Explorer 1's Journey to the Games Workshop GT Final

[Explorer1]

So I have been running 15 DC with all bolter/chainsword and 10 SG with 5 fists and 5 swords. I point the DC at chaff and light armor and the SG at Big Scary Things. I don't normally run an Ancient but with my Smashwings nearby giving them re-rolls to hit, the SG unit can delete whatever it is that needs to die.

 

I'll run a Libby to give them the +1 attack but even if it doesn't go off that is 20 attacks that have a high likelihood of hitting and wounding. Anything short of a Primarch or Super-Heavy I tend to outright kill and even then, if it isn't dead it's been severely crippled.

 

How do you find managing the Bubble from your Warlord on the Sang Guard? I've found that because its model within 6" rather than unit, its tricky. If I had the points I think Dante would be much better.

[Panda_Saurus_Rex]

 

So I have been running 15 DC with all bolter/chainsword and 10 SG with 5 fists and 5 swords. I point the DC at chaff and light armor and the SG at Big Scary Things. I don't normally run an Ancient but with my Smashwings nearby giving them re-rolls to hit, the SG unit can delete whatever it is that needs to die.

 

I'll run a Libby to give them the +1 attack but even if it doesn't go off that is 20 attacks that have a high likelihood of hitting and wounding. Anything short of a Primarch or Super-Heavy I tend to outright kill and even then, if it isn't dead it's been severely crippled.

 

How do you find managing the Bubble from your Warlord on the Sang Guard? I've found that because its model within 6" rather than unit, its tricky. If I had the points I think Dante would be much better.

 

 

 

Well I've definitely been playing that wrong. I thought it was the unit like every other bubble in the world. That's pretty dumb, however, they still get to re-roll 1's so it isn't a complete waste.

 

Edit: Also, I tend to drop them in together anyway so I don't see this as too much of an issue going forward. But yea...wow.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Panda_Saurus_Rex

[Explorer1]

 

 

So I have been running 15 DC with all bolter/chainsword and 10 SG with 5 fists and 5 swords. I point the DC at chaff and light armor and the SG at Big Scary Things. I don't normally run an Ancient but with my Smashwings nearby giving them re-rolls to hit, the SG unit can delete whatever it is that needs to die.

 

I'll run a Libby to give them the +1 attack but even if it doesn't go off that is 20 attacks that have a high likelihood of hitting and wounding. Anything short of a Primarch or Super-Heavy I tend to outright kill and even then, if it isn't dead it's been severely crippled.

 

How do you find managing the Bubble from your Warlord on the Sang Guard? I've found that because its model within 6" rather than unit, its tricky. If I had the points I think Dante would be much better.

 

 

 

Well I've definitely been playing that wrong. I thought it was the unit like every other bubble in the world. That's pretty dumb, however, they still get to re-roll 1's so it isn't a complete waste.

 

Edit: Also, I tend to drop them in together anyway so I don't see this as too much of an issue going forward. But yea...wow.

 

Yeah, it's a pain in the neck. The FNP banner is the same - model, not unit. The trouble I found was when you deep strike them in. You use Descent of Angels on the guard, and they usually make their charge but, unless the Ancient also makes the charge, then maybe only 1 or 2 of the Guard get re-rolls from Heirs, and a 5++ from the banner. 

[Explorer1]

So, I'm starting to think about the next evolution of my list. As I mentioned there are a few things I need to think about, and I'm going to share some thoughts on a couple of topics, to see where it take me. Please chime in. The more eyes and brains working onto issue, the better (hopefully) the list will be.

 

The first thing I want to talk about are screens. As an army that predominantly deep strikes, and (worse) needs to charge from those deep strikes to deal damage, I hate screens! However, if I'm to do well at the GT, I need to work out how to beat them so I can deliver a Thunder Hammer of Justice to the Emperors foes. 

 

To be clear, what I mean are units positioned to push back deep strikers, and units strung out in front important units, that force you to charge them first, before you can kill the stuff hiding behind them. For my army to work at it’s full potential, I need to get better at clearing screens.

 

What are Screens?

 

As I see it there are broadly 2 types of screens. First there are the “normal” ones. By this I mean units of chaff strung in front of important units, to stop you charging them. A good example was Game 2 at DM5. My opponent strung 30 guardsmen across the board in front of his Knights. If I dropped down in front of the Knights, I need to clear the guardsmen, before I can assault the Knights. This particular opponent is pretty crafty, because he always makes sure that his Knights are more than 3 inches behind his guardsmen. What that means is I can’t even declare the Knights as a target when I charge, as they’re more than 12” away. Why is that important? Well, it’s important becasue if I could declare them as a target, I could wipe the guardsmen, then consolidate into the Knight, trigger Honour the Chaptes, to allow me to fight again, and then smack the Knight with some Thunder Hammers.

 

The 2nd type of screen is having some random guys standing around, zoning off the board - buy this I mean having enough units hanging around that I can’t get within 9 inches of anything. Again, my game 2 at DM5 was a good example. As mentioned above, my opponent had a string of guardsmen in front of his Knights to stop me dropping down in front of them and charging. However, that wouldn’t stop me dropping down behind them. However, he was wise to this and had dotted random chaff units around in his backfield to zone of everything behind his Knights and Guardsmen. So the only place I could drop was in front of the Guardsmen.

 

There’s another “trick”. Some untis can deploy outside of your deployment zone, pushing deep strikers back even further. For example, Eldar Rangers can deploy before the first turn, in “no mans land”, which create an 18” bubble of “no deep striking”. The best untis for this are untis that can deploy into no man’s land during deployment - e.g. Space Marine Scouts and Nurglings”. 

 

Using a combination of all these strategies allows an opponent to deny you a huge area of the board to deep striking units.

 

What to do about them?

 

Bluntly, I’m not entirely sure! All three games I lost at DM5 we’re largely because of effective screening. 

 

Simply stated, I need to work out how to kill screens before my damage dealing units come down. That means I need units that can kill lots of (typically) low toughness, high save models (e.g. Guardsmen, Scouts, Nurglings, Cultists) quickly and efficiently. But it’s not quite as simple as that. The screen killers need to be able to kill both types of screens. Being able to kill a line of Guardsmen is different from being able to kill three units of Nurglings 18” apart in no man’s land. For example, a unit of Death Company can come down and easily kill a line of guardsmen. However, it’s harder for them to kill 3 untis of 3 Nurglings bases when the first one is 36” away from the third one!! 

 

Which means I need multiple ways to kill them. 

 

And the screens killers will most likely die to retaliation next turn, so either they need to be efficient i.e. I dont care if they die ‘cause they’ve done their job, or have a way to protect themsevles from that retaliation. 

 

The Solution?

 

I dont know if it’s THE solution, but it’s what I’m going to try. 

 

Firstly, the best cure is prevention!! I need to use my Scouts more agressivly, punching them as far forward as possible to stop my opponent deploying anything into no mans land. Easier against units that infiltrate into no mans land (e.g. rangers), harder against units that deploy into no mans land (e.g. Nurglings). For units that deploy into no mans land, I’m thinking about taking a 10 man untis of scouts so I can zone off a larger area with one deployment.

 

But back to killing screens. In the army I’m thinking about I will have 3 Screen Clearer’s - the 15 man unit of Death Company, the Mortars, and a unit of 6 Assault Bolter Inceptors. 

 

The Death Company I’ll use against big units, strung out in front of my opponents army, or against units placed close together. I can string out the DC, and multi charge all of them. With descent of Angels, and re-rolls from Lemartes a 9” charge is pretty reliable. They also have 30 bolter shots that will also help thin out the horde. The problem of course is that the DC will be targeted with extreme prejudice by my opponent. They are only Marines after all, and will die in droves. The secret then is to try and “take a prisoner” i.e. trap a unit so it can’t fall back, which means my opponent can’t shoot the DC next turn. Easier said than done on occasion. I did it regularly with my Harlies, and when it works, it's "golden".

 

The other beauty of using the DC is that they work against tougher screens because of the sheer volume of attacks, and +1 to wound from Red Thirst. It’s also easier to exploit any mistakes made by your opponent in placeing their screen, with an assault unit - e.g. if they place the units their screening too close to the screen. 

 

I’ll use the Mortars for anything really, but typically for low toughness, high save units (Guardmsen, Cultists), that are spread out, denying landing zones. The Mortar’s protection is that they’re in the backfield, and (hopefully) out of line of sight. 

 

Finally, the Inceptors can kinda do both jobs, as long as they get within 18”. I’m planning to run either Dante, or another Captain to baby sit them, for re-rolls to hit. The plan is to land them in cover for an enhanced save, and hope that their T5 and natural 3+ save will keep them alive. A forlorn hope perhaps, best boosted by giving my opponent something more scary to shoot at (the DC for example). 

 

So there you have it, my solution to screens.

 

Thoughts?

 

EYIG

Edited March 16, 2018 by Explorer1

[SydonianDragoon404]

I think you should have a backup plan for the mortars in case the rumors are true about GW nerfing soup or ally detachments, or if you go to an event that has some kind of house rule against them. Could opt for Rapier Quad Mortars, Thundefire Cannons, or perhaps even a Whirlwind  variant. I've been using two Rapiers to pull double duty, if I face a list with chaff screens I place them out of LOS and they kill chaff all game long. If there's no chaff I put them at the front of my deployment zone and tell them about the shatter shell profile. "They essentially shoot 4 thunder hammers at you per turn." They always get focused down and my lascannons go unmolested. 

 

I like the inceptors, another option if you want to go that route is twin assault cannon razorbacks. 

Edited March 11, 2018 by SydonianDragoon404

[Explorer1]

Those quad launchers are pretty damn tasty - never seen them used before. Problem is many of the tournaments I go to dont allow Forge World (although  the GT does). My AM detachment is 150pts - I could get (almost) 2 of them for that. 

 

Whats the average on 4d3?

[Panda_Saurus_Rex]

I like the idea of Inceptors although I haven't used them myself. But that many heavy bolter shots will definitely open up space for you. Here is a trick that I have used before to great effect:

 

Drop down 15 bolter/chainsword DC

Shoot everything into one screen (I usually try for a middle rank to clear space)

Charge Screen 1, this will most likely wipe the unit
Activate honor the chapter EVEN IF YOU CAN'T FIGHT, and most times, ESPECIALLY if you can't actually swing on the unit. You essentially get a free 6" movement to tie up a THIRD screen and since you can't fight, you can now maneuver for tri-locks or w/e you have to do to make sure that unit now cannot fall back. 

 

This costs a lot of CP but when pulled off ensures that your DC blob now cannot be shot at and you will most likely kill that 3rd screen in your opponents turn and be free to put the hurt on something else in your turn. 

[Explorer1]

I like the idea of Inceptors although I haven't used them myself. But that many heavy bolter shots will definitely open up space for you. Here is a trick that I have used before to great effect:

 

Drop down 15 bolter/chainsword DC

Shoot everything into one screen (I usually try for a middle rank to clear space)

Charge Screen 1, this will most likely wipe the unit

Activate honor the chapter EVEN IF YOU CAN'T FIGHT, and most times, ESPECIALLY if you can't actually swing on the unit. You essentially get a free 6" movement to tie up a THIRD screen and since you can't fight, you can now maneuver for tri-locks or w/e you have to do to make sure that unit now cannot fall back. 

 

This costs a lot of CP but when pulled off ensures that your DC blob now cannot be shot at and you will most likely kill that 3rd screen in your opponents turn and be free to put the hurt on something else in your turn. 

 

Yeah "taking a prisoner" is really effective. I used to do it a lot when I played my Harlies. Easier to do with smaller bases and Rising Crescendo. I've found it harder with Marines.

[Explorer1]

Play a practice game with my new look list last night. Essentially, Captain JumpSmash, Lemartes, Dante, 3x5 Scouts, 15 DC (Bolter and Chainsword), 10 DC (5 Hammers), 6 Bolter Inceptors, 2x3 Plasma Inceptors, Guard Commande (CP Miner), Platoon Commander, 3x3 Mortars. Play4d agasint Chaos soup - Bunch of Characters (Sorcerers I think), including Araimahn (sp!), Bunch of 'zerkers, some Warp Tallons Demon Prince, 3x3 Oblits and a big pack of Blood Letters. 

 

Long story short I tabled him at the end of Turn 4. He went first, which was probably a mistake, as it allowed me to hold my reserves off the board until he brought his heavy hitters down on Turn 3, which is exactly what happened. Turn 1 and 2 saw some minor skirmishes. The only thing of note were his 'zerkers assaulting and killing  Mortar Team (forgot they could move as well as deploy 9" away), before evaporating before the Bolter Inceptors. IN return, the Inceptors were evaporated by a unit of Oblits. In turn 3 he brought in all his remaining Oblits, the Demon Prince, and the Blood Letters. They did minimum damage, as I was still screening with my Scouts. I then brough in the rest of my army on my turn 3 ...... and failed all my charges!! However, my opponents turn 3 was pretty lack lustre, and I got off relatively unscathed. On my turn 4 I managed to pull of a fantastic turn of shooting and charging, and my dice were pretty hot ..... tabled him.

 

Learning points

• Bolter Inceptors are pretty awesome. S5 AP-1, is great at clearing anything T4 and lower, even if they have a 3+ save.
• Plasma Inceptors are a little less awesome. The d3 shots were a bit random. 
• Mortars with full re-rolls are pretty good.
• 8 CP's were fine (although I was pretty lucky with the Miner).
• Those bloody Nurgle trees are a pain
• Oblits are nasty
• Dante wasa boss, killing a unit of obits, a unit of warp talons and Arhiman. 

I think this list might just work!

[Majkhel]

That's a very consistent-looking list! Congratulation. I like that you use Dante despite him being pricey. 

[Explorer1]

That's a very consistent-looking list! Congratulation. I like that you use Dante despite him being pricey. 

 

TBH I'm undecided on Dante - if the only reason he's there is to buff the Inceptors, then I could bring a Captain and a lieutenant instead. Statistically, re-rolling all hits, gives the same results (more or less) as re-rolling ones to hit and ones to wound. I could even give them twin lightening claws, and they would still be cheaper than Dante. However, I think that Dante will have more general utility. I'll be running him it may next GT, and I'll report back.

[Dosjetka]

Couple of suggestions:

• Posting a picture of your army would be good or, better yet, a picture of the battles you're talking about here!
• It would be great if you would not use white as a font colour when you post your lists as people using the "light" forum skin can't see a thing (by default, the software changes the colour of the text depending onthe skin used unless people override that with their own colour choice).

Anyway, that aside, good luck with your games and tournaments! :tu:

[Explorer1]

Couple of suggestions:

• Posting a picture of your army would be good or, better yet, a picture of the battles you're talking about here!
• It would be great if you would not use white as a font colour when you post your lists as people using the "light" forum skin can't see a thing (by default, the software changes the colour of the text depending onthe skin used unless people override that with their own colour choice).

Anyway, that aside, good luck with your games and tournaments!

 

Thanks for the feedback. On the White colour - not sure what you mean. I tend to write the longer posts elsewhere, and cut and paste it in. When I do that (using black text) I cant see the text unless I change the font colour to white. Is there another way to do this.

 

On posting photos - I'm not looking for painting feedback, I'm looking for tactics and list building feedback. 

[Blackcadian]

Couple of suggestions:

• Posting a picture of your army would be good or, better yet, a picture of the battles you're talking about here!
• It would be great if you would not use white as a font colour when you post your lists as people using the "light" forum skin can't see a thing (by default, the software changes the colour of the text depending onthe skin used unless people override that with their own colour choice).

Anyway, that aside, good luck with your games and tournaments! :tu:

NOW I know why I can’t see half of his posts in this thread!!! I thought maybe it’s an iPhone/browser Problem hahaha!

[Panzer]

 

Couple of suggestions:

 

• Posting a picture of your army would be good or, better yet, a picture of the battles you're talking about here!
• It would be great if you would not use white as a font colour when you post your lists as people using the "light" forum skin can't see a thing (by default, the software changes the colour of the text depending onthe skin used unless people override that with their own colour choice).

Anyway, that aside, good luck with your games and tournaments! :tu:

 

Thanks for the feedback. On the White colour - not sure what you mean. I tend to write the longer posts elsewhere, and cut and paste it in. When I do that (using black text) I cant see the text unless I change the font colour to white. Is there another way to do this.

 

On posting photos - I'm not looking for painting feedback, I'm looking for tactics and list building feedback.

He's right tho.

I didn't read 95% of what you posted here due it being just a wall of text in bright white (the format of text you copy from elsewhere gets copied as well. That includes font color and size)

[Explorer1]

OK - I obviously need help (!) on posting....!

 

What I normally do is write the longer posts in word, or in my email editor, and then cut and paste it into the forum. If I do that, the text is black and I cant see it. The only way I can see it is if I highlight all the text, and then change it to white. But that seems to mean that nobody else can see it.

 

What should I do?

[Majkhel]

Copy the text from a notepad or similar basic text editor.

[Explorer1]

Copy the text from a notepad or similar basic text editor.

 

 

OK, thanks - I'll try this. I was about to post a longer post on killing big scary things. Let me know if you can read it.

[Explorer1]

Every army needs to kill Big Scary Things (broadly things that are T7 our more, have lots of wounds and deal a lot to damage e.g. Primarchs, Knights, Monsters etc). I need to think about how my Blood Angels army will kill BSTs. 

 

However, before I start some “limitations” I don't plan to bring any Vehicldes in my BA army (if I was I would be bringing Sicarian Tanks all the way!!!)

 

Broadly there are three way to do this - long range shooting, short range shooting and combat. 

 

 

Long Range Shooting

 

At the moment my BA army has no long range shooting. With the “no vehicles” restriction that only really leaves Devastators.

 

I used to run a BA Brigade with 3 devastation squads. I’m not saying they weren’t good (devastating even!), but they had limitations. The biggest problem I found was they always seemed to be out of line of sight, and/or out of position. They just didn’t seem to fit in with the “style” of fast moving assault army I wanted to run. 

 

Although I’ve never tried them, I see the same problem with Hellblasters. 

 

 

Short Range Shooting

 

Broadly speaking this means Melta or Plasma. Either can do the job, but the important point is delivery mechanism. To really shine Plasma Guns and Melta Guns need to get close. For Plasma 12” to double tap, and for Melta ideally 6” to re-roll damage. So, to be effective, the delivery mechanism needs to be mobile, meaning it needs to be fast, or it needs to deep strike. So what are the options

• Company Veterans. Company Vets are the best way to get as many Melta or Plasma Guns in one unit as possible. For 165pts you can get 4 Melta guns and a Combi Melta, or for 147pts, 4 Plasma Guns and a Combi Plasma. So 33pts per Melta shot, or 14.7pts per Plasma shot. The problem of course is delivery (now I know that through that weird flow chart thing Company Vets with Jump Packs are still legal, but how long do you think that’s going to last?). Driving them up in a Rhino or Razorback is too “clunky”. Which really only leaves a Drop Pod, adding another 85pts. So the cost for unit plus delivery systems for Melta comes to 250pts, or 50pts per shot. For Plasma the price goes up to 232pts, or 23.2pts pershot.
• Bikes. A squad of 3 Bikes can take 2 Melta guns , or two Plasma Guns. They are reasonably quick, and pretty durable. With 2 Plasma Guns they cost 107pts, or 26.75pts per shot, and with Melta 115pts, or 57.5pts per shot.
• Assault Squads. Five Assault Marines with Jump Packs and 2 Melta guns cost 114pts, or 57pts per shot. The same squad with Plasma Guns costs 106pts, or 26.5pts per shot (oddly similar to Bikes!!)
• Inceptors. No Melta option, but 3 guys with Plasma costs 177pts, for 12 shots on average, giving a cost of 14.75pts per shot.
• Vanguard Veterans. Five VV with dual Plasma Pistols and Jump Packs costs 160pts for 10 shots, so 16pts per shot. 

So in terms of shooting, the most efficient Plasma choice are Plasma Inceptors, and the most efficient Melta choice are Company Vets in a Drop Pod. How do they compare?

 

Well, against T7, the Company Vets on the drop (i.e. outside of 6”) will most likely wound twice for 7 damage on average. If they dont overcharge the Inceptors will do 4 wounds on average, and around 10 if they overcharge. Against T8 the Melta Guns will probably only do one wound, and d6 damage. The Inceptors will do maybe 3 damage, or around 8 if they overcharge. 

 

Now, maths isn’t my strong point, so please correct me if I’m wrong, but it does seem that overcharged Inceptors are the best option here, and the 73pts price difference between them and Vets goes some way to buying a cheap Captain to mitigate deaths when you overcharge. 

 

The great unknowns are the number of shot the Inceptors will actually get on 6d3, and whether you will have subsequent turns with your Vets under 6” range (very unlikely I suspect).  As for Plasma Shots, if you dont want to “risk the random” then your next most efficient choice are Vanguard Vets with dual Plasma Pistols - 160pts for a guaranteed 10 shots.....! Definately worth considering.

 

Combat

 

The three options are Sanguinary Guard, Death Company and Vanguard Vets. 

• Sanguinary Guard. I’ve played a few games with SG, and the problem is they only have 2 attacks. While 2 wounds, and a 2+ save make them more durable than DC or VV, their damage output just doesn’t compare. But by far and away the biggest problem IMO is that their weapons are d3, whihc makes them far inferior to Thunder Hammers with straight 3 damage.
• Death Company. Being able to take as many Thunder Hammers as you like is what makes DC shine or killing BSTs in combat. Combine that with 3 attacks on the charge, and re-rolls  to hit and to charge distances from Lemartes, and it’s hard to think of a more “Killy” close combat unit.
• Vanguard Vets. They’re one point cheaper than DC, and can also take as many Thunder Hammers as you like. However, they only have 2 attacks on the charge, and don’t  get re-rolls to charge distance. However, what they do get are Storm Shields for only 5pts! So, while they dont put out as musch damage as DC, they re more durable to high strength low AP attacks .... just the sort of thing BST’s will dish out in combat.

So I think the choice comes down to between DC and VV, with the choice being between higher damage output, or higher durability. On balance I think DC get the nod. While VV are more durable to low AP weapons, they both die just the same to torrent of fire.

 

Conclusion 

 

To kill BSTs with Blood Angles it seems your best options are Plasma Inceptors, and DC with Thunder Hammers. 

[Majkhel]

My "White" mode on the mobile says: "PERFECT" 
Including spacing, points and text in "bold".

Edited March 16, 2018 by Majkhel

[Explorer1]

My "White" mode on the mobile says: "PERFECT" 

Including spacing, points and text in "bold".

 

 

Thanks mate, appreciate the feedback and the help.

[Panzer]

Every army needs to kill Big Scary Things (broadly things that are T7 our more, have lots of wounds and deal a lot to damage e.g. Primarchs, Knights, Monsters etc). I need to think about how my Blood Angels army will kill BSTs. 

 

However, before I start some “limitations” I don't plan to bring any Vehicldes in my BA army (if I was I would be bringing Sicarian Tanks all the way!!!)

 

Broadly there are three way to do this - long range shooting, short range shooting and combat. 

 

 

Long Range Shooting

 

At the moment my BA army has no long range shooting. With the “no vehicles” restriction that only really leaves Devastators.

 

I used to run a BA Brigade with 3 devastation squads. I’m not saying they weren’t good (devastating even!), but they had limitations. The biggest problem I found was they always seemed to be out of line of sight, and/or out of position. They just didn’t seem to fit in with the “style” of fast moving assault army I wanted to run. 

 

Although I’ve never tried them, I see the same problem with Hellblasters. 

 

 

Short Range Shooting

 

Broadly speaking this means Melta or Plasma. Either can do the job, but the important point is delivery mechanism. To really shine Plasma Guns and Melta Guns need to get close. For Plasma 12” to double tap, and for Melta ideally 6” to re-roll damage. So, to be effective, the delivery mechanism needs to be mobile, meaning it needs to be fast, or it needs to deep strike. So what are the options

• Company Veterans. Company Vets are the best way to get as many Melta or Plasma Guns in one unit as possible. For 165pts you can get 4 Melta guns and a Combi Melta, or for 147pts, 4 Plasma Guns and a Combi Plasma. So 33pts per Melta shot, or 14.7pts per Plasma shot. The problem of course is delivery (now I know that through that weird flow chart thing Company Vets with Jump Packs are still legal, but how long do you think that’s going to last?). Driving them up in a Rhino or Razorback is too “clunky”. Which really only leaves a Drop Pod, adding another 85pts. So the cost for unit plus delivery systems for Melta comes to 250pts, or 50pts per shot. For Plasma the price goes up to 232pts, or 23.2pts pershot.
• Bikes. A squad of 3 Bikes can take 2 Melta guns , or two Plasma Guns. They are reasonably quick, and pretty durable. With 2 Plasma Guns they cost 107pts, or 26.75pts per shot, and with Melta 115pts, or 57.5pts per shot.
• Assault Squads. Five Assault Marines with Jump Packs and 2 Melta guns cost 114pts, or 57pts per shot. The same squad with Plasma Guns costs 106pts, or 26.5pts per shot (oddly similar to Bikes!!)
• Inceptors. No Melta option, but 3 guys with Plasma costs 177pts, for 12 shots on average, giving a cost of 14.75pts per shot.
• Vanguard Veterans. Five VV with dual Plasma Pistols and Jump Packs costs 160pts for 10 shots, so 16pts per shot. 

So in terms of shooting, the most efficient Plasma choice are Plasma Inceptors, and the most efficient Melta choice are Company Vets in a Drop Pod. How do they compare?

 

Well, against T7, the Company Vets on the drop (i.e. outside of 6”) will most likely wound twice for 7 damage on average. If they dont overcharge the Inceptors will do 4 wounds on average, and around 10 if they overcharge. Against T8 the Melta Guns will probably only do one wound, and d6 damage. The Inceptors will do maybe 3 damage, or around 8 if they overcharge. 

 

Now, maths isn’t my strong point, so please correct me if I’m wrong, but it does seem that overcharged Inceptors are the best option here, and the 73pts price difference between them and Vets goes some way to buying a cheap Captain to mitigate deaths when you overcharge. 

 

The great unknowns are the number of shot the Inceptors will actually get on 6d3, and whether you will have subsequent turns with your Vets under 6” range (very unlikely I suspect).  As for Plasma Shots, if you dont want to “risk the random” then your next most efficient choice are Vanguard Vets with dual Plasma Pistols - 160pts for a guaranteed 10 shots.....! Definately worth considering.

 

Combat

 

The three options are Sanguinary Guard, Death Company and Vanguard Vets. 

• Sanguinary Guard. I’ve played a few games with SG, and the problem is they only have 2 attacks. While 2 wounds, and a 2+ save make them more durable than DC or VV, their damage output just doesn’t compare. But by far and away the biggest problem IMO is that their weapons are d3, whihc makes them far inferior to Thunder Hammers with straight 3 damage.
• Death Company. Being able to take as many Thunder Hammers as you like is what makes DC shine or killing BSTs in combat. Combine that with 3 attacks on the charge, and re-rolls  to hit and to charge distances from Lemartes, and it’s hard to think of a more “Killy” close combat unit.
• Vanguard Vets. They’re one point cheaper than DC, and can also take as many Thunder Hammers as you like. However, they only have 2 attacks on the charge, and don’t  get re-rolls to charge distance. However, what they do get are Storm Shields for only 5pts! So, while they dont put out as musch damage as DC, they re more durable to high strength low AP attacks .... just the sort of thing BST’s will dish out in combat.

So I think the choice comes down to between DC and VV, with the choice being between higher damage output, or higher durability. On balance I think DC get the nod. While VV are more durable to low AP weapons, they both die just the same to torrent of fire.

 

Conclusion 

 

To kill BSTs with Blood Angles it seems your best options are Plasma Inceptors, and DC with Thunder Hammers. 

 

Nah, that font is terrible.

Here, I show you how to copy&paste text from elsewhere properly into this forum. It doesn't work on mobile tho.

 

Click on this little button. It disables the whole formatting thing for this forum (including all the buttons above the textbox) and shows the tags of specific functions like quote or spoiler etc. instead.

 

 

Then you copy&paste the text into the textbox. If you're done with that you can click on that button again, the B&C forum software will automatically use the standard settings for texts (standard front, standard grey font-color and so on).

From there you can start formatting your text, including pictures with the Image button or whatever else you want to do. That's how I copy&paste the posts from WarCom as well before I add the pictures. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344678-tau-codex-pre-order-march-10th/?p=5027801

[Blackcadian]

Thank you for the good post and making the effort to change the color! I can read it now!

 

Good to see DC and Inceptors as possibly strongest options (in a nutshell), I’ve always wondered about that.

[Silverson]

Every army needs to kill Big Scary Things (broadly things that are T7 our more, have lots of wounds and deal a lot to damage e.g. Primarchs, Knights, Monsters etc). I need to think about how my Blood Angels army will kill BSTs. 

 

However, before I start some “limitations” I don't plan to bring any Vehicldes in my BA army (if I was I would be bringing Sicarian Tanks all the way!!!)

 

Broadly there are three way to do this - long range shooting, short range shooting and combat. 

 

 

Long Range Shooting

 

At the moment my BA army has no long range shooting. With the “no vehicles” restriction that only really leaves Devastators.

 

I used to run a BA Brigade with 3 devastation squads. I’m not saying they weren’t good (devastating even!), but they had limitations. The biggest problem I found was they always seemed to be out of line of sight, and/or out of position. They just didn’t seem to fit in with the “style” of fast moving assault army I wanted to run. 

 

Although I’ve never tried them, I see the same problem with Hellblasters. 

 

 

Short Range Shooting

 

Broadly speaking this means Melta or Plasma. Either can do the job, but the important point is delivery mechanism. To really shine Plasma Guns and Melta Guns need to get close. For Plasma 12” to double tap, and for Melta ideally 6” to re-roll damage. So, to be effective, the delivery mechanism needs to be mobile, meaning it needs to be fast, or it needs to deep strike. So what are the options

• Company Veterans. Company Vets are the best way to get as many Melta or Plasma Guns in one unit as possible. For 165pts you can get 4 Melta guns and a Combi Melta, or for 147pts, 4 Plasma Guns and a Combi Plasma. So 33pts per Melta shot, or 14.7pts per Plasma shot. The problem of course is delivery (now I know that through that weird flow chart thing Company Vets with Jump Packs are still legal, but how long do you think that’s going to last?). Driving them up in a Rhino or Razorback is too “clunky”. Which really only leaves a Drop Pod, adding another 85pts. So the cost for unit plus delivery systems for Melta comes to 250pts, or 50pts per shot. For Plasma the price goes up to 232pts, or 23.2pts pershot.
• Bikes. A squad of 3 Bikes can take 2 Melta guns , or two Plasma Guns. They are reasonably quick, and pretty durable. With 2 Plasma Guns they cost 107pts, or 26.75pts per shot, and with Melta 115pts, or 57.5pts per shot.
• Assault Squads. Five Assault Marines with Jump Packs and 2 Melta guns cost 114pts, or 57pts per shot. The same squad with Plasma Guns costs 106pts, or 26.5pts per shot (oddly similar to Bikes!!)
• Inceptors. No Melta option, but 3 guys with Plasma costs 177pts, for 12 shots on average, giving a cost of 14.75pts per shot.
• Vanguard Veterans. Five VV with dual Plasma Pistols and Jump Packs costs 160pts for 10 shots, so 16pts per shot. 

So in terms of shooting, the most efficient Plasma choice are Plasma Inceptors, and the most efficient Melta choice are Company Vets in a Drop Pod. How do they compare?

 

Well, against T7, the Company Vets on the drop (i.e. outside of 6”) will most likely wound twice for 7 damage on average. If they dont overcharge the Inceptors will do 4 wounds on average, and around 10 if they overcharge. Against T8 the Melta Guns will probably only do one wound, and d6 damage. The Inceptors will do maybe 3 damage, or around 8 if they overcharge. 

 

Now, maths isn’t my strong point, so please correct me if I’m wrong, but it does seem that overcharged Inceptors are the best option here, and the 73pts price difference between them and Vets goes some way to buying a cheap Captain to mitigate deaths when you overcharge. 

 

The great unknowns are the number of shot the Inceptors will actually get on 6d3, and whether you will have subsequent turns with your Vets under 6” range (very unlikely I suspect).  As for Plasma Shots, if you dont want to “risk the random” then your next most efficient choice are Vanguard Vets with dual Plasma Pistols - 160pts for a guaranteed 10 shots.....! Definately worth considering.

 

Combat

 

The three options are Sanguinary Guard, Death Company and Vanguard Vets. 

• Sanguinary Guard. I’ve played a few games with SG, and the problem is they only have 2 attacks. While 2 wounds, and a 2+ save make them more durable than DC or VV, their damage output just doesn’t compare. But by far and away the biggest problem IMO is that their weapons are d3, whihc makes them far inferior to Thunder Hammers with straight 3 damage.
• Death Company. Being able to take as many Thunder Hammers as you like is what makes DC shine or killing BSTs in combat. Combine that with 3 attacks on the charge, and re-rolls  to hit and to charge distances from Lemartes, and it’s hard to think of a more “Killy” close combat unit.
• Vanguard Vets. They’re one point cheaper than DC, and can also take as many Thunder Hammers as you like. However, they only have 2 attacks on the charge, and don’t  get re-rolls to charge distance. However, what they do get are Storm Shields for only 5pts! So, while they dont put out as musch damage as DC, they re more durable to high strength low AP attacks .... just the sort of thing BST’s will dish out in combat.

So I think the choice comes down to between DC and VV, with the choice being between higher damage output, or higher durability. On balance I think DC get the nod. While VV are more durable to low AP weapons, they both die just the same to torrent of fire.

 

Conclusion 

 

To kill BSTs with Blood Angles it seems your best options are Plasma Inceptors, and DC with Thunder Hammers. 

 

 

I think you are passing on company veterans with melta and jump packs way to quickly without giving them the credit, they could be around for the next two years or more and skipping them leaves you short of the option, if your worried about the models not being usable in a few years then paint them either with yellow helmets or bare heads and they can double as assault marine, or magnetise the backpacks.

 

I'm not up on my math hammer but company veterans with jump packs might give plasma inceptors a run for there money. 

[Paladin777]

To those of you who want to read previous posts on your phone, you Can elect to view in desktop mode which works.