Are Plague Marines Competetive?

[Sheesh Mode]

Nah, balancing has no way anything to do with any marketing strategy with GW. I don't believe that for even one second.

Then you are not paying attention. Most of the Tyranid range is now out of stock - or was a month ago - because of their updated rules. Plague Burst Crawlers and Fetid Blight Haulers are also out of stock last I checked. The entire rule system is built to encourage players to purchase buckets of light infantry. That is not an accident. Mass light infantry was rare in 7th edition when compared to how they are commonly fielded now.

[Panzer]

I rather believe in GW not being able to balance things properly than them actively creating OP factions everybody complains about to sell things. Especially now since they actually try to listen to the community for once.

 

 

 

Nah, balancing has no way anything to do with any marketing strategy with GW. I don't believe that for even one second.

Then you are not paying attention. Most of the Tyranid range is now out of stock - or was a month ago - because of their updated rules. Plague Burst Crawlers and Fetid Blight Haulers are also out of stock last I checked. The entire rule system is built to encourage players to purchase buckets of light infantry. That is not an accident. Mass light infantry was rare in 7th edition when compared to how they are commonly fielded now.

 

 

The Tyranid range always sold well. Even during 7th where Tyranids were bottom tier they had a year with Tyranids being one of, if not, the most sold 40k faction.

Also many things are going out of stock more quickly than usual currently due GW having production issues (haven't heard a word of them having solved that problem so far).

[BlackTriton]

With my experience in large business, I have no difficulties beliving that the rules developer sometimes receive emails to remind them of what model must sell.

Then its a balancing act, you dont want anything OP, but you need the new shinny thing to be good. As a result the new hotness may be overtune,but probably not op.

 

It does not matter though, with their new hands-on style they can hit these things with the nerf Bat to get them in line pretty quickly, should it be necessary.

 

Take blight launcher for example, in chapter approved they got a point cut under a plasma gun making it the go to for plague marine. Conveniently, this weapon is only avayable in the new kit.

It makes plaguemarine a bit more efficient, it help drive sales from older player. Same goes for flails.

If these weapon become a problem they can always just give them a point increase. And the wheel keep turning to the next cool "discounted" rules.

[Prot]

Okay we’re all friends here... let’s stay focused on how much more we’re going to enjoy Plague Marines once Poxwalkers get nerfed! Lol

 

On a side note it looks like the rumoured stuff quoted earlier is a bust anyway.

 

If I were buffing Plague Marines it could come in the form of Auras too. Like the Plague Surgeon is really a terrible option right now. Conversely I think loyalist marines are largely horrible without their auras... heck even with them they need a Primarch to even attempt top level play. The point being there’s a few options to help PMs. Right now I don’t think they’re Killy enough to threaten any meta.

[Sheesh Mode]

Okay we’re all friends here... let’s stay focused on how much more we’re going to enjoy Plague Marines once Poxwalkers get nerfed! Lol

 

On a side note it looks like the rumoured stuff quoted earlier is a bust anyway.

 

If I were buffing Plague Marines it could come in the form of Auras too. Like the Plague Surgeon is really a terrible option right now. Conversely I think loyalist marines are largely horrible without their auras... heck even with them they need a Primarch to even attempt top level play. The point being there’s a few options to help PMs. Right now I don’t think they’re Killy enough to threaten any meta.

Increase Plague Surgeons by 30pts and make their ability "Re-roll all" instead of "Re-roll 1s". 

[DuskRaider]

I mean, you only really need 1 unit anyways. One unit means you don't have to choose who gets what psychic buffs, the pox are 100% protected by the strat, you have more points to cram cultists in and you have more poxwalker models to place.

 

I hope you mean for competitive only, because I sometimes use a large amount if I'm playing a theme. Again, it's a bummer the competitive crowd screws over the rest of us. Like always. Honestly, why nerf a 6 point model that has NO ranged attack, is slow, and relies on other units to actually be worth much? 

[Panzer]

Let's just hope they don't actually nerf Poxwalker but the Poxwalker/Cultist combo instead. The FAQ rumour wasn't true after all (the supposed source itself said they never said something like that). However looking at the Commissar/Conscript "fix" isn't exactly giving me much hope.

[DuskRaider]

I can live with the Cultist sacrifice being nerfed. Make it for any ENEMIES within 7" or whatever. Non-Nurgle units. I don't know. Nerfing what is already a situational unit as it is would be foolish. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea I'm talking about strong/competitive lists.

 

But why nerf a slow, no range, character dependant unit? Because right now they spiral out of control with their stratagem. Each cultist you take is actually worth 150% of their points value.

 

I agree them going up in points is probably a bad idea. Changing the stratagem to have a slightly larger range but only affects enemies to compensate would get rid of the battery lists while still keeping them effective.

 

That being said if they do nerf the points level and there's more of the "why do I have to suffer for the competitive players sins?" , just use power levels. They almost never adjust those

[Panzer]

Let's not have a points vs power level discussion here, please. 

[Charlo]

In wondering if they'll make Pox Walker's unable to be compulsory troops choices.

 

Could be one way to do it...

[SkimaskMohawk]

Let's not have a points vs power level discussion here, please.

I'm just saying, that if people say they prefer casual, narrative driven games and don't like how high end competition ruins their options because points go up, then power seems like the perfect fit.

 

Obviously the real culprit to most of the current problems in the game is that the force org chart is irrelevant. 5th had its own share of issues (mostly in the wound allocation department), but you knew there would never be more than 3 manticores in any leaf blower list. Or two flyrants. Any and all combosor synergy had to come from the codex and your limited amounts of selection.

[BlackTriton]

We could blame any number of factor for the state of the competitive meta.

Force organisation like the moral phase is an unsercooked system. I have a feeling we may see codex specific organisation in a futur supplement.

 

I love the idea of dead walks again being on enemy kill only. It deals with the "death blossom" list without actually changing the unit. Its brilliant really.

 

Though something could be said to get all chaff unit across the game to go up in point, given how much they give to an army.

[Sheesh Mode]

If chaff were more vulnerable to bravery then elite units would be worth more to take.

[Panzer]

I love the idea of dead walks again being on enemy kill only. It deals with the "death blossom" list without actually changing the unit. Its brilliant really.

 

 

Thing is ... the whole point of the Stratagem is to make the Poxwalker special rule trigger on your own units as well instead of just the enemy units. And to trigger it during the shooting phase as well instead of just the fighting phase. Taking the first part away makes the Stratagem kinda pointless.

Increasing the cost to 2CP or 3CP would be my first idea to balance it.

[BlackTriton]

I guess it depends what they want it to be.

If it works on friendlys, you are encouraged to take cultist and they are used as a deterent.

If its enemy only they become an agressive unit to trow at other chaff.

 

In both cases you could make a hard limit of 30 per squad. And you can make the startagem cost more. Or a mix of everything.

 

I like the enemy only because taking poxwalker no longer forces you to take cultists, potentialy freeing place for plague marine.

[Panzer]

Yeah, but it already works on enemies only without the Stratagem. That would mean just scratching the Stratagem. You don't need a Stratagem to let a rule do what it already does. The only thing it would add is that it works in the shooting phase as well but that would be an extremely minor buff and probably not worse the 1CP even.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Not quite true about it only working in the shooting phase. It creates a 7" bubble to avoid if your opponent expects attrition combat, so aggressive positioning will still be a payoff.

 

I think if they want to keep the spirit of the rule going though 3 CP is mandatory

[Panzer]

I never said it works only in the shooting phase. Quite the opposite, I said the rule only works in the fight phase and the Stratagem makes it work in the shooting phase as well. However I admit I forgot to mention that the default rule only spawns new Poxwalker if the Poxwalker themselves kill models while the Stratagem spawns Poxwalker if a model within 7" gets killed by any source.

 

But yeah if they want to keep the Stratagem as intended they can't really change how it works. Maybe a hardcap of added models per turn/phase would work but that's all I can think of. Like 5 or so. Tho I think increasing the cost to 2-3CP is the best way to solve it. That way Zombie armies can't nobrain spam it each round in combination with Cloud of Flies.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea a total of 2 CPs for guaranteed growth on death blossom lists is criminally cheap, especially when they rack up 12? 14 with the second place list?  

[BlackTriton]

Matt Root, winner of the Adepticon explained that he won againt the cultist/poxwalker list only because Nick ran out of command point at by turn 4.

Without command points his list ran out of steam and he lost a very close game.

 

If this combo was 3/4 command point instead of 2, there would not have been a poxwalker list in the top tables of Adepticon.

But Nick list was a cultist control list taillord for the specific format and terrain of that tournament, not the generic death blossom list.

I am not sure a command point increase fixes the problem, but it would help a lot for sure.

[Prot]

It’s important that you note the terrain and game type because tha5 certainly comes into play and while that tournament is well known for terrain, it’s also very dated and harkens back to an edition where partial cover and area terrain mattered.

 

I just think we’ve reached a point in 8 th where GW needs to acknowledge that unfortunately all things are not equal and puts number restrictions on units again like so many past editions.

 

There’s nothing wrong with GW admitting this. It doesn’t take away from the great stuff that 8 th has given us. It’s such an easy fix thoug and supports the background of the game nicely. It also lets none competitive players enjoy strong units without penalty.

 

30 Poxwalkers is good. 100 is insanely good.

3 Oblits are good 9 is great

Shield captains, Flyrants, etc... it’s all good in moderation.

[philsminions]

Increasing the CP to 3 would kill the stratagem, IMO.  Instead of a 'must have', it would become extremely situational; to the point, most people probably wouldn't use it at all.  I think the simplest solution is to limit unit numbers, as Prot said above.  No more than thirty at one time....having to shift 30 S5 T5 models in CC is enough for anyone to think about.  Maybe add some Fabius Bile antics?  S6 or T6 makes them even better in some situations.  lol   The issue I see with making it solely 'slain enemy' models is that PWs already have that built in with Curse of the Walking Pox....now I have to pay CPs to add "within 7 inches"?  That isn't worth 3 CPs to me; or even 2.  I'll just weather the storm, use the Blightbringer to move further next turn, and eat their brains in CC.....IF they can get there. 

 

As some have stated before, it does suck that the competitive side of things tend to exploit/ruin rules for our toy soldiers.  I haven't seen anyone besides Nick able to 'spam' walkers in that manner.....an issue I haven't seen anyone mention is the fact that he used a single unit to stretch across the board and secure multiple OBJs at one time (unless I just didn't see it, apologies).  There could be a catch all for Ob Sec rules....a unit can only secure ONE objective at any given time.  No more 'conga line' across the battlefield to grab multiple OBJs.  May not solve the problem in it's entirety, but it sure couldn't hurt?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Increasing the CP to 3 would kill the stratagem, IMO.  Instead of a 'must have', it would become extremely situational; to the point, most people probably wouldn't use it at all.  I think the simplest solution is to limit unit numbers, as Prot said above.  No more than thirty at one time....having to shift 30 S5 T5 models in CC is enough for anyone to think about.  Maybe add some Fabius Bile antics?  S6 or T6 makes them even better in some situations.  lol   The issue I see with making it solely 'slain enemy' models is that PWs already have that built in with Curse of the Walking Pox....now I have to pay CPs to add "within 7 inches"?  That isn't worth 3 CPs to me; or even 2.  I'll just weather the storm, use the Blightbringer to move further next turn, and eat their brains in CC.....IF they can get there. 

 

As some have stated before, it does suck that the competitive side of things tend to exploit/ruin rules for our toy soldiers.  I haven't seen anyone besides Nick able to 'spam' walkers in that manner.....an issue I haven't seen anyone mention is the fact that he used a single unit to stretch across the board and secure multiple OBJs at one time (unless I just didn't see it, apologies).  There could be a catch all for Ob Sec rules....a unit can only secure ONE objective at any given time.  No more 'conga line' across the battlefield to grab multiple OBJs.  May not solve the problem in it's entirety, but it sure couldn't hurt?

 

The issue is the stratagem is a must have. In any pox heavy list, the combination of DWA and CoF means that it's not just 1 unit you can't shoot, but any other chaf unit around it. Its a no brainer; 2 CP for shooting denial on multiple, Ob Sec, large units. What else can you get for 2 CP? Interrupt charge sequence? Heal d3  wounds on an infantry model/revive a single guy?  Blight Bombardment+VotLW? The last seems like the closest for value, though its super gimmicky and short ranged. Even at 3 CP DWA is insane compared to any other Strat. Nurgle's Rot is once per game and is still a 50/50 chance to deal mortal wounds; DWA reads for me "don't shoot either unit of cultists or opponent gains up to an additional 240 points that you'll have to kill again". 4 CP for the combo is a lot, sure. But it's incredibly easy to take more than one detachment and take a tallyman to try and mitigate.

 

I don't think anyone said that it should be increased CP to only effect enemy units, while a few of us (or at least just me) said to pair the enemy restriction with more range. There's no storm weathering with cloud of flies either 

[DuskRaider]

I'd much rather they nerf the stratagem than the entire unit.