Are Plague Marines Competetive?

[bozo69pd]

I get what you're trying to say, that to generate points reliably you usually need to keep control of the objectives for ITC.

 

But what I'm trying to say is that regardless of ITC, you really didn't have any sort of bubble wrap unit in your list, which is really important when playing with high value units vs deepstrike and shooting lists in general of which plague marine lists generally are. Unless all kitted with axes and flails, having your marines tied up really sucks since you lose all that special weapon fire.

 

Now your opponent wouldn't have gotten such an obvious advantage in a normal objective based game or whatever, but getting a huge points return for those fire dragons is still a nice lead.

 

Idk, I started screening with cultists after the first time my buddy just charged all my guys with genestealers and a broodlord and ate them.

Yes 100% true.  However I use this example towards this topic of are Plague Marines competitive? Your rebuttal is not really, instead what is needed is cultist and pox walker bubblewrap. Hence whenever I play now I use cultist and pox walker bubblewrap, spitterdrone spam, flying daemon princes, allied nurgle herald with plaguebearers and nurglings. Bubblewrap all over the board, and great objective scoring. Plague marines are demoted to the shoe box under the bed.

 

 

Pox walkers are simply suitable for the current ITC missions. I personally am very interested in the Termite Assault Drill's strategic and tactical utility. Plague Marines biggest issue is their speed but a cheap, deadly, and durable drop pod could really change that.

Yes Sheesh, I am hoping to convert a drill and see if I can make 1 unit of CC PM, or allied possessed work.

[Plaguecaster]

Pox walkers are simply suitable for the current ITC missions. I personally am very interested in the Termite Assault Drill's strategic and tactical utility. Plague Marines biggest issue is their speed but a cheap, deadly, and durable drop pod could really change that.

Same, plan on picking up a couple to use Subterranean assult to get a couple of plague marine squads with plasma joined combi plasma lords inside as well right into the midst of the enemy where they can do heaps of damage overcharging their plasma I think I may even drop my Blight haulers from my list to fit them in as getting Plague marines to where they need to be will be far more useful to me then using single haulers supporting a squad like I have been

[DuskRaider]

Termites would be excellent for getting CC Plague Marines (with IC support) into the enemy ASAP.

[bozo69pd]

Termites would be excellent for getting CC Plague Marines (with IC support) into the enemy ASAP.

Is there any way to make their charge more reliable? They cannot charge after disembarking that vehicle right?

[Panzer]

 

Termites would be excellent for getting CC Plague Marines (with IC support) into the enemy ASAP.

Is there any way to make their charge more reliable? They cannot charge after disembarking that vehicle right?

 

 

Sure they can. You just don't disembark the turn the Termite arrives on the battlefield so have to sit and wait for a turn protected by T8 Sv3+.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

As written the transported unit can't disembark when it arrives anyway can it?

 

I was under the impression disembark happened before movement, where as this arrives at the end of your movement phase

[Checkmate77]

I unfortunately can't pull up the rules from work, is this a CSM transport or a truly dedicated Death Guard Transport? 

[Panzer]

Exactly. Unlike Drop Pods it doesn't say the unit disembarks at arrival so you have to wait a turn.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

I unfortunately can't pull up the rules from work, is this a CSM transport or a truly dedicated Death Guard Transport?

Chaos space marines. It has the <LEGION> key word

[Sheesh Mode]

 

 

Sure they can. You just don't disembark the turn the Termite arrives on the battlefield so have to sit and wait for a turn protected by T8 Sv3+.

Drop Typhus and an allied Sorcer nearby to cast, miasma of pestilence on it, and prescience on it to get 10 plague marines, a foul blightspawn and a Biologus Putrifier in deep then blow the dumb thing up during your opponent's shooting phase. After that cast Putrescent Vitality, Blades of Putrefaction, and prescience on the marines and use Blight Bombardment while in range of the Fugaris Helmed Chaos Lord in terminator armor. Shoot and charge with two uses of Veterans of the Long War and kill a ton of things while forcing major investment from your opponent. 

 

Meanwhile the real work is being done by the cultists, mortars, nurglings, and chaos spawn to hold objectives and score points. 

 

Oh boy. That sounds like a fluffy and competitive use of Plague Marines. 

[McElMcNinja]

Because it sits for a turn, you will need to prevent it from being surrounded so you can disembark. Also you have to ensure your opponent doesn't move away from it. I assume this can be done by either placing it near an objective your opponent needs or by placing something just as nasty nearby, forcing your opponent to choose the lesser of 2 evils.

I really like the potential this has and plan on using a proxy until I can get one.

[Panzer]

If the opponent moves away from it it's fine as well. That's lots of open space you just secured by doing basically nothing lol

If he wants to surround it ... well give it the two heavy flamer so he either gets ~7 S5 AP-1 auto-hits on Overwatch or he has to at least make an 8" charge (odds are under 50% to make it).

[Wolf Lord Loki]

I guess maybe use in pairs end to end so they can't be wrapped around (and block line of site)

 

Or pair with something like blightlord terminators so charging enemies can't wrap around and you have a strong beach head right on your foes doorstep

[Sheesh Mode]

I guess maybe use in pairs end to end so they can't be wrapped around (and block line of site)

 

Or pair with something like blightlord terminators so charging enemies can't wrap around and you have a strong beach head right on your foes doorstep

Drop 30 Plague Bearers next to it. 

[DuskRaider]

They're cheap enough points wise that you might as well take 2 or 3. Target saturation, gentlemen... it's not an easy target if there are a bunch of them with their Bloat Drone buddies flying up the board to provide assistance that you know is going to hit your front line next turn (not to mention anything else deep striking in). They're durable enough that you shouldn't lose more than one in a turn. 

[Sheesh Mode]

They're cheap enough points wise that you might as well take 2 or 3. Target saturation, gentlemen... it's not an easy target if there are a bunch of them with their Bloat Drone buddies flying up the board to provide assistance that you know is going to hit your front line next turn (not to mention anything else deep striking in). They're durable enough that you shouldn't lose more than one in a turn. 

You'll lose two if you are facing an opponent with a properly built army. 

 

Necrons, Eldar, Tyranids, Guard, Sisters of Battle.

 

You know the lists.

[DuskRaider]

Good point and don't remind me, lol

[Prot]

Regardless of my own personal feelings about Plague Marines, I have to ask.... what is the plan once you get there?

 

I ask this legitimately because I find my own Plague Marines are best at mid range firefights, and although I love the Flail, I’m not a fan of fists, and other armies do CC much better. I do think Blightlaunchers are under appreciated.

 

Thinking of aggressive Plague Marines makes me wonder about Biologus and a wack of grenades, or changing the list to support with Blightlords. Maybe Rhino ‘s and flamers? I have no idea.

 

I just had a game where I tried to emphasize Plague Marines. I did not take Rhinos. I tried my trick with the 3 myphitic Blight Haulers instead and a good supporting cast. I managed to fit in 5 Blightlords with plasma.

 

I would hit the Blight Haulers with -1 to hit, but I was playing Cadians and to be honest I took pictures and was for no to do a full batrep but the game was so boring to play, and so one sided, it would have been a horrible read. Astra is a massive problem for my Death Guard.

 

I thought I would test the limits of my Plague Marines survivability and getting to even mid table with the bulk of the army was a grind. I could feel the game was lost. So I had to push but the layers of conscripts and flame tanks, etc were far too much.

 

Being able to disengage and get back in the fight just gave bucks TS of lascannons a clean shot at my DP. My Plague Marines as usual did nearly nothing. A few wild pot shots at tanks. And a few Bolters at conscripts. That was about it.

 

As a side note this is about the 10th time I’ve tried plasma over combimelta on my Blightlords and it really hurt me to do so. I think my experiment with that is very over.

 

I lost my spitter drone in turn one, even in ruin cover I lost the darn thing and I’ve always hated how easily those things blow up. The resulting wounds were ugly.

 

My mower drone limped into frontline combat with a chimera, opened it up but I was stuck in CC forever with Ogryns w/ shields and a priest.

 

As a side note I did an experiment because I’ve always felt Ogryn this edition are a little too good... we did playtest rounds of CC with Ogryn vs 3 Allarus Terminators. Ogryns are a little too good for their points imo.

 

Anyway the game was a grind and I took that risk to push through but he still had so much left.....all these deep striking special weapons teams ripped the army to shreds. Rerolling Cadian trait is pretty sick and he still had multiple tanks including the Funisher. I just had no chance.

 

At that point I conceded and it really wasn’t even close. But I find Astra one of the strongest codexes in the game and wasn’t surprised at all.

 

What I did learn about this is Blight Haulers have a few problems that will probably prevent me from using them in competitive games in the future. And in there place I do think 2 Rhinos is the way to go.

[McElMcNinja]

As a fan of the haulers, I am curious what happened with them.

I agree that rhinos are a great way to make Death Guard more mobile and that meltas on Blightlords are better then plasma. Combi-meltas and a Blight Launcher means you can be advancing and shooting if your targets keep moving away.

[Checkmate77]

Thanks for sharing your experiences Prot,

 

I too would be interested in what weaknesses you experienced with the MBH as I hope to use a few of them in future lists. 

 

Also, (while not part exactly on topic) why Melta's over Plasma Guns?  If they are running without a Lord to provide Rerolls then I understand, but if you have a Terminator Lord allowing you to overcharge your Plasma's (with relative safety) doesn't that provide you with more versatility?

[Prot]

Well I think the plasma/Melta debate is not a clear one for everyone. So let me state that right away to diffuse any bickering... Now that being said....

 

When I started playing my 8th edition Death Guard, I right away keyed into Blightlords because I'm a huge termie fan and they have a rare survivability with DG (This is pre-Custodes of course). 

 

I researched what people were doing with their combi load out and heard a very favourable, almost 'must have' mantra about plasma. 

 

In my experiences it continued to fail me over and over, because my main problem is not elite infantry, it is T7-T8 'monsters' or super heavies, or the equivalent of Leman Russes, or Nid super bugs. 

 

I found Plasma overcharged was 'okay'. Regular plasma was/is downright horrid. Without a Lord... forget it. Even so, I come across so much -1 to hit, it's just not worth it.

On the other hand I found 2 Melta's have a very strong place in my typical lists.  The argument of getting within 12" can be valid but with enough practice it's very usable. They operate independently -much- better in my opinion.

 

+++++++++++++

Blighthaulers. Since I kept casting -1 to hit on them, my opponent got rid of the Spitter drone first, then turned all anti-tank on the Blighthaulers. Re-rolls on top of re-rolls they never really stood a chance. Cadia is crazy strong. Double rolling Basi's + Manticore, took care of a lot of stuff. The infantry (re-rolling all to hit) in ruins with lascannons were really impossible to gut. I couldn't get my termies close with melta devil dogs, and flame tanks running anti-assault duty.

 

By the time the specialists dropped in with plasma, I had no vehicles.

[bozo69pd]

Sounds like a familiar tune to me Prot. I really just try to focus on getting the spitterdrones into combat asap, to help them from getting shot at. I think the biggest fail to me for the haulers was running units of 3.  I thought that hitting on 3+ would be so good, but then my Altaioc opponent just unloaded his whole army on them (even with miasma on them) until one died, then I couldn't hit anything with them for the rest of the game. -1 to hit on msu is soooo good.

[Checkmate77]

So, combining the new FAQ with this thread; Two-part-question:

 

1) Has this changed anything in regards to the discussion we were having regarding Poxwalkers/cultists over PMs?  I think it has....slightly......it doesn't really address the large horde benefits so I would still foresee cultists being a go-to unit.

 

2) If we do run PMs how do we support them now? I'm still a fan of MBHs, and am considering running two, but from the experiences mentioned above I'm now second guessing that decision......plus, the points for 3 of these is just a massive tax though. 

[BlackTriton]

Some of the advantage of cultist are mitigated by the FAQ; there is now less need to screen, no need to spam cultist for CP, you do not need as much cultist for the poxwalker farm.

It all help pushing pague marine as a relevant choice.

 

I like a blighthauler a a complement to a plague marine squad, at least in theory. But a unit of 3 is never worth it? Its so unnatural, the only compeling reason to get 3 is a rule on the datasheet that you feel bad to ignore, and probably pay some points for.

 

Also, I like the idea to leave some points in your list open to create more poxwalker, and if the enemy do not shoot the cultist, use the point to summon daemon.

[DominikB]

Some of the advantage of cultist are mitigated by the FAQ; there is now less need to screen, no need to spam cultist for CP, you do not need as much cultist for the poxwalker farm.

It all help pushing pague marine as a relevant choice.

 

I like a blighthauler a a complement to a plague marine squad, at least in theory. But a unit of 3 is never worth it? Its so unnatural, the only compeling reason to get 3 is a rule on the datasheet that you feel bad to ignore, and probably pay some points for.

 

Also, I like the idea to leave some points in your list open to create more poxwalker, and if the enemy do not shoot the cultist, use the point to summon daemon.

My problem with the BH is that I get a PBC for 2 points less so it’s hard for me to rationalise the BH even if has slightly different shooting. I know the bubble is good with PMs, but I feel I get more reliability especially in ITC with 3 PBC and PWs instead