Phalanx vs. Abyss vs. Primarch Flagship/Gloriana

[b1soul]

Do we have enough info to do a firepower comparison?

[Hrolf the Cunning]

Honestly, no. I don't think there has been enough consistency across novels and other sources to draw anything approaching an accurate comparison. The only thing that seems clear to me is that the Phalanx is probably well clear of the others ie. Not even in the same class

[Lord_Caerolion]

Sadly, it's another case of every author having different ideas of what the same ships are capable of, and what they even are, really. We know the Furious Abyss/Blessed Lady/the third one are regarded as far more powerful than a Gloriana-class, and that the Phalanx isn't so much as a ship but a halfway-point between a ship and a mini Death Star, given that it's used as an orbital platform above Terra. What those actually mean in practice, though, is another matter entirely. The closest we can really come is either Battlefleet Gothic/Rogue Trader (the RPG), but neither of those include rules for those ships.

[Tarvek Val]

Ok, well here are the facts as I know them: the Phalanx is described as being the size of a small moon, the Furious Abyss is stated to "dwarf Emperor-class battleships", and the Gloriana-class battleship is described as follows: "far larger than any other known class of Imperial vessel, with the two exceptions of the mobile star-fortress known as the Phalanx and the Abyss-class Battleships unleashed by the Word Bearers" (my source for this last quote is the Warhammer 40,000 Wiki). A factor that throws a bit of a monkey wrench into the situation as a whole is that each Gloriana-class battleship is unique. For example, the Iron Blood, Perturabo's flagship, was 20 kilometers in length, while Guilliman's Macragge's Honor was 26 kilometers in length. An extra 6 kilometers of weaponry, void shield generators, fighter decks, and so forth can make a crucial difference in a space battle. I guess you would have to know specifically which Gloriana-class battleship you wanted to pick for this hypothetical... That being said, based on the fact that all of the Gloriana's are smaller than the Phalanx and Furious Abyss, I would say that they would not be able to take on either of those capital ships. They could wreak some serious havoc, I'm sure, but the Furious Abyss was literally built to end the realm of Ultramar by utterly annihilating enemy war fleets and the Phalanx is a whole 'nother kind of beast. "The Furious Abyss possessed a formidable array of weaponry, with hundreds of laser batteries that ran the length of both of its sides. It also possessed an experimental weapon: a plasma lance embedded in its prow, developed as a direct fire close-range weapon for ship-to-ship combat, able to fire at point-blank ranges. The ​Furious Abyss could also deploy psionic mines when in transit in the Warp, to collapse stable warp routes when being followed by enemy vessels." On the other hand, the Phalanx was"many kilometers long, triangular in cross-section with its upper surface bristling with weapons and sensorium drones. Two wings swept back from the hull, trailing directional vanes like long gilded feathers. Every surface was clad in solid armor plating and every angle was covered by more torpedo tubes than any Imperial battleship could muster" (though again, the Furious Abyss is not an Imperial ship!). In conclusion, I say its a toss-up between the Phalanx and Abyss. Sorry Gloriana, maybe next time.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Tarvek Val

[b1soul]

I was thinking of Horus' Gloriana...The Vengeful Spirit

[Tarvek Val]

Well, what we do know is that the Vengeful Spirit falls into the Scylla-pattern Gloriana category of warships, and that it is somewhere in-between 20 and 26 kilometers (the lengths of the smallest and largest Gloriana-class warships, respectively). It has "hundreds of gun batteries and massive accelerator cannons twice the length of Imperial battleships themselves" (Warhammer 40,000 Wiki). Whilst a dominating and imposing warship, I simply can't believe that it would be able to hold its own against either the Phalanx or Furious Abyss... Though as Hrolf said, there really isn't much concrete evidence for which which ship / star fortress would absolutely, definitively come out on top.

[Elzender]

What I am actually curious about is how will BL handle the Phalanx role in the Siege of Terra. Current canon has it survive the Heresy and up to the 41st/42nd millenium, so it is not destroyed during the Siege. However, I can't see Rogal Dorn not using it in the naval conflict over Terra to the last consequences. The only thing I can come up with right now is that it is temporarily conquered by the traitors, or that it is completely neutralized without being destroyed, although this seems pretty implausible.

[Robbienw]

There is another ship we must consider, the emperors personal golden vessel the Imperator Somnium, said to dwarf the battleships accompanying it in both size and firepower!

[Marshal Loss]

No, we don't have enough data. I'd say it's almost certain that the Phalanx is the most powerful, though, being a 'pre-Imperial relic of vast size and unimaginable power,' leaving the order as Phalanx > Abyss class > Gloriana.

[Laughingman]

Sun snuffers>abyss class> Gloria

 

The sun snuffers are  supposedly the size of the rings of Saturn so roughly 60300km long, and had the destructive capacity to destroy the stars themselves, mercifully none survived the technology wars that heralded the beginning of old night. as far as we know...

[b1soul]

Where are the snuffers mentioned?

[Tarvek Val]

b1soul, the sun snuffers are weapons from the Dark Age of Technology. They are pre-Imperial, and none survived the Dark Age.

[Robbienw]

They are mentioned (along with a couple of other age of technology machines) in the short story Perpetual.

[carlisimo]

There is another ship we must consider, the emperors personal golden vessel the Imperator Somnium, said to dwarf the battleships accompanying it in both size and firepower!

I thought it was the Becephalus.

[TheRealMcCagh]

Isn't the Red Tear mentioned to only be 10 km long in Fear to Tread? That would make it significantly smaller than Iron Blood or Macragge's Honor

[Robbienw]

 

There is another ship we must consider, the emperors personal golden vessel the Imperator Somnium, said to dwarf the battleships accompanying it in both size and firepower!

I thought it was the Becephalus.

Bucephalus was mentioned in another great crusade story, in that battle where the Emperor and 1000 Custodes teleported into an Ork horde and only lost 3 custodians I think.

 

I guess it is a predecessor to Imperator Somnium. Or the emperor had more than one super vessel of his own.

 

Imperator Somnium was mentioned in the story Wolf of Ash and Fire, set just before Ullanor.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Robbienw

[Lord_Caerolion]

The thing to be remembered is that length isn't the only dimension that void-ships can go. People tend to make them along the same rough shape as oceanic ships, being long, narrow and "short" (vertically, at least). In void ships though, these dimensions don't necessarily have to hold true. The Iron Blood may be only 20km in length, compared to the Macragge's Honor being 26, but the Iron Blood could be twice as "tall" as the other, as well as being far wider. Guilliman could be fitting more guns length-wise, but if Perturabo has more "stacks", then he's got more firepower. Similarly, the Red Tear could be only 10km in length, but it could be "tear-shaped", making it far wider at one end, allowing for more room for weapons/shields etc. It could be basically 5km wide at the prow, with torpedo tubes along the whole width.

 

We just don't have enough info on what each is capable of. These are voidships constructed to the highest quality and with the best craftsmen of the Mechanicus involved in their construction, to the demanding specifications of each Primarch to be a flagship worthy of their Legion. 'Gloriana' isn't so much a fixed pattern and design, but rather seems to just be a classification of "this is basically the pinnacle of our ship-building capabilities". Phalanx was a Dark Age relic, from memory, and the Abyss-class seem to be almost "Gloriana +", given their use of forbidden tech, I'm assuming.

[Tarvek Val]

Yes, the Abyss and its sister ships are almost certainly larger and more heavily armed than the Gloriana-class ships, not to mention the fact that they have all of the absolute newest Dark Mechanicum technologies integrated. That's why I am of the opinion that a Gloriana would not be able to take on an Abyss type warship. You make a good point about width and height with regards to void-ships, Lord_Caerolion. Of course, one could argue that a bulkier, wider ship would be slower and less maneuverable despite any gains in firepower... But we would be venturing far, far into the realm of hypotheticals at that point. 

 

Again, at the end of the day there's really no definitive proof which of these ships would win over any of the others (yet! Maybe we will see more as the Heresy unfolds...).

[Lord_Caerolion]

They wouldn't necessarily be less maneuverable, as the ship would have more room for engines and thrusters as well. These are void ships, they don't need to worry about wind resistance or anything like that. 

 

Basically, my answer will be that the Phalanx wins out one-on-one against pretty much any other vessel, with the capabilities of the Abyss and Gloriana vessels being far too variable to get any solid info on. Until Forge World decide to redo Battlefleet Gothic (maybe Battlefleet Calth?) as a game, and give us stats for each vessel, it's going to be the same as arguing "which Primarch would win in a fight".

[Tarvek Val]

Precisely, there just aren't enough hard facts out there.

 

I find it a shame that we never really got to see the Furious Abyss go all-out in a void battle, that could've been an amazing piece, as long as it was written by the right author. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing a few more void battles in the Heresy / 40k eras!

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, we got to see the two sister-ships do so, and one, the Blessed Lady, basically took on the entire Ultramarine fleet by itself. It could have done even better than it did, if it wasn't focussing on preventing the Ultramarines from making planetfall rather than actually just attacking them.

[Tarvek Val]

You're correct, that totally slipped my mind. Thanks for the reminder, that really was a great moment for me. And for a ship to have that name... Argel Tal and the Blessed Lady had one of the best relationships in the Heresy era, in my opinion.