Are Plague Marines Competetive?

[SkimaskMohawk]

And yet, some of those lists will do far better than others. For about the same points as 6 PMs with triple special weapon you get a PBC. That's twice as many wounds, T8, a 5++, faster, has better bolt style shots and better close range control. You also get the mortar you can throw at anything, but that's just an unreliable bonus.

 

PMs by contrast have better mid range shooting, better melee combat and can score a lot better due to being troops and having more than 1 model.

 

There's a lot of strong builds. But strong is different from high end competitive

[Sheesh Mode]

@Prot: I consider your statement regarding Plague Marines a challenge and therefore will record my findings. Cheers. 

[Prot]

@Prot: I consider your statement regarding Plague Marines a challenge and therefore will record my findings. Cheers. 

 

It's not meant to be. It's just the result of my own experiences, now being confirmed by all major ITC events/Adepticon, etc.

 

Trust me, I dislike my comment more than you know.

[Aothaine]

I still feel that plague marines are competitive. They might not be face-rolling stupid like the cultist/pox walker lists though. But in the right hands a good player will be able to play the objectives and potentially pull a win from those lists. So it all comes down to the type of competitive you're looking for as others have posted earlier. Do you want to be the guy with that netlist that people despise playing? Or do you want to play the game with a competitive force that has some flavor and uniqueness to it? They are both valid ways to play the game. Just expect a struggle if you're going up against the crazy Eldar lists.

 

In the end though it is a game. If you're not having fun playing it then why are you playing it ya know?

[Panzer]

I'll believe it when I see Plague Marines doing well on bigger tournaments. So far everything has proven otherwise unfortunately. And it's not like people didn't try to make such lists work.

[bozo69pd]

I'll believe it when I see Plague Marines doing well on bigger tournaments. So far everything has proven otherwise unfortunately. And it's not like people didn't try to make such lists work.

Truth. I haven't had a full competitive game in months because everyone around here are playing ynarri dark reaper combos. I have been having more fun sticking to narrative games lately because of this.

 

Also, while some people consider such things netlists... I have been playing Flying Nurgle Circus with Typhus and zombies back since I started in 6th 2013. It is cruel I know, but I consider that theme my play style and really fun. "Oh you are going to shoot at me for 45 minutes. Fine, I will play an army that can endure it while I stand there rolling dice with a smug expresion on my face."

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ah my favorite list of all time, Typhedemius. 5ed CSM and Daemons back in August of 2012 when it had really dumb synergy

[Panzer]

daeth to  the Zombie and crawler list

flyrants are dead

2 major rule changes

one oft those is about reinforcements ( instead of count of units, its about points.)

new poxwalker cost points

reaper cost 10 points more

shining spears go up in points too

no information about point reductions... but there are a few units with increased point costs ---> maybe we are the lucky ones

 

 

 

Source: Organisators from London GT who are in contact with GW

 

Well, if that's true, then I guess Plague Marines will become more competetive by default simply because the alternative Troop choices won't be as good as before anymore. 

[Prot]

That’s one way of improving Plaguemarines!

 

Weird though because I thought the FAQ was rules only.

[BlackTriton]

I did expect the FAQ to be awnsers to question, maybe some dataslate correction but no more.

 

Being hands on with rules is new to them, maybe they are still figuring things out.

Having to wait a full year before they can make point ajustment may be a bit long, with codex coming out all the time.

 

In the long term I could see Chapter approved to be more about update to the rules, fleshing out mechanics of the game that feels barebones right now, including a compendium of the years adendum to points.

 

Cant wait to get my hands on the FAQ though.

[DominikB]

 

 

daeth to the Zombie and crawler list

flyrants are dead

2 major rule changes

one oft those is about reinforcements ( instead of count of units, its about points.)

new poxwalker cost points

reaper cost 10 points more

shining spears go up in points too

no information about point reductions... but there are a few units with increased point costs ---> maybe we are the lucky ones

 

 

 

Source: Organisators from London GT who are in contact with GW

Well, if that's true, then I guess Plague Marines will become more competetive by default simply because the alternative Troop choices won't be as good as before anymore.

Not sure the fix to PW is a points increase, as you farm them off cheap units anyway...

 

Shame that there’s no inbetween with GW, just like with comissars...

[Panzer]

There are two things mentioned for Poxwalker tho. A points increase and the very first sentence "death to the Zombie and crawler list" which makes me think they're going to re-word the Stratagem a little bit.

[Prot]

I really hate the Plaguecrawler nerf idea. I mean I never over abused it... never used them with Daemons, and that's where the problem is there.

Back on Poxwalkers.... I always said I'd rather see GW fix something rather than bust something else. Just put a limitation of one Poxwalker unit per army. Make it 30 big to compensate a little bit. It's done. It's only too strong when there are lots of units on the table.

 

But more importantly in order for Plaguemarines... any marines to be competitive, you can't just keep wacking cheap chaff on the knees with a stick until marine units shine. It doesn't work that way.

 

BTW where are these rumours from?

[Panzer]

Casual and semi-competetive player always have to suffer when the super competetive player find something to abuse unfortunately. *looks at the T'au Commander limit*

 

BTW where are these rumours from?

 

Found them on the Black Templar subreddit. You can just click on the icon in the upper right corner of the quote to get there directly. ^^

[SkimaskMohawk]

I mean, you only really need 1 unit anyways. One unit means you don't have to choose who gets what psychic buffs, the pox are 100% protected by the strat, you have more points to cram cultists in and you have more poxwalker models to place.

[Panzer]

 

daeth to the Zombie and crawler list

flyrants are dead

2 major rule changes

one oft those is about reinforcements ( instead of count of units, its about points.)

new poxwalker cost points

reaper cost 10 points more

shining spears go up in points too

no information about point reductions... but there are a few units with increased point costs ---> maybe we are the lucky ones

 

 

 

Source: Organisators from London GT who are in contact with GW

Hi there, as the TO of the LGT, perhaps you could show me where I said any of this? Perhaps sleep talking? I don't think so. Slander and defamation are real things with real legal consiquences.

 

 

An unexpected turn of events. 

[Dallas Drake]

I'm probably way off here but I personally think the issue with chaff units being OP is a design flaw in the game. A bit of thought about the wounds characteristic IMO would fix this. The way I see it, the issue with Poxwakers (and the previous issue with Conscripts) wasn't the number and size of the units, it's the fact that chaff can spam wounds by the sheer fact that they're cheap 1 wound models, you're not bothered about their save etc as they're so cheap. This is compounded by the easy access to CPs by spamming cheap troops.

 

Why pay 13-18 points for 1 MEQ wound when you can pay 4-6 for a GEQ wound if you're failing that 3+ save anyway? Not to mention so much has AP-1/-2 out there.

 

MEQs would instantly be fixed if they were 2 wounds, then Primaris/Terminators etc could all be 3 wounds. This is something I think GW are scared of considereing but it would make Marines instantly worth thinking about taking. I have an AM friend and he really enjoyed playing blobs of Conscripts, it felt like Guard! Now that's nerfed and all because of bad rules design/internal balance.

 

In short, nerfing other units isn't going to make MEQs good. I personally play with 2-3 units of Plague Marines and love them, but they're not the most effective use of points. I hardly care as I play what I like etc but it's a shame spam and cheap blob armies dominate 8th ed. meta so much.

[Panzer]

Well I can confirm that at least Primaris Intercessors for their current cost feel right on the board. They're pretty much what I always wanted from Tacticals except that they can't take a special/heavy weapon. So giving all Marines an additional wound would go a long way already ... and you know what? I'm sure GW knows that, hence why we got Primaris with W2 now.

[Aothaine]

Casual and semi-competetive player always have to suffer when the super competetive player find something to abuse unfortunately. *looks at the T'au Commander limit*

 

So true. But also in casual and semi-competitive environments players can also adjust the rules to an agreed upon change. It is one of the reasons I  enjoy casual games so much and think that the narrative system is so perfect for this game. You can still optimize and have a fun and fluffy list. I suppose TTT has rubbed off on me. I almost always stay clear of named characters as I'd rather create my own story with my army and I enjoy the fluff side of things too much to play the lists that are crushing tournaments. Just a personal preference which is why I say you can still use the Plague Marines and do decently well outside of a competitive ITC environment. I actually have a pretty cool Plague Marine list that walks up the field then bashes you with all their cool special melee weapons. ^_^ It is good fun!

[Dallas Drake]

Yeah, but would it be so game breaking to make MEQs 2 wounds and then Primaris/TEQs 3 wounds?..  I doubt it. I mean I get what you're saying, and hooray for Primaris, but that doesn't help the other MEQs in the game, Plague Marines are still sub optimal to Cultists or Poxwalkers in DG lists because they are only 1 wound models. So, yeah... GW need to do more to make the game balanced; but that's just my opinion.

[Panzer]

Yeah, but would it be so game breaking to make MEQs 2 wounds and then Primaris/TEQs 3 wounds?..  I doubt it. I mean I get what you're saying, and hooray for Primaris, but that doesn't help the other MEQs in the game, Plague Marines are still sub optimal to Cultists or Poxwalkers in DG lists because they are only 1 wound models. So, yeah... GW need to do more to make the game balanced; but that's just my opinion.

 

I don't disagree with you, I just think that GW has not too much interest in re-working the "old" Marine units on such a level and rather focusses on new kind of units.

Plague Marines are in a way better position than Chaos Marines and mostly need just a closer look at their and the Poxwalker/Cultists points imo. T5 and Disgustingly Resilient is a huge deal and makes them a lot more durable against something like Plasma than W2.

[Aothaine]

Yeah, but would it be so game breaking to make MEQs 2 wounds and then Primaris/TEQs 3 wounds?..  I doubt it. I mean I get what you're saying, and hooray for Primaris, but that doesn't help the other MEQs in the game, Plague Marines are still sub optimal to Cultists or Poxwalkers in DG lists because they are only 1 wound models. So, yeah... GW need to do more to make the game balanced; but that's just my opinion.

 

I think increasing the wounds characteristic of space marines in general by 1 would go a long way to giving them that feel that they are enhanced humans. It always surprised me that they could die so easily yet all the fluff has normal marines taking a battering before they die. 

 

I agree with sfPanzer. GW is realizing that space marines need to be more durable and I think a good test was the Custode line. 3 wounds each. Primaris are 2 wounds each. We all know they plan to phase out the old marines eventually. So in the next 5-6 years there will only be primaris. I think they are just trying to make the change slow so they don't erase their player base. They made massive changes to Fantasy and it felt like they lost almost everyone when they did that. It feels like it is slowly growing back, the new system is amazingly fun though. 

 

Give it time and I think we will see all the marines upgraded to 2 wounds at least. But honestly, Custodes and Primaris feel more like marines to me than any of the older stuff. 

[Prot]

I actually think there's more to it. I think marines sell no matter what. The novels, the models, the campaigns, the storylines all revolve to a large degree around the best selling line in the game. The starter kits going to department stores in the future will get everyone in the door on Marines, and/or Orks.

 

Then you get in the door, and you take your plastic blue press fit army that works out to about 50 battle points, and you get schooled by some pointy eared indirect firing, psychically empowered, alien models and next thing you know that new player is asking about these so called 'xenos'.

 

That's just me.. I know I'm cynical but I do remember being told eons ago they felt they could make Necrons the most powerful race in the game, the basic marine kits would always out sell them 10=1. (this was back when we had playtesting in my city).

 

Anyway, I agree it's the current game design that's doing it. Marines are still quite a ways off from being able to hang with the non-marines without something extremely potent driving them... Guilliman or whatever.

 

Poxwalkers get crazy good combined with a few things.

[Panzer]

Nah, balancing has no way anything to do with any marketing strategy with GW. I don't believe that for even one second.

[Prot]

Nah, balancing has no way anything to do with any marketing strategy with GW. I don't believe that for even one second.

 

I beg to differ. When they went towards selling stock aggressively a lot changed. I know even the way our playtest group worked changed. New models need to sell.. trust me.

 

If you think the 'new' Custodes line is far superior (rules wise) to the Grey Knights, just because of luck and nothing to do with which line has more selling potential, then I have a bridge to sell you. ;)

 

It's off topic really, but I do think it's safe to say with the main sale of Poxwalkers behind us, there is at least more potential for things to change there.