How many CPs do we actually need?

[Explorer1]

One thing about that list, specifically, you're not actually getting to regen from 8CP.

 

4CP is being spent pre-game on Death Visions and Armoury of Baal. Grand Strategist requires the Warlord to be "on the battlefield" to be allowed to roll for CP regen, meaning that at least Visions is out and probably Armoury too. So you're actually down to 4CP, which still allegedly becomes 12 (this math I don't quite understand, but I'll take your word for it )

 

Interesting  - that's not how I read it. If you deploy the miner first, and then spend the points on the extra relics, you can still use the Miner to get them back. The key is that the Armoury of Ball says it happens "before the battle". My reading is that deployment is "before the battle". So deploy the miner, then spend the points, then start the battle.

[Explorer1]

 

Yep the CC is warlord with Grand Strategist and usually the Aquila.

As far as I know the only thing you lose by combining factions in a detachment is your chapter tactics / regiment bonus. Haven't seen anything that says you can't have a specific warlord trait or relic, and lots of lists I've seen online and at tournaments I've attended would be illegal if that is the case.

Anywho, didn't mean to hijack the thread just wanted to suggest a great way to triple your CPs

Good call! I’ve never ran more than one faction at a time, so this is still new to me. I’ve been looking at ways to put some Custodes and Celestine together. This helps.

 

There’s still a lot of confusion about this on reddit and other places where “pros” hang out. The majority of threads imply you lose access to everything if you combine factions under a single detachment. I reread a few rules I hadn’t in a while and it’s clear now that isn’t the case. I appreciate the clarity.

 

I think you also lose stratagems. For stratagems to work you to have a pure detachment. (Would love to be wrong on this!!)

Edited February 22, 2018 by Explorer1

[Kallas]

My reading is that deployment is "before the battle". So deploy the miner, then spend the points, then start the battle.

That's the crux of it. I'd read it very much the other way.

 

Contrast with something like Forlorn Fury or Strike From The Shadows which says before the first turn (ie, not before the battle).

[Explorer1]

 

My reading is that deployment is "before the battle". So deploy the miner, then spend the points, then start the battle.

That's the crux of it. I'd read it very much the other way.

 

Contrast with something like Forlorn Fury or Strike From The Shadows which says before the first turn (ie, not before the battle).

 

Look at Chapter Approved, p110 under Limits of Command - I used this convince the TO of the Tournament I'm going to this weekend (DM5).

[Kallas]

I'll see you at DM5 :D

 

I disagree with the assessment, but good luck with it!

[Calistarius]

 

 

 

 

Yep the CC is warlord with Grand Strategist and usually the Aquila.

As far as I know the only thing you lose by combining factions in a detachment is your chapter tactics / regiment bonus. Haven't seen anything that says you can't have a specific warlord trait or relic, and lots of lists I've seen online and at tournaments I've attended would be illegal if that is the case.

Anywho, didn't mean to hijack the thread just wanted to suggest a great way to triple your CPs :)

 

Good call! I’ve never ran more than one faction at a time, so this is still new to me. I’ve been looking at ways to put some Custodes and Celestine together. This helps.

There’s still a lot of confusion about this on reddit and other places where “pros” hang out. The majority of threads imply you lose access to everything if you combine factions under a single detachment. I reread a few rules I hadn’t in a while and it’s clear now that isn’t the case. I appreciate the clarity.

I think you also lose stratagems. For stratagems to work you to have a pure detachment. (Would love to be wrong on this!!)

You don’t lose them if you have a pure detachment for that faction. If all you have is mixed then you are correct.

[Explorer1]

I'll see you at DM5

 

I disagree with the assessment, but good luck with it!

 

Cool - I'm the guy running BA with Scions.

[Lysere]

 

 

My reading is that deployment is "before the battle". So deploy the miner, then spend the points, then start the battle.

That's the crux of it. I'd read it very much the other way.

 

Contrast with something like Forlorn Fury or Strike From The Shadows which says before the first turn (ie, not before the battle).

 

Look at Chapter Approved, p110 under Limits of Command - I used this convince the TO of the Tournament I'm going to this weekend (DM5).

 

 

This will very much come down to the tournament. The ITC missions as an example require you to take extra relics before any models hit the table so it wouldn't work in those but it sounds like that's not the case for your tournament.

[superwill]

Yeah, whether you get to roll for CPs spent "before the game" is a little open to debate at the moment. In any case, I am happy with just Grand Strategist and the Veritas Vitae (I would drop both the Aquila and Angel's Wing if need be, though the Aquila will still very likely more than pay for itself). And I'm actually not too fussed on Death Visions, so I'll just make the call pre-game based on how many I think I'll need and how many I'm likely to steal from the Aquila. If I can't afford it I'll leave it out and go in with my full 8 CP.
 

I’m just getting back into the game and am considering options including CP Miner + VV, so I’d be interested in seeing the math behind this statement. As far as I can tell, you’re getting:

(1/3 x # of stratagems your opponent uses) + (1/3 x # of stratagems you use) + (1/3 x # of command points you use) = average # of additional command points

I’m not sure how that results in 3x command points short of your opponent utilizing a MASSIVE number of stratagems, unless I’m missing something? Don’t mean to sound condescending or anything - I’m genuinely curious since I’ve been gone from the game for so long.

 

 

Okay, so the "math" / logic behind the 24 CPs is found on the previous page but I'll do another rundown. And I should say that this is my best attempt to figure out it, but it doesn't quite seem right to me so it may be that I'm off and the whole thing is wrong. But basically, if you spend a CP you'll be rolling 2 dice, each with a 1/3 chance of returning your CP. That means that for each 1CP strategem you have a 2/3 chance of doing it for free, or to put it another way, for every 3 CPs you use you actually only go down 1. So if you have enough to "pay" 8 CPs that means you can actually "spend" 24. Hope that makes sense?

 

Now of course there's an obvious issue with the logic - not all Strategems cost 1CP. Let's say you're using DoA for 2CP, instead of getting to roll 4 dice you only get to roll 3 (Grand Strategist is one dice per CP whereas VV is only one dice per strategem). So you won't quite be tripling your CPs if you're using too many multiple-CP strategems. But this is balanced out by the fact that the Aquila will be farming you extra CPs and each of THOSE CPs can be tripled too.

So let's say you steal 3 with the Aquila, and that because you're using a couple of multi-CP strats, the multiplier is 2.5 instead of 3. That still gives you about 11 x 2.5 = 28 CPs, or if you don't get to roll for Relics of the Chapter then it's 10 x 2.5 = 25 CPs.

 

Again, the math / logic could be way off. Would really love someone to point out why, as I'm currently really banking on this idea!

Edited February 23, 2018 by superwill

[The Unseen]

Only thing your missing to my knowledge is that you can actually gain more than you spend.

Grand Strategist (and Adept of the Codex for ultras) state "refund" CP.

Veritas states "gain" a CP oddly enough.

 

So if you say, spend 1 cp, you roll 2 dice, 1 for GS, 1 for VV, and both come up 5+.

You refund your spent one from GS, and you gain 1 from VV.

[superwill]

Ah, beautiful! I originally thought it worked that way, but then checked GS and decided it didn't. Should've checked VV. I'll edit my previous post :)

[DeadMilkman]

Grand Strategist specifically says it refunds, while both KA and VV say gain a command point.  So you could go over your initial total with the KA or VV.

 

I don't think I would rely on tripling your CP.  GS gets you one in three back.  If you start with 9, that gets you four more.  You get three initially, then one of those three extras gets refunded as well.  VV gets you one in three stratagems, so figure you spend on six stratagems with you initial allotment, that gets you two more.  So you are at +6, not counting KA (acting on your opponents spending), not counting interactions of refunded CPs triggering the the other ability.  I would say doubling your CP is perhaps conservative estimate, but its complicated probabilities with so many interactions. 

 

And while I don't see that this is illegal in any respect, it sure feels illegal to get have both VV and GS returning CP from the same stratagem.  Not that my feelings should stop anybody from playing the game as they see fit!

 

Good gaming!

 

Wes

[superwill]

I think that your version of the calculations assesses the GS and VV individually though (determines how much each brings and adds them together). But rather than additive, the effect is multiplicative. I believe that my version above is a more mathematically correct way of combining the two effects?

I decided to do a little field testing to see whether these numbers are really realistic or not (took about an hour because of writing it all down as I went).

Process used briefly explained here: 

Hidden Content

I began by determing how many CPs I had to work with (it doesn't really matter at what stage of the game you acquire your extra CPs through the Aquila for the purposes of these calculations.) So the first thing I did was roll 9 dice for the first 5 tests and 6 dice for the last 5 tests and added the results to my starting pool of 8CP (to experiment with opponents of various CP numbers). Then I just went and rolled the dice for a 1CP strategem, marking each time I went up, down, or stayed neutral. After each time I'd used 5 1CP strategems I used a single 2 CP strategem to simulate real-game conditions. I rolled until my CP pool hit 0 and had been tracking how many CPs I was using as I went.

Here were the results: 

Hidden Content

5 Tests against an opponent who uses 9 strategems:
Test one - Kurov's Aquila gave +4 CP, I went down in CPs 12 times, up in CPs 3 times, broke even 7 times. I used 19 single CP strategems and 3 double CP strategems, totally 26 CPs used.
Test two - KA +4, went down 18 times up 7 and even 19, used 37 singles and 7 doubles for 51 total.
Test three - KA +3, down 12 up 2 even 14, 24 singles and 4 doubles for 32 total.

Test four - KA +4, down 17 up 6 even 23, 39 singles and 7 doubles for 53 total.
Test five - KA + 3, down 12 up three even 15, 25 singles 5 doubles 35 total.

And 5 more tests against opponents using 6 strategems:
Test 6 - KA +2, down 5 up 1 even 18, 20 singles 4 doubles 28 total.

Test 7 - KA +1, down 3 up 0 even 12, 14 singles 1 double 16 total.

Test 8 - KA +1, down 8 up 1 even 22, 26 singles 5 doubles 36 total.

Test 9 - KA +1, down 5 up 0 even 12, 15 singles 2 doubles 19 total.

Test 10 - KA +2, down 6 up 0 even 13, 17 singles 2 doubles, 21 total.

 

As you can see, I rolled above odds for the first 5 tests and below odds for the last 5 tests on the KA, which definitely impacted the results. But I guess that what it shows is that the numbers really are pretty high!

 

When the opponent is using 9 strats (in my meta, that's not uncommon with CP farming a big deal around here) I averaged spending 39.4 CPs! That's with roughly one 2CP strat per five 1CP strats. When the opponent is using 6 strats I got an average of 24 - still not bad especially considering my rolling wasn't great. Funnily enough that's exactly triple my original CP value, which my calculations had predicted.

Feel free to field test it yourself, would love to see the results!

Edited February 23, 2018 by superwill

[Blackcadian]

Heh, this thread is pretty cool! So I just did some rough maths with numbers closer to what I‘d see on the table (only 7CPs for my opponents), and the VV did in fact pull slightly ahead (although I still have to find a suitable character to put it on).

 

So anyway, I had a funny idea - there’s nothing stopping you from using the re-roll stratagem for, say Kurovs Aquila if you fail the roll. It'd cost you another CP but give you three more chances to gain one and up to three CPs (Kurov re-roll, GS and VV for the used stratagem). And on average you should get at least the one spent back. And mightily annoy your opponent haha!

[superwill]

Haha, love the thinking man but unfortunately that one is actually explicitly forbidden somewhere in an FAQ. I know because I've had the same thought

[tychobi]

More the better. Washing out your list to do it is no fun tho. Really I seem to end up with guard supported by blood angels if I really chase the cp dragon. Exact mix is personal but I think 15+ effective total after vitae aquilla supreme shenanigans would be a reasonable goal to allow our strategies to shine.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Apparently 6 cp is enough after all when facing a similar codex with the same to start anyhow...

Played my 1750pt battalion only beer and pretzels game today.

 

Went 2nd with DC on the table and them taking it on the nose a bit in the open, but still pulled it out and only used my 6cp. 

Well 5, I wiffed my all my Veritas rolls and prolly should have left it home in hindsight since I only used 3 strats - oops.

 

Used

1cp Armoury for the Veritas and Standard.

2cp Insane Bravery on the DC to keep them after losing 9 to shooting and having Lemartes in reserve (oops).

2cp Descent of Angels on the Sanguinary Guard.

1cp Hellfire Shells

 

I played against a respectable Ultramarines force and it was close for the first 2 turns, but I was pulling ahead in ITC points a bit every turn.

(because Blood Angel scouts with shotguns are just damned lucky bastids once in awhile).

 

So we called it before turn 4. Played about 4 hours, but we were not trying to rush really.

 

The smurfs went thru 9-10cp gaining 3 or 4 can't remember exactly during the game.

Spending that I can recall as: 

6cp on Counter Offensive. (more DC wrecking t1, Killed Lemartes before he got a throw t2, and put some Sang Guard down t3).

2cp on Wisdom of the Ancients.

At least 1 maybe it was 2 command re-rolls.

 

Anyhow, data =)

[Explorer1]

Just back from a 6 game tourney. Took a guard brigade (Scions), a BA battalion and a Custodes Supreme Command Detachment - so 16 Command Points. Also took the Guard CP miner. 

 

I finished 5 of 6 games with more than  6 CP's left, spending CP's freely. I spent 5 CP's pre battle every game, and had at least 2 descent's of angels, and 1-2 Honour the Chapter per game. The one game I used all my CP's the Miner's dice were pretty cold. 

 

IMO - 10 CP's with the Miner are about right - so 2 battalions and a guard spearhead detachment (the Miner and 3 units of mortars). If you were being more frugal, could probably get away with 8. However, I expect the March FAQ to restrict the Miner to regenerating CP's for guard only. Will trickier after that.

[superwill]

Explorer, you had the VV too yeah?

[Majkhel]

BA-wise, there was only a smash-Captain (did he had DVoS?), Lemartes, a DC unit and 3 units of scouts in Explorer1's list, unless something has been changed along the way. 
I think in a more BA-heavy list we would be tempted to use more CPs ('cause, why not? :D )
I for once always use the DVoS. In conjunction with Gift of Foresight warlord trait it really helps in his survivability.

[Explorer1]

Explorer, you had the VV too yeah?

 

Nope, just Khurovs Aquilla and Grand Strategist. 

[Explorer1]

BA-wise, there was only a smash-Captain (did he had DVoS?), Lemartes, a DC unit and 3 units of scouts in Explorer1's list, unless something has been changed along the way. 

I think in a more BA-heavy list we would be tempted to use more CPs ('cause, why not? )

I for once always use the DVoS. In conjunction with Gift of Foresight warlord trait it really helps in his survivability.

 

Lisit stayed the same. JumpSmash did use DVofS. The main CP hogs were JumpSmash and the DC. In all busing ut one game I dropped JumpSmash and the DC on different turns, usually using Descent of Angels twice. I also tended to use Honour the Chapter more than once, usually on JumpSmash or Lemartes, and they usually got Red Rampage before that. To be honest, Im not sure what else  Would be using CP's on in a pure BA list.

[Morticon]

Edit: at the risk of having what I believe is an almost broken combo ruined, for my fellow BA brothers I think it's worth sharing. Grand strategist + VV is just absurd. On a 1 CP stratagem you have a 66% chance of keeping your CP... That means for every 3 you spend, you'll only lose one on average. It essentially triples your CP pool! So essentially, 8 CPs become 24!!! Of course, it's a little less than that for 2+ CP strats but you're still a really good chance to break even since you get 3 dice. The VV is not as good as some of the WL traits individually, but the incredible thing about it is that as a Relic it can STACK with the WL traits! In comparison, just having SC as your WL trait turns your 8 CPs into 12ish. (12 with 1/3 refunded is 8, whereas 24 with 2/3 refunded is 8). So the combination of the two together is just obscene.

 

Muchly appreciated, even though a touch late to the party there, bud!!  Discussed in detail in the BA Dex observation thread (and I think elsewhere before that? I think I got the idea from here from Panzer maybe?) 

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/?p=4988242

 

I think that your version of the calculations assesses the GS and VV individually though (determines how much each brings and adds them together). But rather than additive, the effect is multiplicative. I believe that my version above is a more mathematically correct way of combining the two effects?

 

I decided to do a little field testing to see whether these numbers are really realistic or not (took about an hour because of writing it all down as I went).

 

Process used briefly explained here: 

Hidden Content

I began by determing how many CPs I had to work with (it doesn't really matter at what stage of the game you acquire your extra CPs through the Aquila for the purposes of these calculations.) So the first thing I did was roll 9 dice for the first 5 tests and 6 dice for the last 5 tests and added the results to my starting pool of 8CP (to experiment with opponents of various CP numbers). Then I just went and rolled the dice for a 1CP strategem, marking each time I went up, down, or stayed neutral. After each time I'd used 5 1CP strategems I used a single 2 CP strategem to simulate real-game conditions. I rolled until my CP pool hit 0 and had been tracking how many CPs I was using as I went.

 

Here were the results: 

Hidden Content

5 Tests against an opponent who uses 9 strategems:

Test one - Kurov's Aquila gave +4 CP, I went down in CPs 12 times, up in CPs 3 times, broke even 7 times. I used 19 single CP strategems and 3 double CP strategems, totally 26 CPs used.

Test two - KA +4, went down 18 times up 7 and even 19, used 37 singles and 7 doubles for 51 total.

Test three - KA +3, down 12 up 2 even 14, 24 singles and 4 doubles for 32 total.

Test four - KA +4, down 17 up 6 even 23, 39 singles and 7 doubles for 53 total.

Test five - KA + 3, down 12 up three even 15, 25 singles 5 doubles 35 total.

 

And 5 more tests against opponents using 6 strategems:

Test 6 - KA +2, down 5 up 1 even 18, 20 singles 4 doubles 28 total.

Test 7 - KA +1, down 3 up 0 even 12, 14 singles 1 double 16 total.

Test 8 - KA +1, down 8 up 1 even 22, 26 singles 5 doubles 36 total.

Test 9 - KA +1, down 5 up 0 even 12, 15 singles 2 doubles 19 total.

Test 10 - KA +2, down 6 up 0 even 13, 17 singles 2 doubles, 21 total.

 

As you can see, I rolled above odds for the first 5 tests and below odds for the last 5 tests on the KA, which definitely impacted the results. But I guess that what it shows is that the numbers really are pretty high!

 

When the opponent is using 9 strats (in my meta, that's not uncommon with CP farming a big deal around here) I averaged spending 39.4 CPs! That's with roughly one 2CP strat per five 1CP strats. When the opponent is using 6 strats I got an average of 24 - still not bad especially considering my rolling wasn't great. Funnily enough that's exactly triple my original CP value, which my calculations had predicted.

 

Feel free to field test it yourself, would love to see the results!

 

I've played in a five game tournament using the miner (not VV though) along with 3 other mates using the miner and quite a few practice games.  Most of us averaged around 6-8 CP extra a game - from a start of around 9/10, with VV I got about 3-5 more. 

 

So... either the expression of your argument is a little off (cause i'm not following ><; ) or the math is, because I cant see how you're getting near 35+ without exceptionally lucky rolling. 

 

Help!!

 

Working with 9 CP and using all singles (better odds) with VV and KA/GS you're getting another 15.

 

9 singles = 18 dice = 9 used, 6 back. 

 6 singles = 12 dice = 6 used, 4 back.

4 singles = 8 dice = 4 used, 2.6 back. 

3 singles = 6 dice = 3 used, 2 back.

2 singles = 4 dice = 2 used, 1 back.

 

add that to 

 

say 6 strats used, and one die - you're looking at

 

2 extra (3 with 9 strats)

which nets you +1 or 2 more for your use at 6strats and +3 CP for 9 enemy strats 

 

On average rolls you're looking at a max 18 additional, no? How are you getting another 7+ on average?   

 

 

Depends how many points you're talking too, but 2 examples from this week. One game I had 8 CPs, Kurov's Aquila and Grand Strategist which came out to probably 11ish CPs in the end. It was enough, but there were plenty of times where I would have liked and benefitted greatly from having more. Tonight I took the same but with the Veritas Vitae, ended up with the equivalent of maybe 14 CPs and to be honest it still felt like there were a whole heap of missed opportunities. I never swung twice, I didn't use FF. If I'm taking death company I always try and save 2 for their morale (so sad that they are such scaredy-cats in 8th...) and coz I run sisters cross BA I like to save 1CP for Celestine's animation.

 

Anyway, I tabled him on turn two (we're prepping for a tourney so my army was pretty brutal) but I had no trouble burning through 14ish CPs even in those two short turns.

 

TLDR for a competitive army, I can't imagine having less than 8.

 

Edit: at the risk of having what I believe is an almost broken combo ruined, for my fellow BA brothers I think it's worth sharing. Grand strategist + VV is just absurd. On a 1 CP stratagem you have a 66% chance of keeping your CP... That means for every 3 you spend, you'll only lose one on average. It essentially triples your CP pool! So essentially, 8 CPs become 24!!! Of course, it's a little less than that for 2+ CP strats but you're still a really good chance to break even since you get 3 dice. The VV is not as good as some of the WL traits individually, but the incredible thing about it is that as a Relic it can STACK with the WL traits! In comparison, just having SC as your WL trait turns your 8 CPs into 12ish. (12 with 1/3 refunded is 8, whereas 24 with 2/3 refunded is 8). So the combination of the two together is just obscene.

 

[Panzer]

Not from me but I appreciate that you thought it was me. :D

[superwill]

Muchly appreciated, even though a touch late to the party there, bud!! Discussed in detail in the BA Dex observation thread (and I think elsewhere before that? I think I got the idea from here from Panzer maybe?)

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/?p=4988242

 

I've played in a five game tournament using the miner (not VV though) along with 3 other mates using the miner and quite a few practice games. Most of us averaged around 6-8 CP extra a game - from a start of around 9/10, with VV I got about 3-5 more.

 

So... either the expression of your argument is a little off (cause i'm not following ><; ) or the math is, because I cant see how you're getting near 35+ without exceptionally lucky rolling.

 

Help!!

 

Working with 9 CP and using all singles (better odds) with VV and KA/GS you're getting another 15.

 

9 singles = 18 dice = 9 used, 6 back.

6 singles = 12 dice = 6 used, 4 back.

4 singles = 8 dice = 4 used, 2.6 back.

3 singles = 6 dice = 3 used, 2 back.

2 singles = 4 dice = 2 used, 1 back.

 

add that to

 

say 6 strats used, and one die - you're looking at

 

2 extra (3 with 9 strats)

which nets you +1 or 2 more for your use at 6strats and +3 CP for 9 enemy strats

 

On average rolls you're looking at a max 18 additional, no? How are you getting another 7+ on average?

Yeah I've seen other people mention taking both as a generally good idea, but never seen the full breakdown / power of the combo outlined. But hey, there's nothing new under the sun, so I'm sure others have had the thought in the same detail before

 

I'm not surprised that the tournament with people taking just GS didn't have stunning results. With just GS or just VV, you're saving 1/3 of your CPs, which means that for each single CP you actually spend, you're getting 0.5 CPs free. So you get +50% of your CPs. So 8 become 12. Still great, but nothing amazing. But when you go from 1/3 to 2/3 saved it compounds. It means that for every CP you spend, you're getting 2 CPs free. So you get +200% of your CPs. So 8 becomes 24.

 

EDIT: IVE JUST RE-READ YOUR POST AND REALIZE I'D MISUNDERSTOOD IT. BUT EVEN USING YOUR METHOD, IF YOU TAKE THE 8 CP EXAMPLE AND THEN DO TIMES TWO DIVIDE BY THREE (two dice, one in three return a CP), AND REPEATING THE PROCESS YOU STILL END UP TRIPLING YOUR RESULT AND GETTING 24, SO LONG AS YOU'RE NOT ROUNDING OFF. IF YOU TRY YOUR FORMULA AGAIN FOR 9 CP BUT DONT ROUND IT OFF YOU'LL END UP WITH 27.

 

So even using your method, it's still the same! But I reckon the simplest way to think about it is the 2/3 chance that the CP will be free, which ultimately triples your CP!

 

As I showed a couple of posts earlier, I rolled a bunch of tests and rolled a mix of above odds and below odds, and still managed to get the kind of numbers I expected. I'd encourage you to give it a go for yourself and check it out! I took it for the first time in a proper game last night and spent 28 CPs over the course of the game.

Edited February 27, 2018 by superwill