First game in 8th, new to Blood Angels

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Hello beautiful people of the B&C forum, well met.

 

Today I was able to play my first game of 8th. It was just a quick demo game at the FLGS using the Dark Imperium starter set only (which is all I own right now). I played Kill Team twice in 7th, and I played just a few small games in an escalation league during 6th.

 

To sum up: I'm a noob at playing the game. Not a noob at hobby modelling. Have read a few Black Library novels so know a bit about the 40k backstory.

 

I want to run a loyalist Astartes army and have already purchased Codex: Blood Angels for my rules. I want to play fast, hard, and in-your-face. Probably will make a home-spun Raven Guard successor.

 

What can you recommend to me as the next units to purchase to expand upon my small Dark Imperium army? I'm interested mainly in what is competitive since I will create my own fluff. Fav units are tac marines and any type of vehicle (except bikes), not sure how good Dreads, tanks, and flyers really are, or which ones would be the best and what the specific strategies would be to use them most efficiently. 

 

Thanks!

[9x19 Parabellum]

Hi Nuclear, welcome aboard.

 

Ok, I think I know what you want, and have it distilled down to;

 

loyalist astartes army

fast, hard and in-your-face

 

Here's where I'm confused; you bought Blood Angels Codex but then talk about a Raven Guard successor chapter.   So...which one is it that you're looking at running?

 

Assuming your reported playstyle is accurate, I think everyone would agree you want to steer more towards Blood Angels than Raven Guard.  RG have a couple "in-your-face" style units/things they can do, specifically with their "Strike from the Shadows" stratagem, but Blood Angels have more overall options in that regard and really the whole codex reinforces that style of play.

 

So, with that in mind, (specifically the "fast, hard, and in-your-face"), you want to start getting into jump units which you really don't get in Dark Imperium. Specifically, Death Company and Sanguinary Guard.  Additionally, your HQ units will reinforce and synergize with that style of play, so a Jump Captain (or Captains), Jump Chaplain and Jump Librarians are all good.  Sanguinor and LeMartes are good, but you can afford to lay off Dante for now. 

 

Once you get a solid core of jump infantry purchased, I'd suggest moving out into, possibly, Stormraven, and then get yourself either a Librarian Dreadnought or Death Company Dreadnought, plus whatever hard hitting infantry unit you want to put into the main transport area.  Death Company on foot could work here (or in jump packs, but you'll get fewer models in there), or terminators.    You could also try Devastator Marines of Sternguard with Heavy Flamers (though I'm not a big fan of flamers in this addition). 

 

The other thing about Blood Angels is that we are highly Command Point dependent, so even though you want those fast, hard, in-your-face style units, you need the other stuff to support them. If you have Dark Imperium, I think that gets you 2 units of 5 intercessors, so get yourself a unit of scouts in order to get your 3 "troop" choices to form a battalion formation, which you'll need for command points.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Fantastic, thanks for the response! Do the Dark Imperium Inceptors count as Jump units? If not, why not? What's the specific thing(s) about Jump units that make them so necessary?

 

 

 

Here's where I'm confused; you bought Blood Angels Codex but then talk about a Raven Guard successor chapter.   So...which one is it that you're looking at running?

 

Assuming your reported playstyle is accurate, I think everyone would agree you want to steer more towards Blood Angels than Raven Guard.  RG have a couple "in-your-face" style units/things they can do, specifically with their "Strike from the Shadows" stratagem, but Blood Angels have more overall options in that regard and really the whole codex reinforces that style of play.

 

 

 

 

I want to create a chapter that is a Raven Guard successor fluff-wise, but uses Codex:BA for rules. I have always really loved the idea of RG but have never loved their rules (or lack thereof) and I don't like the sneaky/stealthy playstyle. So for example, I want to have a unit that I call the "Killer Bird Dudes" and paint them some Birdish color, but then say the unit "counts as" Death Company. I'd probably do some converting on the models and create a backstory to explain why that particular unit has those specific rules. 

 

That's okay, isn't it?

 

If not I'll just go with making it a Blood Angels successor. I wanted RG for the fluff.

[Morticon]

You could work two detachments! The RG rules synergise really well with the BA stuff- using the backline fire support and then some additional forward support with their strats, followed by some hard hitting BA! 

[Panzer]

Well there's one thing RG can do nobody else can do and it's pretty strong when it works.

Deploying a big unit of Boltstorm Aggressors in shooting range via infiltrate stratagem so they can shoot turn 1 without having to move. That's a LOT of dakka.

I saw a RG list on the Grand Tournament Heat 3 livestream and that unit wrecked even vehicles by sheer weight of fire. A unit of 6 puts out an average of 114 shots if it doesn't move and costs 222p. It's only S4 AP0 D1 shooting but 114 shots at BS3+ wounds T7 25 times and T8+ still 12.67 times. Even better if a Captain is nearby. ;)

[Panzer]

 

I want to create a chapter that is a Raven Guard successor fluff-wise, but uses Codex:BA for rules. I have always really loved the idea of RG but have never loved their rules (or lack thereof) and I don't like the sneaky/stealthy playstyle. So for example, I want to have a unit that I call the "Killer Bird Dudes" and paint them some Birdish color, but then say the unit "counts as" Death Company. I'd probably do some converting on the models and create a backstory to explain why that particular unit has those specific rules. 

 

That's okay, isn't it?

 

If not I'll just go with making it a Blood Angels successor. I wanted RG for the fluff.

In friendly games that's totally fine and in tournament games nobody will care about your personal fluff as long as you don't keep calling them Raven Guard since that could possibly confuse the opponent and let him assume the wrong things.

It would only matter in die-hard fluff games .... aka it's most of the time not a problem. Just weird now that we have Chapter Tactics and everything. ^^

[tychobi]

Get what you think is cool. The learning curve towards competition is long and will change before you know it so get what tickles you and learn how to make it work. I recommend a storm raven. Any loadout will do work (but seriously consider magnets) and it is a very rewarding model to build and paint and play with. I recommend lower model count armies to new players because your progress is easier to track and less moving parts/rules makes for a less finicky experience. Really play what you think is cool. Wins come more from experience than army lists.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Fantastic, thanks for the response! Do the Dark Imperium Inceptors count as Jump units? If not, why not? What's the specific thing(s) about Jump units that make them so necessary?

 

 

Yes, they (Inceptors) do count as jump units, and they are very good jump units at that.  I'm just not sure they are exactly the fast/hard/inyoface units you are looking for.  They are fast, but not quite as fast as regular jump units (10" vs. 12").   They are "hard", T5, 3+, 2 wounds, but they are not really "inyoface" as they are a shooty unit, not a melee unit.  But more to the point, they are not an iconic Blood Angels unit.  Again, to be sure, they are good; take them, use them.  But just inceptors in your list will not give you the full range of playstyle you are looking for.

 

The reason jump units are so good/necessary for Blood Angels, and why I responded with them in regards to your playstyle, is because Blood Angels are good in melee combat.  But to be good in melee combat, you have to make it to melee combat.  And to make it to melee combat, you need speed, and the cheapest way per model to get speed is to put a jump pack on them, when and where the model in question can have it.

 

Iconically, all the good Blood Angel melee units are jump units, which is to say, Death Company and Sanguinary Guard.  But there is also a place for Vanguard Veterans (due to their ability to take stormshields), and while your basic Assault Marines with jump packs have always been an iconic vanilla Blood Angel unit, they are not quite up to snuff this edition.  I'm not saying "don't get them, ever!", but you'll probably be a little disappointed with their lackluster performance, as most of us are.

 

 

 

I want to create a chapter that is a Raven Guard successor fluff-wise, but uses Codex:BA for rules. I have always really loved the idea of RG but have never loved their rules (or lack thereof) and I don't like the sneaky/stealthy playstyle. So for example, I want to have a unit that I call the "Killer Bird Dudes" and paint them some Birdish color, but then say the unit "counts as" Death Company. I'd probably do some converting on the models and create a backstory to explain why that particular unit has those specific rules. 

 

That's okay, isn't it?

 

If not I'll just go with making it a Blood Angels successor. I wanted RG for the fluff.

 

 

Yes it's ok.  As someone else mentioned, just don't paint them with Raven Guard (or Carcharadon) iconography and try to say they are blood angels.  That will confuse opponents and probably not fly in tournies and such.  I'm not talking about the colors, mind you, just the Raven Guard iconography.   You can paint them black, if you want to, as successor chapters will often branch out from the core colors of the parent chapter.  (for example, Lamenters, a Blood Angel successor chapter, is yellow).  Also don't "present" them as Raven Guard, either in name or "Chapter" in a tourney list or anything like that.   So for example, if you're army list is called "Angry Blackbirds", that's fine, but under "Codex/Chapter", just put "Blood Angels", not, for example "Blood Angels with Raven Guard fluff!".  

Edited February 25, 2018 by 9x19 Parabellum

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Thank you to everyone for the fantastic feedback, it is much appreciated!

 

One last question: what makes the BA "better" in close combat? I'm assuming the BA jump infantry have the same basic stat line as any other marine codex, so are there specific strategems or character effects/synergies I need to be aware to hit harder in melee?

[brother_b]

Their army rule is red thirst which gives a +1 to wound if charging or charged or doing heroic intervention.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Thank you to everyone for the fantastic feedback, it is much appreciated!

 

One last question: what makes the BA "better" in close combat? I'm assuming the BA jump infantry have the same basic stat line as any other marine codex, so are there specific strategems or character effects/synergies I need to be aware to hit harder in melee?

 

Red Thirst is our chapter tactic, which is better for close combat than pretty much what any other Space Marine Chapter has (at least, what's currently out).  But also, the combination of our Stratagems, Relics, Characters Buffs, and special units (Death Company and Sanguinary Guard) combined with our Chapter Tactic is what makes us better in CC.

[Panzer]

Thank you to everyone for the fantastic feedback, it is much appreciated!

 

One last question: what makes the BA "better" in close combat? I'm assuming the BA jump infantry have the same basic stat line as any other marine codex, so are there specific strategems or character effects/synergies I need to be aware to hit harder in melee?

The +1 to wound as mentioned above, our sick loadout for the Captain, and lastly a bunch of different stratagems that either give us more attacks, fight another time or make it easier to get into melee in the first place with Jump Pack units.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Are dedicated transports not really the BA's "thing" then? 

[Majkhel]

Razorbacks, especially with twin assault canons are really good. 

Edit: on second thought - I would use them as a mobile firebase more often than a sensus stricte transport for troops.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Majkhel

[Panzer]

Are dedicated transports not really the BA's "thing" then? 

Rules-wise we don't have any more reason to use dedicated transports than other Marine chapters. We have less reasons tho due how much support our Jump Pack units get from Stratagems.

Fluff-wise BA use dedicated transports as much as any other Chapter.

[Majkhel]

Actually we might have more reasons to use transports if using: Mephiston, Corbulo (and other sanguinary priests if unable to use Index rules for some reason) and DC dread.

[tychobi]

Storm raven is the only transport I advocate. All have uses but they all pale to the raven in all things outside of price

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

I bought a Death Company kit and a Sanguinary Guard kit. From looking at the data sheets, I'm assuming the best "beat face" load out for Death Company is to take Thunderhammers. What say ye? And if I'm understanding the rules right, each DC fig that charged into combat would get 3 attacks with a Thunderhammer and +1 to wound. Is that correct? No +1 attack for charging anymore? 

 

How do you all run your Sanguinary Guard? I definitely like the look of a power sword better than a power fist. And inferno pistols seem like the best option to me since I want to get the models in combat at the first possible chance.

 

Thanks!

[9x19 Parabellum]

I bought a Death Company kit and a Sanguinary Guard kit. From looking at the data sheets, I'm assuming the best "beat face" load out for Death Company is to take Thunderhammers. What say ye? And if I'm understanding the rules right, each DC fig that charged into combat would get 3 attacks with a Thunderhammer and +1 to wound. Is that correct? No +1 attack for charging anymore? 

 

All correct; 3 attacks for DC with anything but a chainsword (in which case they get 4).   If you want to pump up their number of attacks, get Sanguinor nearbye, or have a Librarian cast Unleash Rage on them (or both).  No +1 attack for charging anymore (not as a base rule, anyway).

 

How do you all run your Sanguinary Guard? I definitely like the look of a power sword better than a power fist. And inferno pistols seem like the best option to me since I want to get the models in combat at the first possible chance.

 

I prefer swords on my SGuard to axes or fists.  Fists have -1 to hit which I don't like, and while they wound better, our red thirst rule tends to smoothe that out. Plus I don't like how they look. Although if you run them near your warlord you can mitigate that -1 to hit.  Axes cost more, have 1 less AP but +1 str, so depending on what you're hunting the bonus to wounding can help.  But in general, I tend to find I like the cost ratio of swords to axes better.  I would not put inferno pistols on them, just leave the standard angelus boltgun on them.

Edited March 1, 2018 by 9x19 Parabellum

[The Unseen]

Swords or fists, mostly because axes are pretty horrifically overcosted for them, and they aren't cheap to begin with.

Fists mean they threaten vehicles a lot more, but only hitting on 4s with 2 attacks a model really hurts.

 

And their too expensive to bring plasma pistols on, since you never want to overcharge with them, and you can't use inferno pistols the turn they deep strike, so Angelus bolters it is.

[Ornithologist]

The Inferno pistols are unfortunately a waste right now, expensive and almost never able to be used. The bolt guns are best. I recommend swords and 1 fist for the unit, as I have found the axes in my unit to be not worth the higher price that they are.

[Paladin777]

I have a box that I plan on building for blood and zeal that I plan on using 2 fists and 2 swords and a sword on the sanguinary ancient. I agree about the overpriced axes, but I have only so many swords to go around and had a ton of blood angels power fists just laying around.

[Ornithologist]

I've noticed that for the most part S Guard swords have the same/ slightly better results than Fists. but I have had less success with axes than anything.  On a related note I still need to buy like 2 to 4 more boxes of those guys. The 4 plus Ancient I have need lots of friends.

 

I second a Storm Raven, though my current list uses a Repulsor instead. 

 

Both vechicles are basically the following in game form:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEQXCeu0JVw

 

I think my prefered setup of S guard is going to be 1 fist, 3 or 4 swords and one axe if only 3 swords ( depending on swords availability) and bolter x 5 per 5  models. 

 

Though I might look into doing a squad with pure plasma down the line... I honestly only really started playing S. Guard during 8th, since they became super good.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Wouldn't the inferno pistols be way superior to angelus bolters once the S Guard get into melee? Seems like that's where the S Guard will be spending most of their time.

[Ornithologist]

Most opponents never stay close enough for you to get shots off, admittedly when I bought the pack I'm using I put all the inferno pistols onto my Captain and a Sargent for a meltacide assault sqd. Which is now also mostly useless :(