a little hesitant to "spread the word" as I don't really want to see every BA list abusing it and then we lose it. But for you guys I figured I should share the love haha.

 

It's absolutely worth the extra CPs for an extra Relic (especially because depending on when you spend the CPs you can potentially regain them too, RAW).

 

To be completely frank I think it's one thing which has the potential to be our most unique and amazing advantage over the competition. Who else can turn 8 CPs into an AVERAGE of 24? Without the VV I don't know any other way it's possible. And where some armies like Guard would have no use for so many CPs, we could easily use them all on some fantastically game changing (but expensive) strats.

 

My list is not necessarily a perfect use of it, but it has been dominating our tourney practice games and manages to combine my love for gold and wings in the combination of sisters and BA. Here it is:

 

Batallion Detachment:

Celestine & 2 Gemini

IG Company Commander

5 Battle sisters

5 Battle sisters

5 Battle sisters

5 Seraphim with 4 inferno pistols

 

(This detachment is cheaper and maybe better than a BA batallion which gives a good CP base, fits the CC in without removing Red Thirst from anyone, gives me 3 power armoured squads to sit on objectives and Celestine and the Seraphim can both use an Act of Faith to move 24" on turn one, capable of getting right into the action for a turn one or two charge. Not much can keep up with BA, but these girls can. Seraphim are a steal and any opponent who doesn't deal with them will be facing a unit that can shoot in combat or fall back and shoot, and either fires twice per turn at 8 melta shots or moves 24" before shooting, all for only 90 points.)

 

Vanguard:

Captain with thunder hammer and meltagun

11 Death Company with 5 Hammers and 6 bolter/chainswords

8 Sanguinary Guard with 2 axes and 6 swords

Sanguinary Ancient (usually the one who carries VV so the captain can have the Angel's Wing)

 

Outrider:

Mephiston

4 Plasma Inceptors

3 Bolter Inceptors

3 Bolter Inceptors

 

(Usually with my BA I'll drop a big bubble of the 10 Inceptors surrounding the Sanguinary Ancient, with the Sanguinary Guard and Captain all also dropping nearby. Gives everyone re-rolls of 1 to hit and wound, and with 8d3 supercharged plasma shots, 36 heavy bolter shots, 16 angelic boltgun shots and Smash's meltagun the firepower is surprisingly potent. Meph takes Unleash Rage, WoS and Quickening. Turn one he moves up 19" and casts Unleash Rage on either the SG or D.C. The bolter inceptors clear any bubble wrap for the charging SG and DC. After you've alpha struck your opponents face off, they're left to figure out whether to kill your DC, inceptors, SG, Meph, seraphim, Celestine etc but won't have enough firepower to handle it. And with our ability to spend 10 CPs per turn, they probably won't survive a second turn

Edited February 22, 2018 by superwill

[Majkhel]

Don't you fear the Callidus? Still that list looks really capable of looking after itself 

[superwill]

Haha, funnily enough I'm helping a mate design a 12 assassin list and the callidus did occur to me as being a big threat. But in some ways, having so much CP means you can afford to lose some. And as you say, the list can generally handle itself even without the ridiculous number of strats

[Calistarius]

You’re giving the IG Commander the Grand Strategist?

 

Follow up question. Don’t you lose access to faction specific warlord traits and relics when you combine factions into one detachment via shared keywords?

[superwill]

Yep the CC is warlord with Grand Strategist and usually the Aquila.

 

As far as I know the only thing you lose by combining factions in a detachment is your chapter tactics / regiment bonus. Haven't seen anything that says you can't have a specific warlord trait or relic, and lots of lists I've seen online and at tournaments I've attended would be illegal if that is the case.

 

Anywho, didn't mean to hijack the thread just wanted to suggest a great way to triple your CPs :)

Edited February 22, 2018 by superwill

[Kallas]

One thing about that list, specifically, you're not actually getting to regen from 8CP.

 

4CP is being spent pre-game on Death Visions and Armoury of Baal. Grand Strategist requires the Warlord to be "on the battlefield" to be allowed to roll for CP regen, meaning that at least Visions is out and probably Armoury too. So you're actually down to 4CP, which still allegedly becomes 12 (this math I don't quite understand, but I'll take your word for it :P )

Edited February 22, 2018 by Kallas

[redthirst]

Who else can turn 8 CPs into an AVERAGE of 24?

I’m just getting back into the game and am considering options including CP Miner + VV, so I’d be interested in seeing the math behind this statement. As far as I can tell, you’re getting:

 

(1/3 x # of stratagems your opponent uses) + (1/3 x # of stratagems you use) + (1/3 x # of command points you use) = average # of additional command points

 

I’m not sure how that results in 3x command points short of your opponent utilizing a MASSIVE number of stratagems, unless I’m missing something? Don’t mean to sound condescending or anything - I’m genuinely curious since I’ve been gone from the game for so long.

Edited February 22, 2018 by redthirst

[Calistarius]

Yep the CC is warlord with Grand Strategist and usually the Aquila.

As far as I know the only thing you lose by combining factions in a detachment is your chapter tactics / regiment bonus. Haven't seen anything that says you can't have a specific warlord trait or relic, and lots of lists I've seen online and at tournaments I've attended would be illegal if that is the case.

Anywho, didn't mean to hijack the thread just wanted to suggest a great way to triple your CPs :)

Good call! I’ve never ran more than one faction at a time, so this is still new to me. I’ve been looking at ways to put some Custodes and Celestine together. This helps.

 

There’s still a lot of confusion about this on reddit and other places where “pros” hang out. The majority of threads imply you lose access to everything if you combine factions under a single detachment. I reread a few rules I hadn’t in a while and it’s clear now that isn’t the case. I appreciate the clarity.