Are Plague Marines Competetive?

[Panzer]

Something that just came to my mind, at least for tournaments the future of Poxwalker lists heavily depends on how well Drukhari lists will do. The Stratagem-deny Stratagem they have (Agents of Vect) would easily destroy that combo for 1-2 turns which is all they should need since most tournament matches don't go past turn 3 anyway. Just stop Cloud of Flies and ignore those pesky Cultists surrounding the Poxwalker and shoot the actual important stuff or the Poxwalker unit itself to get rid of it before it grows too big.

If Drukhari to do well enough in the tournament scene (which is entirely possible looking at the Codex previews) then Poxwalker lists would have to expect to face them regularly which would ban such lists from the top placements in tournaments all on its own. Drukhari will be the bane of any one-trick-pony lists relying on Stratagems.

[Checkmate77]

Ok, forgive my ignorance but I am still finding it hard to understand why this DWA and CoF combo is so effective.  Granted I have never tried this strategy nor seen it in action.

 

The way I see(read) it, it relies on your opponent actually obliging you by shooting/charging your chaff while this stratagem is in effect....oh and you must make sure you have your chaff units crammed within 7" of your Poxwalkers to get max effect. 

 

Unless the pox walkers and their chaff are sitting on an important objective, why not simply ignore them while stratagems are active and make the player burn through CPs?

 

Again, I'm probably missing some key piece of information that explains why this is so powerful, if someone could indulge me I'd be most grateful.

[Panzer]

Because with Cloud of Flies on a Cultist unit that's infront of the rest of your army you basically say "Shoot this unit or don't shoot at all" making your whole army pretty much immune to shooting as long as the Cultists are there. If your opponent really chews through that Cultist unit you have like 40 or so new Poxwalker for free which are even harder to kill and are a legal target for Cloud of Flies as well.

And no you don't need to cram your units within 7" of your Poxwalker. Just a few models is enough. You can easily daisy chain your units over the whole board. Simply put your new Poxwalker into the same spot you took the Cultist model from so you stay within 7" to the rest of the unit.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The tournament list that caused the nerf calls is literally only chaf and characters.

 

What makes it so powerful is the state of the game. Large, cheap units are very important to fill up battalions, provide bubble wrap and score objectives. Poxwalkers are that, but also are very good against chaf because of their mechanic and fearless. Then you bring the combo in, where your army effectively has a ton of free points and bodies, that snowball into an overwhelming horde that can be buffed further by psychic powers. You just throw them into your opponent while hitting critical mass and tie up / kill their stuff

 

Sf panzer is a bit wrong, you need to stay in close proximity. You can only place new pox close to guys that were already in the unit at the start of the turn and you can only convert if the model died within 7". So if you daisy chain you only gain a few models and quickly get stopped from making any more

[Panzer]

You can only place new pox close to guys that were already in the unit at the start of the turn

Where does it say that? Nowhere in either the Curse of the Walking Pox ability, nor in The Dead Walk Again it says you have to place the new models close to the original unit. It just says you add the models to the unit. So with each new model the unit grows and lets you add new models further and further away from the original models. The FAQ doesn't say anything about it either.

 

Theoretically if you have a big Cultist unit within 7" and your opponent kills 20 of them in one go you could create a new daisy chain of Poxwalker models right into the opponents deployment zone even.

 

And the other part about what I said isn't wrong either. Have 3 or so Cultists placed within 7" of the Poxwalker to bridge the gap to the rest of the Cultist unit and you can replace them with new Poxwalker when they die who in return bridge the gap to the Cultists, effectively increasing your 7" range.

[Checkmate77]

Ok, that is not how I read the CoF stratagem:

 

"Use this Stratagem during your Movement Phase.  Select a Deathguard Infantry unit.  Until the start of your next movement phase, enemy models can ONLY shoot this unit if it is the closest visible target."

 

Casting this on a DG unit means they effectively gain the Character trait, meaning they can only be shot at if they are the closest enemy unit.  Nowhere does it state that I can ONLY fire at the cultists. 

[Panzer]

I think that discussion was already had pretty early after the Codex got released. I can't remember in which thread tho.

[Checkmate77]

I see what SkimaskMohawk is saying;

 

As DWA only allows you to replace models who were slain within 7" of the Poxwalker unit (emphasis on models, not units) it means you must place models into the Pox Walker unit to ensure you remain within 7" or you stop gaining Poxwalkers. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I see this combo strategy being very useful in certain circumstances; i.e. the Cultists charge into CC with the poxwalkers coming up and either charging as well or staying close behind them.  This forces the CC opponent to focus on the cultist and there I see it being very effective. 

 

However for the shooting phase I'll simply ignore the cultists and the pox walkers and fire at the rest of the Army for a turn.

I'll see if I can find the thread

[Panzer]

I see what SkimaskMohawk is saying;

 

As DWA only allows you to replace models who were slain within 7" of the Poxwalker unit (emphasis on models, not units) it means you must place models into the Pox Walker unit to ensure you remain within 7" or you stop gaining Poxwalkers. 

 

 

I didn't say otherwise. However with each Poxwalker you add to the unit you 'move' the threshold of the 7" effect range. If you keep placing models towards the 'source' from where the models come from (the Cultist unit), then you won't end up without models in range of your 7".

[Checkmate77]

I think we're all in agreement just saying the same thing in a different manner  

 

I did find the COF Post.  It shows agreement that COF means the unit it is used on essentially gains the Character special rule, not that it is the only unit that can be targeted if it is closest.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340029-how-does-cloud-of-flies-work/?hl=%2Bcloud+%2Bflies&do=findComment&comment=4902536

[Panzer]

 

I did find the COF Post.  It shows agreement that COF means the unit it is used on essentially gains the Character special rule, not that it is the only unit that can be targeted if it is closest.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340029-how-does-cloud-of-flies-work/?hl=%2Bcloud+%2Bflies&do=findComment&comment=4902536

 

Welp, I guess my memories betrayed me then. :P

[BlackTriton]

From a prevuous tread:

 

Read the main rulebook FAQ - you can only place them within 2" of a model that started the phase in play. So if they kill models over multiple phases, then you can chain them out, but otherwise not really.

 

 

 

Q: Some rules allow me to add models to a unit during the

battle (e.g. the Poxwalker’s Curse of the Walking Pox ability).

Where are those models set up?

 

A: Unless otherwise stated, these new models are placed

anywhere that is more than 1" from any enemy model

and still within unit coherency of a model in its own unit

that was itself on the battlefield at the start of the phase

in which the new model was created. Note that if you

cannot set up a new model on the battlefield because

there is no room, it is simply not set up

[Panzer]

From a prevuous tread:

 

Read the main rulebook FAQ - you can only place them within 2" of a model that started the phase in play. So if they kill models over multiple phases, then you can chain them out, but otherwise not really.

 

 

 

Q: Some rules allow me to add models to a unit during the

battle (e.g. the Poxwalker’s Curse of the Walking Pox ability).

Where are those models set up?

 

A: Unless otherwise stated, these new models are placed

anywhere that is more than 1" from any enemy model

and still within unit coherency of a model in its own unit

that was itself on the battlefield at the start of the phase

in which the new model was created. Note that if you

cannot set up a new model on the battlefield because

there is no room, it is simply not set up

 

Alright, I didn't think about checking the main rules FAQ for that. Guess today's not my day lol

[BlackTriton]

The pox walker list used to great effect at adepticon was in fact a cultist list featuring Abaddon. The character dis all the heavy lifting but it had next to no killing power. If cloud of fly was played, the oposition had only cultist to shoot at.

It was not a list made to table the oponnent, or an easy list to play. it was a list made for the objectives on the terrain poor table of the adepticon that worked only in the hands of a very talented player in the specific Meta and conditions unique to Adepticon.

 

However, it is the best value for point that any army can pull out of their troops, and that is the problem.

[Plaguecaster]

Well the new Termite from FW that we can take could be very interesting for plague marine squads, they could be like our drop pods using Subterranean Assult to get plasma or blight squads right in the midst of the enemy. Probably not that competitive but could be a really nice way of getting Plague marines to where they need be without the risk of getting shot up on the way in walking or their transport destroyed.

 

Though of course since chaos can't have things without stupid rules there is a chance for one model to be eaten as it disembarks though you can choose what gets eaten so since it has a capacity of 12 you could easily take a 10 man squad with a couple of characters whilst something may get eaten there is no way it'll be the characters at least

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/PDF/Downloads//Hellforged_Termite_40k.pdf

[Wolf Lord Loki]

I love the whole 'it eats a model' rule

 

I just have this image of the last guy out the door being grabbed by tentacles an dragged back in.

Loud crunching noises ensue and the rest of the squad all do their best not to look around

[bozo69pd]

Thing is this list Nanavati built plays to the objectives (as DG are prone to do) so it is really just a case of abusing this particular scenario. If you take this list into a Kill point only game it falls flat on its face.

 

I also think if you have a pure melee world eaters or space wolf force it would just shred right through all of these poxwalkers and characters without even breaking a stride on turn 1. The list is actually just and ITC abusing joke. That is why I don't bother with ITC too much anymore, all it is is a game of finding the most abusable list pertaining to their very very specific rules that everyone knows.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Kill points as a primary mission/main way of scoring is a joke. Its literally the lowest form of tactical skill "can you only kill your opponent?". Especially in this edition where every gun can split fire, theres way more efficiency when you don't have to direct all 4 lascannons at that venom or raider

 

I don't know how a pure melee force would get in range to assault turn 1, let alone through the cultists, but you know.

[bozo69pd]

Kill points as a primary mission/main way of scoring is a joke. Its literally the lowest form of tactical skill "can you only kill your opponent?". Especially in this edition where every gun can split fire, theres way more efficiency when you don't have to direct all 4 lascannons at that venom or raider

 

I don't know how a pure melee force would get in range to assault turn 1, let alone through the cultists, but you know.

Skill or not these are legitimate rulebook missions that are ignored for so called "Balanced" ITC rules. Don't get me wrong I really appreciate the ITC and what it is trying to do, but in my opinion it has some failures (although it is doing better than it did in 6th and 7th). If you have a variety of missions that can punish enemies for derp spamming hordes or fast attack, then GREAT! That is a preventative method right there for abuse.

 

As for how do melee forces get in range to assault turn 1 and get through cultist bubblewrap, COUGH COUGH JETBIKES. Dark Eldar especially should help us out here shortly.

 

I will however be INCREDIBLY DISAPPOINTED if they nerf the base unit of pox walkers or cultists instead of the stratagem alongside adding an army that is completely going to punish hordes (Dark Eldar).

[DominikB]

 

 

Kill points as a primary mission/main way of scoring is a joke. Its literally the lowest form of tactical skill "can you only kill your opponent?". Especially in this edition where every gun can split fire, theres way more efficiency when you don't have to direct all 4 lascannons at that venom or raider

 

I don't know how a pure melee force would get in range to assault turn 1, let alone through the cultists, but you know.

Skill or not these are legitimate rulebook missions that are ignored for so called "Balanced" ITC rules. Don't get me wrong I really appreciate the ITC and what it is trying to do, but in my opinion it has some failures (although it is doing better than it did in 6th and 7th). If you have a variety of missions that can punish enemies for derp spamming hordes or fast attack, then GREAT! That is a preventative method right there for abuse.

 

As for how do melee forces get in range to assault turn 1 and get through cultist bubblewrap, COUGH COUGH JETBIKES. Dark Eldar especially should help us out here shortly.

 

I will however be INCREDIBLY DISAPPOINTED if they nerf the base unit of pox walkers or cultists instead of the stratagem alongside adding an army that is completely going to punish hordes (Dark Eldar).

ITC missions are balanced to essentially take a bad draw away from you. The amount of times a maelstrom game was lost in seventh because I get picking up one pointers and my opponent d3/D6 pointers drove me mad :P I love maelstrom for more relaxed games but at ITC level you need to not have people lose at least due to bad luck of objectives.

 

Does this seem to throw the meta into one direction? Yes, but I’m not sure it’s just the missions it’s also simply what’s reliable, tougher troops are just not worth it imo they die too fast For me espesially with the -1 weapons flying about

[bozo69pd]

Yup DominikB. Missions cause point swings. I remember the first time I played an ITC mission in 8th and I brought a baneblade variant. It ended up being the easiest 4 points ever for my opponent to score (deep striking fire dragons I think he ended up having) while I was struggling to even find a 4th secondary objective that I could possibly score with. Needless to say after that game I stuck that baneblade (one of my favorite models I own) deep in the closet, and said "F this. Bring out the Malefic Lord spam."

 

I feel like I have basically done the same thing with my plague marines.

[SkimaskMohawk]

...but why didn't you bubble wrap it? Like that's a huge misplay in 8th, to not bubble wrap against a list that has access to stratagem deepstrike.

[bozo69pd]

...but why didn't you bubble wrap it? Like that's a huge misplay in 8th, to not bubble wrap against a list that has access to stratagem deepstrike.

 

Because I only had plague Marines. And all 3 units were on objectives.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I get what you're trying to say, that to generate points reliably you usually need to keep control of the objectives for ITC.

 

But what I'm trying to say is that regardless of ITC, you really didn't have any sort of bubble wrap unit in your list, which is really important when playing with high value units vs deepstrike and shooting lists in general of which plague marine lists generally are. Unless all kitted with axes and flails, having your marines tied up really sucks since you lose all that special weapon fire.

 

Now your opponent wouldn't have gotten such an obvious advantage in a normal objective based game or whatever, but getting a huge points return for those fire dragons is still a nice lead.

 

Idk, I started screening with cultists after the first time my buddy just charged all my guys with genestealers and a broodlord and ate them.

[Sheesh Mode]

Pox walkers are simply suitable for the current ITC missions. I personally am very interested in the Termite Assault Drill's strategic and tactical utility. Plague Marines biggest issue is their speed but a cheap, deadly, and durable drop pod could really change that.