Are Plague Marines Competetive?

[Checkmate77]

Hmmmmm......would definitely be interesting to play with.....

 

Just a ballpark Idea.......don't have the codex in front of me but I should be close:

 

HQ- DemonPrince  (with Suppurating Plate)  (wings and Talons)                   (180)

HQ- Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor    (Combi Plasma and Balesword)       (126)

HQ- Chaos Lord (w/Balesword)                                                                       (80)

Hvy - 2xMBH                                                                                                    (296)

5x7 PMs (2xBL, C w/PS and PG)                                                                    (765)

 

 

Spearhead Detachment (+1 CP)

HQ - Malignant Plaguecaster                                                                           (110)

Elite - 6 BL Terminator (PF, 5xBubonic Axe, Reaper AC, 4xCombi-PL)          (338)

Elite - Plague Surgeon  (w/Fugaris Helm) (not sure of the points right now)   (80?)    

 

                                                                                

Total: 1975 with 6 CP

 

This is only a very rough idea, but with this set up you would have a hard hitting deep strike force and a literal wall of PMs advancing up the field supported by Characters and MBHs.  Having the DP behind one MBH and a Chaos Lord behind the other will help overcome their horrible Ballistic skill.  The Surgeon was just random idea of adding something to increase the survivability of the DG even more.

 

I like fluff so I went with 7-man squads, but technically for the same points.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Pleeaaassse don't bother putting a surgeon with fugaris in a competitive list, especially if you're burning cp for a second relic.

 

The increase in survivability is 5%, which is fairly negligible, as is 6" post relic. Pretty much every other character is better with the fugaris or in general.

[Checkmate77]

LOL, just an idea......just looking at an elite to support the advancing PM line.  Maybe a Fout Blightspawn instead?

[SkimaskMohawk]

It really depends. If you have a lot of launchers, then I prefer a Blightbringer for the increase in speed. If you have melee units that have impact or you want some deterrent with the sewer gun, then the blightspawn

[Prot]

I hate to be a party pooper, but I agree.... I only use the Surgeon for fun, but really he's almost useless in terms of reliability and function in a 'competitive' environment.

 

I use him for fun, and get a kick out of those games where he's on fire saving dudes left and right, but the norm is much less enjoyable.

[Blasphem]

I am currently building a PM based DG army (actualy i have around 1k2 pts).
I didnt tried it on battlefield allready (need to finish painting) but I am sure thoses guys can do a nice job (even if not as meta as some other units).

My army is based around 21 (3x7) plague marines:
1 melee squad in Rhino (2 flails, 4 axes, 1 balesword : 160 pts) with 1 Talyman, 1 Foul Blightspawn and 1 Biologus Putrifier)
2 range squads (3 plasma, 1 Power Fist : 170 pts each)
Add 1 Winged DP with the plate and Typhus as QG and 1 CSM patrol for 10 cultists and Terminator sorcereer with warp time/prescience.

 

I'm thinking to complete it with some Deathshrouds and maybe 1 or 2 Bloatdrones, filling last pts with Pox Walkers but do not misunderstood me, they are there to bait and hold objectives, Typhus will deepstrike where needed (with CC PM or Deathshroud to give them a boost and Putrescent Vitality/Blades of putrefaction) with sorcereer (Prescience/Warptime).
For 2k list I plan to use Mortarion.

Note that I heavily rely on mortal wounds (blight bombardment, blades of putrefaction,...).

I prefer to use 2 CP for Blight Bombardment+VotLW combo (average of 5,4 mortal +  5*2D wounds [on T5, count more normal wounds for lower T targets] for 7 guys.... But ok, you need to be in damn close range) than Death Walk Again+Cloud of flies (... what if your oponenent have more than two neurones and just don't fire on your cultists for this round, cleaning your supports/HQ?).

[Wolf Lord Loki]

My current 80 power point list (yet to leave the craft room alas) has

 

Battalion 3CP

Hq: Chaos Lord.

Hq: Necrosious (forge world)

T: 7 plague marines sarge as DI, 3 plasma guns

T: 7 plague marines sarge as DI, 2*blight launcher, 2*flails

DT: rhino twin combibolters

T: 20 poxwalkers

Hs: plague burst crawler

 

Outrider detatchment 1cp

Hq: daemon prince with wings

Fa: feotid bloat drone

Fa: greater blight drone

Fa: spawn

 

The plan adopts the hammer and anvil approach with the daemonprince, outrider detatchment and the flail squad being the hammer and the plague plasmas, poxwalkers lord, necrosious and plague burst being the anvil.

 

Necrosious acts as zombie plague surgeon and spell caster (knowing more spells than vertually anyone else) and the Lord is simply there for shooting bonuses

[Prot]

Deathshrouds are fun but need support quickly, as they are easily outrun.

 

So far my Plague Marines continue to be some of my lowest damaging units. I get the most mileage out of of shooting them with the Warlord trait that allows all Plague rerolls.

 

That said I have had a good time with flail squads and Tallyman.

[McElMcNinja]

I've been running 2 squads of 7; 2 blight launchers, 1 plasma, and 1 plague sword (cuz I had 2 points to spare) each. If it weren't for the rapid fire at 18" and the 2 extra marines to die as fodder, I would run 5 man squads. I would have to lose the poxwalker unit to add a 3rd 5 man squad. I think then I could also add another Blightspawn, which now that I'm thinking about it actually sounds pretty good. I'm going to have to look into this more.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Sounds a plan Mcninja. Ive only got pox walkers in my list because:

1) a friend bought me a model to use as Necrosious from forgeworld so want to show case his ablities

2) i, errr, dont have a third squad of plague marines!!

 

Although depending on playing this list i may look to switch out the blight launchers for mace/ axe warriors in the cc squad and start a small 5man dakka squad

[McElMcNinja]

I'm slowly assembling a cc squad of 8. I was thinking champion with fist, sword, & plasma p. The rest all with 2 cc weapons except for 2 flails. Start them in a rhino with a lord and a Putrifier.

This way (if) I can get them close enough, they can all just throw plague bombs instead of shooting and I'm getting a few extra attacks in cc. If all the PM's make it to combat, that would be 12+2d3 attacks from 8 guys.

With the right warlord trait all of those attacks get to reroll all failed wounds. I think it has the potential to be very devastating. Sure it might be a one trick pony, but it would be fun just to watch it all come together one time.

[Dallas Drake]

I'm going to try;

 

Champ w/Plasmagun

PM w/flail

PM w/flail

PM w/blight launcher

PM w/blight launcher

PM w/axe

PM w/axe

Blightspawn

Blightspawn

Biologus

 

All in a Rhino. I figure that a Rhino is not going to be my opponents priority if I have 3 spitterdrones and 2 PBCs rushing them. If the Rhino can drop off its cargo then there's 11xD6 grenades @ S4 MW on 5+ & the Biologus' @ S5. The squad can shoot well with plasma & blight launchers too doing some nice damage, not to mention the plague sprayers are there to significantly add to that shooting. It's not a nice unit to charge either but the Rhino can be used to block LOS if needed/alive & there's also cloud of flies as the rest of the army is fast too.

 

I really think that PMs can be decent, though I can't imagine running them without at least 1 Blightspawn to back them up.

 

Also, off thread but I want people thoughts on this, I'm thinking of dropping my usual 20 Cultists & 20 Poxwalkers bubble wrap and replacing them with Nurglings so I can add Epi and a Poxbringer. Nurglings seem way more useful but I only used them once and that was against Stealer shock Nids so they got deleted turn 1. Any ideas on them?

[Blasphem]

Since this is the main, if not the only, reason for me to play Plague Marines, I did the maths for Blight Bombardment + VotLW with a 7 PM squad with Biologus Putrifier + QG with WL Arch-Contaminator and «reroll ones», wich is (I believe) the best «happy case» you could imagine.

 

I m not a pro with this kind of maths so I did it step by step. Correct me if I m wrong.

 

1) 7 Grenades 1d6 = ~ 24.5 shoots

2) BS 3+ = ~ 16.33 hits, add reroll ones ~ 2.72 hits = ~ 19.05 hits

3) S4 vs T5/T6/T7 (5+) with +1 to wound from VotLW = ~ 9.52 wounds, add reroll arch-contaminator ~4.76 = ~ 14.28 wounds

 

*Add Saves Step here* but who cares? Since amongs your successfull wounds rolls 9.52 wounds rolls are 5+ meaning it inflict 1 extra mortal wound.

 

Average Result: 14.28 saves rolls vs D2 plus 9.52 mortal wounds.

 

Remind, even if I think the maths are right, I may be wrong and this is a Happy Case Scenario where you managed to have all your 7 man squad in range for grenade (6") and near your warlord and Biologus Putrifier.

 

But looking at the result, I truely believe there must be space for at least one CC PM unit in competitive play. And I didnt talk about melee with Blades of Putrefaction, Flails, Bubonic Axes, Tallyman, VotLW and Arch-Contaminator. ;)

[Checkmate77]

Thanks for the Math Blasphem.  Now how about a more......common scenario?  In other words, does a CC PM squad NEED all these support characters to be effective?  Lets say you have a 7-man squad in range for a Blight Bombardment with no other supporting characters, is it still worth it?

[BlackTriton]

At first glance your maths are right.

Relevant to the discution,

Assuming 7D6 (5 man PM + 2 character) and assuming 4+ to wound (mec, T7 with VotLW) and 3+ save. We ends at average 3 wound (2 damage each) and 2.5 MW (4.5 with 5 VotLW).

The thing is these number are subject to WILD variation. You can really spike up or down.

 

Blades of putrefaction are not as impressive, since you get only 2 attack per models instead of 1D6, however, it can be used in addition to it.

In the same scenario, assuming only 7 plague knife and no other buff, you end at 1.8 wounds (1 damage) and 1.5 Mortal wounds.

**Edit: these are number for T7 with nothing else**

[SkimaskMohawk]

Just lightly skimmed the math breakdown, but it can be important to remember that when you reroll wounds, the +1 from votlw isn't taken into account when determining pass/fails, so you have more of a chance to fish for 5s against T7 and lower.

 

I love me a gimmick combo, but imo the most melee you'd want to make the squad is double knives to keep them cheap, a biologus, and a chaos lord. 8 guys and the 2 characters in the rhino. It's only ~350 for this combo and it only costs 1 drop. The problem being your warlord is being committed and rhinos aren't the hardest to kill once they widen up

[Blasphem]

@BlackTriton:

In my example, 7 dice comes for 7 PM, not 5 + 2 characters.

 

@Checkmate77:

 

Doing the same maths, without any reroll source except Plague Weapon (in one word, without the QG), you will deal 24.5 shoots, for 16.33 hits, for 9.52 wounds to save (D2 per wound) plus 6.34 mortal wounds.

 

To me the biggest issue is more to have thoses sweet guys in close range than bringing the support.

 

Edit: Btw I m still using votlw and Biologus Putrifier, wich is required if you want to deal the mortal wounds. So, nope. I don't believe Blight Bombardment worth it if you don't have any support and votlw.

[McElMcNinja]

The real issue becomes relevant after you destroy whatever it is you attacked, you're left out in the open to be shot up. So I suggest also playing CoF on them and keep the rhino closer to your opponent or get a drone in their face.

[BlackTriton]

Tactics wise, im not sure Blight Bombardment is plan A.

Its definitely worth it to include a Biologus if you use plague marines / multiple Blightspawns.

Its also a nice way to deal with a fast / deep melee treat of which all top list have at least one (custodian bike, shining spear) with only plague marines. 

 

honestly, with a 2cp cost, you're probably not doing it every game and certainly not more than once.

A list that uses them aggressive probably wants them to be targeted instead of Bloat drones or Daemon princes.

 

I don't think its a one trick pony, but rather means the opponent cannot ignore a otherwise unremarkable unit, and that's maybe its real value!

[Wolf Lord Loki]

My current list has them in a rhino driving up a flank with 2 drones, a spawn and a flying daemon prince

 

Has yet to be tested but the plan is target saturation as i plough into a flank and roll up along his lines

[Prot]

I was actually just thinking about how many 'marine' style armies really have potent troops. The type of troops that make it easy to take 6 of them, or even build an idea around 3 squads of them. It just doesn't happen that often for marines.

 

I would say Death Guard marines have higher potential than most. For example my Primaris Ultra's don't hold a candle to Death Guard (Specifically Intercessors vs. Plague Marines).

 

The problem is Ultra has little choice. DG does. So while I'll often throw 2-3 Intercessor squads in a list.... maybe one of Scouts. But even though you could argue the DG Plague marine is more flexible, it competes with Poxwalkers, Cultists, and even daemon troops.

 

Inevitably most competitive 'marine' style armies take minimum troops, so they can stack the elites/heavies or LoW, etc. The marine troop just becomes an 'unlock' for better units. (To be fair the cost comes with 'Obsec" and a better footprint). 

 

IF I could take cultists equivalent for Ultra (for example), I would, and you'd see even more Aggressors/Helblasters, etc on the field. This isn't the case though. So back to Death Guard the beauty of a Cataphractii based list, or heavy Plagueburst crawler,  Bloat drone lists, etc. 

 

So I guess where I'm going with this is the Plague Marine may even be better than a lot of it's comparables in other armies, but I think it's often put aside in competition to put more points into the truly potent units in the codex. 

[McElMcNinja]

I played against a BA list that had 12+ 5 man squads. At least 3 of each scouts, tactical, devastater, and assault. My Terminators took out most in his backfield while my drones/DP dealt with the infiltrators/reserves. My 7 man PM's did OK except against 1 unit of jump packs with a special character whom Mr Blightspawn dealt with easily. Now the 1 unit I lost had no support like his, so I expected as much. Had they been equipped for cc or supported I think I wouldn't have lost them. I really think it came down to me not being able to pick my battle in that particular case. PM's are tougher and with DttFE, normal marines really aren't a threat in my opinion, if you get to choose the fight.

I had to build a list that I thought could handle any list I might have to face. If I knew I would only be facing marines, I know I could build a list to handle them which would have included more PM's. But when you have to build for the unexpected, it becomes more difficult and can really hamper your list.

I think people underestimate what PM's really bring to the table vs Poxwalkers/Cultists lists.

[Sheesh Mode]

 

I’m of the opinion that rhinos negate the benefits you pay for with the plague marines, that is their ability to advance at no penalty and their durability. Obviously rhinos will protect them well enough, I just feel those points can be saved for use elsewhere.

 

 

Rhinos dramatically increase Plague Marine threat range. A rhino affected by a Noxious Blight Bringer is very likely to transport those Plague Marines to the mid-field turn 1. Which means you can disembark those same Plague Marines and continue advancing the rhino to blow it up in the enemy line. 

 

 

 

Very true. I think people get confused because they have so many modeling options now "That you must be able to kit them out to handle any situation!"

 

 

Sadly this is not the case. Their wargear is mostly for a model/narrative enthusiast (which I am!). Putting 2 melta guns on a msu PM squad in a rhino probably does not mean that the unit is going to blow up an enemy predator.

 

I disagree. Inexorable Advance makes them much more dangerous than at first glance. A couple Plague Marines motivated by a noxious Blightbringer can sprint from the mid-field to a target to kill it with special weapons and assault it in the following turn. For example, a minimum sized squad of Plague Marines armed with Blight Launchers and close combat weapons fulfills both roles as a lethal shooting and close combat unit. Support that squad with psychic powers, stratagems, and the Arch Contaminator warlord trait and they become much more dangerous than they appear.

[Prot]

I don't want anyone to take my post personal... it's not my intent, and I don't normally post from a very personal perspective typically but since this topic is centered around something that very much bothers me about 8th.....

 

 

 

 

Very true. I think people get confused because they have so many modeling options now "That you must be able to kit them out to handle any situation!"

 

 

Sadly this is not the case. Their wargear is mostly for a model/narrative enthusiast (which I am!). Putting 2 melta guns on a msu PM squad in a rhino probably does not mean that the unit is going to blow up an enemy predator.

 

I disagree. Inexorable Advance makes them much more dangerous than at first glance. A couple Plague Marines motivated by a noxious Blightbringer can sprint from the mid-field to a target to kill it with special weapons and assault it in the following turn. For example, a minimum sized squad of Plague Marines armed with Blight Launchers and close combat weapons fulfills both roles as a lethal shooting and close combat unit. Support that squad with psychic powers, stratagems, and the Arch Contaminator warlord trait and they become much more dangerous than they appear.

 

 

I think the point about the Rhino, the 2 D6 highest advance, the options available, etc... are all great points.  Sure Plague Marines can be 'dangerous'.

 

How competitive are we talking here? Let me be 100% honest, I really do love Plague Marines. I enjoy all marines and have a zillion armies to prove it. And my troops are usually excessively tacticals/Plague Marines/Intercessors, etc.

 

But let's say you challenged me to a game, and the loser has his hand cut off. The amount of Plague Marines I'm bringing to that game is zero.

 

This is my current beef with marines in general, and it's a point people like to argue with me all the time. They are not competitive. Not if you are playing strictly to win.

 

The ideas in this thread largely fall along with my own, and I try to be competitive in semi-competitive to competitive environments. And yea, they do alright in those situations.

 

Back to my beef; Obsec isn't enough to validate the tax. Plague Marines are still a tax. Plain and simple. Cheap crap that gets you command points, and bodies, and a massive footprint will win more games given two people of equal play skill.

 

I could pull example after example out, but I'll just use today's 1st and 2nd place winner of Adepticon 2018:

 

Flyrant spam with tons of garbage troops for CP's, psykery, and footprint/area denial.

 

Chaos soupish; Black Poxwalker farm. Abaddon/Ahriman/Typhus + Cultist and Pox spam for... you guessed it, lots of CP's, and a massive footprint of garbage that can grow, or be replaced. 

 

If you go back to LVO's top lists of nearly identical Eldar armies, we can see that although Reapers are a problem in 40K it really still needs Guardian bubbles to work. It's just more of the same.

 

Normally I don't post this personal side of my 40K experiences, but I guess you could say this gets me going because I have been harping on it since the first 10 minutes of 8th edition: Cheap crap and spam is far too potent in our current 40K. I realized this playing 180+ Ork index lists in the opening minutes of 8th edition. 

 

For a minute I thought that GW was on to something with Custodes Bikes whipping around with Hurricane Bolters. I loved it... people complained, but I loved the idea of 6 of these floating around on shield captains.... VERY potent except it doesn't quite work because the spammable units are just insanely high. It doesn't even matter what you do with these clouds of chaff... they simply exist to create barriers and own real estate.... *yarwn*.

 

Where I'm going with my personal rant (and while I recognize this is and has been my personal rant with 8th ed since inception (because it's VERY fixable) I promise I will not bring it up again....is that if you think Plague Marines are excluded from this undeniable 'competitive truth', I really think you're wrong. I think at this point in our journey with 8th, every one can see this plain as day by now.

 

But by 'competitive' if we mean; My buddy is playing with his gamey Genestealer list again.. then yea, Plague Marines can be turned up a notch.

 

That said.... the beauty of 8th is this can change very easily. Codexes used to magic bullet each other all the time. (hence my Custodes comment which didn't come to fruition). 

[SkimaskMohawk]

I agree with prot. I really do love msu marines and the idea of the blobs. I think the small launcher squads can really do a number, but the zombie horde list that got 2nd or a heavy plagueburst crawler lost with Daemon support just do so much more with the points.

 

No one takes fully kitted out tactical or chaos space marine squads, they take min intercessors or cultists.