Equivalent Points costs for our Stratgems

[Gentlemanloser]

Interesting thought crossed my mind.  Now we have (all be it Beta) points for a Lastrum Storm Bolter (S5, AP-1, D1) that has the exact same stats as our Storm Bolters with Psybolt Ammunition, we can see just how many points Psybolts are 'worth'.

 

Best case scenario, the Psybolt Ammo strat is used on a squad of 10, all armed with Storm Bolters.

 

A SB costs 2 points.  A Lastrum SB costs 5.

 

So in the best case scenario, our 2CP Strat is worth a measly 30 point upgrade.  Or 15 points per CP.

 

 

Sadly there's no Imperial S8, Ap-2, D1 weapon I could find at a quick glance, to make a simple comparison to a Psycannon with Psychic Onslaught.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Danarc]

Please give us back our Psybolt point value ammunition. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Indeed.  S5, AP-1, D1 Storm Bolters now exist, and we should have the option to 'upgrade' to them via points.

[Holier Than Thou]

Which I have asked for in every piece of feedback I have given Games Workshop, and which has and will continue to be ignored I'm sure.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well we've got the Strat now.  I doubt that will change anytime soon.

 

But it should def be 1CP.  2CP for a 30 point upgrade at best.  That's, :cuss.

[Holier Than Thou]

Oh, I know we have the Stratagem but it's something that should be an upgrade, not something 1 unit can use per turn, usually a maximum of once per game due to GKs native lack of CPs. Make it infantry Stormbolters only so that vehicles cannot abuse it.

[Danarc]

Yes, we DO need this kind of improvement. 

But I agree with Gentleman, since we have the stratagem the only modify doable is changing the cost from 2 to 1 CP. 

moreover with the psybolt GW will improve an already good and abused unit.

[Ninjoe42]

Where are they talking about a lastrum storm bolter for 8th edition?

[Holier Than Thou]

In the Custodes beta rules, from Warhammer Community (which I can't seem to link to for some reason).

 

Incidently, anyone notice the Dreadspear does the job of our Greathammer only better (one less AP but without a -1 to hit) and has an inbuilt shooting mode that is D3 shots, strength 9, AP-3, D3 damage for only 35 points more than we pay just for our Hammer (+ obligatory Fist)?

Edited February 23, 2018 by Holier Than Thou

[Ninjoe42]

Just...more custodes stuff huh? Whatever, maybe if we're lucky March will give us access too

[Capt. Mytre]

When balancing the points for the upgrade, you need to consider the cost of the base unit. For example, custards don't have a "cheap" platform to spam their bolters with. We do, in the form of PAGK. Keep in mind that RF2 S5 AP -1 D1 is super potent - a 10 man squad will kill most infantry squads. +5 points per model is probably good. Psycannons and Psilencers wouldn't get an upgrade as Psycannons already fire those rounds and Psilencers fire mind bullets. I'd also make one for "heavy" weapons, such as HB/Autocannons/Hurricane Bolters/Assault Cannons that costs ~20 points for the same +1S -1AP.

 

On a side note, I had an idea that if Psybolt ammunition became a upgrade, you could have a stratagem (say, 2-3cp) that you could then use as a "supply drop", and upgrade a squad for the rest of the game. It would be "free points" however.

[Gentlemanloser]

Cap, we don't have to consider the base platform.  All Imperium wargear has standardised costs (baring a few outliers).

 

All SB cost 2 points, regardless if they are on a Marine, GK, Guardsman, SoB, Inquisitor or acolyte.

 

All Lastrum SB are now 5 points, across the Imperium and regardless if who is using them.

 

As for the Dreadspear.  That thing costs 75 points...  For those points it needs some innate rerolls, and the ability to take me out for dinner.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Holier Than Thou]

Yes, it costs 75 points and will hit on a 2+ to start with, both in melee and with it's Lascannon-esque shooting. It's cheap at 75 points.

[Capt. Mytre]

Cap, we don't have to consider the base platform.  All Imperium wargear has standardised costs (baring a few outliers).

 

All SB cost 2 points, regardless if they are on a Marine, GK, Guardsman, SoB, Inquisitor or acolyte.

 

All Lastrum SB are now 5 points, across the Imperium and regardless if who is using them.

 

As for the Dreadspear.  That thing costs 75 points...  For those points it needs some innate rerolls, and the ability to take me out for dinner.

 

Well, that's a problem in and of itself (ie, domino balancing effect) and efficiency of weapons being vastly different base on the platform.

 

...but sure, it's Imperium wide, however they never had to consider any other army was going to bring those weapons, so they are specifically costed assuming they are mounted on Custards.

 

That's why our Nemesis Force Weapons don't have a cost, they are inbuilt into our unit cost. If they were to make them available to other armies, you would see them given a points costs. Imagine giving SM access to NFW, it would be a free upgrade if you were correct - which is a ridiculous notion - they would be costed similarly as a Force Weapon.

[Gentlemanloser]

Totally.  Nemesis Daemonhammers are 25 points IIRC on Inquisitors.

 

Rather than the 13 points they are.

[Capt. Mytre]

Totally.  Nemesis Daemonhammers are 25 points IIRC on Inquisitors.

 

Rather than the 13 points they are.

 

So you're agreeing with me that you need to take into account the platform?

[Danarc]

Actually no. Since inquisitor is equipped with a termy armour, I think that NDH should cost less than a GM or any other GK PI. 

According to this, there is no platform account, but only mistakes.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh no Capt, that there are some outliers instances, like Nemesis Weapons.

 

They should never have been zero cost in the first place, we all know they have an inbuilt cost of around 6 points.

 

I do agree that the current design, same cost across the Imperial range, is a problem.

 

As exposed by the Razorback/Assault Cannon nerfing.

 

But that's what we have. :(

[Capt. Mytre]

Oh no Capt, that there are some outliers instances, like Nemesis Weapons.

 

They should never have been zero cost in the first place, we all know they have an inbuilt cost of around 6 points.

 

I do agree that the current design, same cost across the Imperial range, is a problem.

 

As exposed by the Razorback/Assault Cannon nerfing.

 

But that's what we have.

 

I'm arguing what should be done, ie, what's most balanced.

 

You're taking this weird middle ground stance of "we want this, but using the current system" which results in a absolutely broken result which would never see the light of day.

 

If you want that statline for our guns, it won't come in as a 3pts upgrade. You can say it's "worth" that much, but mathwise, it's worth far more.

 

Whatever you've said, doesn't change the fact that like NFS, these stormbolters are costed assuming that only custards will use them.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Capt. Mytre

[Gentlemanloser]

If that was the case, like Unique models wargear and NFW, the Lastrum SB would be 0 cost and the base cost of the Contemptors increased.

 

We have no possible way to prove that the cost of the Lastrum SB is based on them only being available to the AC, and not a generic Imperium wide cost, like almost every other bit of Imperial wargear.

 

I'm more interested in noting that 1CP is 'worth' 15 points, for this Strat.

 

Which seems wildly undervalued.

[Holier Than Thou]

On a full squad. If you used the stratagem on the last man in a squad (I know, you never would, but still) it becomes equivalent to being worth 1.5 points per Command Point.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yeah, I was always looking at the best case scenario for it. :)

[Capt. Mytre]

It's a meaningless calculation, it isn't set on a balanced system and it makes too many assumptions. You don't even factor in that their weapon is available constantly, while ours is a single turn.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

S5 AP-1 D1 is broken huh? Strange, I don't see heavy bolters being spammed, regardless of platform.

 

TBH, due to being 2CP and very cornercase, I rarely use 'Psybolt'. Mostly I'm using 'Psychic Onslaught' on my GMDK's instead.

 

Even if it was a wargear upgrade, it still only makes storm bolters somewhat better. Not amazingly better.

[Capt. Mytre]

S5 AP-1 D1 is broken huh? Strange, I don't see heavy bolters being spammed, regardless of platform.

 

TBH, due to being 2CP and very cornercase, I rarely use 'Psybolt'. Mostly I'm using 'Psychic Onslaught' on my GMDK's instead.

 

Even if it was a wargear upgrade, it still only makes storm bolters somewhat better. Not amazingly better.

 

Geez, lets ignore everything else I said? It would be a broken upgrade for 3 points. Even comparing it to a heavy bolter is a poorly thought out comparison. The HB costs far more, the SB has +1 shots in RF, the HB is "heavy", the HB cannot be enmassed to fire 40 shots for the cost of a 10 man strike squad while retaining the same survivability, most weapon options have superior weapon choices where a HB can be taken. If you could take a HB on 10 guys for 3 points each that wasn't heavy, you totally would.

 

The reason you don't use the stratagem is because you don't know how good it is combined with the fact that it's expensive and the army struggles to gain CP. If we were like any decent army, and it was properly costed, we would have 9cp+ and you would happily throw 1cp away to kill a whole 10 man enemy marine squad after teleport striking.

 

You don't get how good 40 x S5 AP-1 DMG1 is, it's incredibly versatile. On average, that's: 15 light infantry dead, 9 medium infantry dead, 3 (2W) heavy infantry dead, almost 7 wounds to a light vehicle, 4.5 to a medium and 3 wounds to a heavy.