Change of Dynamic in Deployment and First Turn

[Fahlnor]

I’ve been thinking recently about how deployment and going first interact this edition compared to last edition and considering how to best adapt to the changes we’ve seen. Lets break the two editions down:

 

7e.

 

1. Roll off for deployment.

2. Players alternate deploying entire army. Whoever deploys first nominally gets first turn.

3. Roll to Seize the Initiative.

 

 

8e.

 

1. Roll off for deployment. Whoever wins the roll off deploys one unit first.

2. Players alternate deploying units until all units are deployed.

3. Roll off for first turn. Player who finished deploying all units first gets +1 to roll.

4. Roll to Seize the Initiative.

 

So, what impact do we have from the changes? I think the following points are the most important:

 

1. 7e. gives both players an equal chance for deploying first and then allows the second player a chance to get the jump on their opponent by seizing. This is vital, because the first player to deploy does so with the understanding that they have a very high chance of having the first turn. They can prepare an alpha strike, etc., and they know that 5/6 times they will be able to use it. The second player has to decide: do I prepare to receive an alpha strike/counter my opponent’s deployment, or do I prepare a counter strike and hope to seize?

 

2. Without going into the maths, 8e. basically gives both players a 50% chance of going first, but requires both armies to deploy without knowing who will have the first turn. Seize the Initiative now holds significantly less tension because neither player has set up their army with the expectation of going first. Both players have to deploy much more tenatatively and can’t risk committing to many resources too far forward, because they’re as likely to go first as second. This impacts Stratagems such as Forlorn Fury quite significantly.

 

So, where does this leave us? If we work on the assumption that our opponents want first turn (and will always choose it given the option), we can see two possibilities: if we also wish to go first, then there’s a simple 50/50 roll off with our opponent to see who does so. However, if we prep our army with a preference to go second, we’re in a wholly different scenario: we are guaranteed our choice of turn order and our opponent still has to deploy without knowing whether they’ll be first or second.

 

Which leads to a final question at the end of a long and meandering post: how would you design your army differently if you knew you were going second?

[Brother Crimson]

The fun part about having a lot of deep strike units is that they can both be used as a strong alpha strike and they mitigate the opponent alpha because a lot of key units can’t be targets.

 

I always try to keep interesting targets to a minimum. If I go DC it is safer to plan on using descent of angels and maybe forlorn on the HQ that will run up and hide behind scouts.

 

Otherwise it would be pretty standard deployment trying to cover both midfield and backfield to hold objectives.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Fahlnor, I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I'm hesitant to commit 100%, either before the game or during it, to going second, and, more importantly, to allow my opponent to know that I'm actively choosing to go second.  Doing that, in my opinion, gives the other player too much strength via the confidence they get in knowing they are going first.  They are not forced to pay any mind to not deploying "too aggressively" on the off chance that you, their opponent, will get to go first. I think that's a big mistake given how much damage a completely unrestrained alpha-strike can achieve (either via shooting or deepstrike melee, or both).

 

At the very least, this is true for a pure elite/semi-elite army such as Blood Angels.  If you have Imperial Soup with 60 Guard bodies to throw down to buff the board, than I think that's a different scenario, and a different argument applies, but pure Blood Angles...no, I don't like it.

[Fahlnor]

Parabellum, I was t thinking of advertising the fact I want second turn to my opponent. Just working on the assumption that he or she will want first turn and looking for ways to turn that to my advantage.

 

Perhaps we could create a mobile defensible position with eg. Land Raiders or Fortifications, populated by chaff such as Scouts. We can build all the deep strike screening we need and ensure there’s just nothing on the board which is either killable or valuable. Our opponent commits turn one and leaves themselves open to a counter-punch that tears them open from throat to groin.

 

It just seems to me that deploying half for first turn and half for second turn without having any idea when you’re likely to play has to be a bigger risk than actively taking turn two and mitigating any first turn strike by our opponents.

 

Perhaps a more palatable question would be “what is the best way for us to counter an alpha strike?”

[The Unseen]

Have a screen that you don't care about dying, backed up by units that can either stay out of LoS/range.

Everything is kill able in this edition, nothing is so durable for its points to not be worth shooting if you don't have anything else to do.

 

Aka, if you deploy a wall of land raiders (which are actually kinda squishy for their points, but I digress) with all your heavy hitters in reserve, smart opponents aren't going to take the bait and they're not going to over commit.

 

Emphasis on "smart player" there.

 

Intercessors, for their durability and low threat level, and scouts, for their ability to deploy almost anywhere and take up a huge amount of table space, make an excellent screen to build off of, and devs can deploy out of LoS turn 1 if your worried about them dying to long range shooting, and then move into position on your turn.

The -1 to hit sucks, but not as much as them dying in a hail of long range fire before they do anything.

[tychobi]

To play vs sharp armies a screen is a must going 1st or 2nd. My first three deployments are msu scouts across the middle every game. I try and hide em but they are there to push the deepstrikers back and claim drop zones for me and die like heros. Then I put my reserves in their spaceship/teleporter/sky/shadows so as to not give any info to my opponent before I have to. Then goes my mobile fire support. Then my static fire support. I keep for last any known priority targets for my opponent like my general or devastators. I always deploy as if I'm going second and hope I get to go first.

[MeltaRange]

Perhaps a more palatable question would be “what is the best way for us to counter an alpha strike?”

 

For Blood Angels only?  For us, it's certainly not as cut and dry as "stack some minuses to hit" like it is for Dark Angels, Nids, Eldar, etc.  Ever try and alpha a Jormungandr army? 

 

For BA, it's a bit more nuanced.  I think it's a combination of a few things:

1. The ability for many of our units to deep strike so they are not on the board and cannot be killed. (something that Brother Crimson mentioned above, but it's not just as simple as that, since the army needs to be setup and deployed in a thoughtful way or it's actually HELPING the opponent alpha strike you by dividing your forces)
2. Our overall good (often flying) movement + movement/charging stratagems means opponents will be less likely to overextend for a chance at a hugely successful alpha since because that opens up places for you to land and charge vulnerable units in the back. (something The Unseen touched about above)
3. Our overall good (often flying) movement that allows us to deploy in places where the enemy can't draw LoS or out of range and move up.  A good example here would be dropping in a large unit of Plasma Inceptors so it can murder a particular unit but remain out of LoS for return fire, and then use On Wings of Fire to re-deploy.
4. Standard of Sacrifice and to a lesser extent the Primaris/Chapter Ancient combined with tough but expendable units. (Intercessors, Aggressors)
5. Much of the work done in the army can be done by Characters, who are fairly well suited to survive an alpha strike simply because of their CHARACTER rule.

 

The good part is, that we can build our alpha defense using useful/points efficient units that will rarely be looked at as cheesy; in order words, these concepts can be part of an army that is built to win a tourney as well as play with friends. (don't take Slamguinious in a friendly game, folks)

[Panzer]

Actually preventing an Alpha Strike is pretty easy and rather no-brain for us.

Deploy lots of Scouts as always to get cheap board control and have as much in reserves as possible. What isn't on the board can't get shot off it. ;)

[Fahlnor]

Actually preventing an Alpha Strike is pretty easy and rather no-brain for us.

Deploy lots of Scouts as always to get cheap board control and have as much in reserves as possible. What isn't on the board can't get shot off it. ;)

That was essentially my conclusion, also. I put together an army list based on what I hope will be a synergistic collection of close assault units with six Scout Squads providing the bulk of the table presence.

[MeltaRange]

Scouts can do little or nothing to stifle an army that is deployed within it's own deployment zone and then spreads out from there, so they're not the golden ticket or anything.  They can only prevent certain zones from being deep struck into, and if you're whole plan is to "just put down scouts and everything else deep strike" that's typically not going to go well against things like Nids, Guard, Death Guard, some Eldar builds, because they'll just deploy in their own deployment zone and use a bunch of shenanigans to spread out from there while concentrating on eliminating the Scouts turn 1 and potentially saving the alpha strike for Turn 2/3.  

 

So really, did you prevent a Turn 1 Alpha strike?  I guess.  But you didn't really force the opponent to play his hand since there was not much of a threat for them to waste it on.  When you put some stuff on the board, but do it in a way that the strike can be minimized, you can entice them to play their alpha units and hopefully survive that to attack back.  You don't want to counterattack and then get counterattacked back.

[Panzer]

Scouts can do little or nothing to stifle an army that is deployed within it's own deployment zone and then spreads out from there, so they're not the golden ticket or anything.  They can only prevent certain zones from being deep struck into, and if you're whole plan is to "just put down scouts and everything else deep strike" that's typically not going to go well against things like Nids, Guard, Death Guard, some Eldar builds, because they'll just deploy in their own deployment zone and use a bunch of shenanigans to spread out from there while concentrating on eliminating the Scouts turn 1 and potentially saving the alpha strike for Turn 2/3.  

 

So really, did you prevent a Turn 1 Alpha strike?  I guess.  But you didn't really force the opponent to play his hand since there was not much of a threat for them to waste it on.  When you put some stuff on the board, but do it in a way that the strike can be minimized, you can entice them to play their alpha units and hopefully survive that to attack back.  You don't want to counterattack and then get counterattacked back.

Uhm I don't know what you expect Scouts to do but they do their job perfectly fine. They are everywhere all over the board sitting on objectives and allowing you to put more units into reserves while also denying space for enemy reserves and securing space for your own reserves.

Also that was obviously not the whole plan but it's a big part of preventing a devastating alpha strike as BA player. Not more and not less.   Your opponent wouldn't "waste" anything if you would've more tasty targets on the board since only very few weapons are one-use only and can normally get used every turn. The only thing would be if you're facing anothern reserves heavy army but then it's all about the Scouts and other chaff deployed anyway. ^^

[MeltaRange]

 

Actually preventing an Alpha Strike is pretty easy and rather no-brain for us.

Deploy lots of Scouts as always to get cheap board control and have as much in reserves as possible. What isn't on the board can't get shot off it.

That was essentially my conclusion, also. I put together an army list based on what I hope will be a synergistic collection of close assault units with six Scout Squads providing the bulk of the table presence.

 

 

Is that a "bad" tactic?  No, it's not bad.  But it's not automatically the "best" tactic or use of points, either.  Again, you're not counting for things screwing you up like Nurglings, other Scouts, Rangers, Ghostkeels, etc. which are relatively common place especially if someone knows they are facing Blood Angels.  So right off the bat, don't assume you can just take over the whole board with the 6 units of Scouts.

 

Also, consider the opportunity cost here of taking 6 units of Scouts - 330 points barebones for 30 wounds T4 4+ save.  More if you start adding toys.  For a few more points I could get 3x5 Intercessors and an Ancient with relic standard, which are way harder to shift and much more dangerous offensively.  Am I saying that setup is "better"?  No, just pointing out that against certain armies like Nids or Iron Warriors or Death Guard you're Scouts are gonna be mincemeat without even really accomplishing that much.

 

Anecdote: I play against a guy who runs a nasty Tyranid list (have you figured out that I loathe Nids yet?) that often includes 30 Gargoyles + 30 Hormagants most deployed on the table, combined with an alpha strike element of Trygon/Devilgants, potentially Mawlocs or Hive Tyrants, and often puts 180 points in reserves to either bring back one 30 man unit (Endless Swarm) or drop 2x9 Sporemines at the beginning of the game with another stratagem.  Plus a bunch of other crap like a Swarmlord, Genestealers, and whatever else he feels like that makes him unreal fast or awesome shooty units that benefit greatly from his screens (hi 6 man Hive Guard unit) combine with a Malanthrope.  Between the already high M of his blobs, plus shenanigans like Overrun, Metabolic Overdrive, 6" pile in/consolidate of the Hormagants, Swarmy's 8" move, Onslaught, and whatever else, he's achieved control of the board without using reserves.  Scouts are neigh useless here and in fact pretty much free points and/or a mechanism for his units to get up the board even FASTER because he can charge them for some extra movement. (plus Overrun...) Here I'd 100% rather have Intercessors over Scouts.

Edited February 27, 2018 by MeltaRange

[MeltaRange]

 

Scouts can do little or nothing to stifle an army that is deployed within it's own deployment zone and then spreads out from there, so they're not the golden ticket or anything.  They can only prevent certain zones from being deep struck into, and if you're whole plan is to "just put down scouts and everything else deep strike" that's typically not going to go well against things like Nids, Guard, Death Guard, some Eldar builds, because they'll just deploy in their own deployment zone and use a bunch of shenanigans to spread out from there while concentrating on eliminating the Scouts turn 1 and potentially saving the alpha strike for Turn 2/3.  

 

So really, did you prevent a Turn 1 Alpha strike?  I guess.  But you didn't really force the opponent to play his hand since there was not much of a threat for them to waste it on.  When you put some stuff on the board, but do it in a way that the strike can be minimized, you can entice them to play their alpha units and hopefully survive that to attack back.  You don't want to counterattack and then get counterattacked back.

Uhm I don't know what you expect Scouts to do but they do their job perfectly fine. They are everywhere all over the board sitting on objectives and allowing you to put more units into reserves while also denying space for enemy reserves and securing space for your own reserves.

Also that was obviously not the whole plan but it's a big part of preventing a devastating alpha strike as BA player. Not more and not less.   Your opponent wouldn't "waste" anything if you would've more tasty targets on the board since only very few weapons are one-use only and can normally get used every turn. The only thing would be if you're facing anothern reserves heavy army but then it's all about the Scouts and other chaff deployed anyway. ^^

 

 

Alpha strikes are not always about reserves popping in though is my point.  Scouts are excellent at preventing reserve zones and I use them for that purpose.  I have found them to suck when it comes to taking massed firepower when they are the only unit being deployed to start the game.  A guard army with a bunch of artillery can alpha strike you right off the table if you deploy only 6 units of Scouts while at the same time using Move! Move! Move! to flood a significant portion of the board from their deployment zone and prevent your counterattack from hitting home.  A Wyvern targeting 5 Scouts = Bad.  A Wyvern targeting 5 Intercessors in range of the Relic Standard and maybe in cover isn't as scary.  I rate flyers as a pretty good "overall" alpha strike denial unit because they are -1 to hit, plus they can move in a way so that for example if a guard player puts his Infantry unit exactly 18" away from his tanks, you can't deep strike in between but you CAN place a flyer in there.  I rate Whirlwinds because you can maybe hide them from at least some anti-tank and they are cheap at 100ish points.  

 

I'm not really arguing against Scouts here, I'm just advocating for a balanced approach to deployment when you're talking about building an army that is TAC and wants to minimize alpha strikes.

Edited February 27, 2018 by MeltaRange

[Panzer]

 

 

Scouts can do little or nothing to stifle an army that is deployed within it's own deployment zone and then spreads out from there, so they're not the golden ticket or anything.  They can only prevent certain zones from being deep struck into, and if you're whole plan is to "just put down scouts and everything else deep strike" that's typically not going to go well against things like Nids, Guard, Death Guard, some Eldar builds, because they'll just deploy in their own deployment zone and use a bunch of shenanigans to spread out from there while concentrating on eliminating the Scouts turn 1 and potentially saving the alpha strike for Turn 2/3.  

 

So really, did you prevent a Turn 1 Alpha strike?  I guess.  But you didn't really force the opponent to play his hand since there was not much of a threat for them to waste it on.  When you put some stuff on the board, but do it in a way that the strike can be minimized, you can entice them to play their alpha units and hopefully survive that to attack back.  You don't want to counterattack and then get counterattacked back.

Uhm I don't know what you expect Scouts to do but they do their job perfectly fine. They are everywhere all over the board sitting on objectives and allowing you to put more units into reserves while also denying space for enemy reserves and securing space for your own reserves.

Also that was obviously not the whole plan but it's a big part of preventing a devastating alpha strike as BA player. Not more and not less.   Your opponent wouldn't "waste" anything if you would've more tasty targets on the board since only very few weapons are one-use only and can normally get used every turn. The only thing would be if you're facing anothern reserves heavy army but then it's all about the Scouts and other chaff deployed anyway. ^^

 

 

Alpha strikes are not always about reserves popping in though is my point.  Scouts are excellent at preventing reserve zones and I use them for that purpose.  I have found them to suck when it comes to taking massed firepower when they are the only unit being deployed to start the game.  A guard army with a bunch of artillery can alpha strike you right off the table if you deploy only 6 units of Scouts while at the same time using Move! Move! Move! to flood a significant portion of the board from their deployment zone and prevent your counterattack from hitting home.  A Wyvern targeting 5 Scouts = Bad.  A Wyvern targeting 5 Intercessors in range of the Relic Standard and maybe in cover isn't as scary.  I rate flyers as a pretty good "overall" alpha strike denial unit because they are -1 to hit, plus they can move in a way so that for example if a guard player puts his Infantry unit exactly 18" away from his tanks, you can't deep strike in between but you CAN place a flyer in there.  I rate Whirlwinds because you can maybe hide them from at least some anti-tank and they are cheap at 100ish points.  

 

I'm not really arguing against Scouts here, I'm just advocating for a balanced approach to deployment when you're talking about building an army that is TAC and wants to minimize alpha strikes.

 

Yeah and I never said it's about reserves popping in. The main point about this was to deny targets the opponent can shoot at. Denying space for enemy reserves is just the cherry on top.

Your comparison is lacking as well tho. 5 Intercessors in range of the Relic Standard is obviously way more expensive than 5 Scouts, is way more limited and offer way less board control. Nobody here is saying that Scouts can tank a whole armies shooting lol

I'm also not saying Scouts are the only thing you can or should deploy on the board. Obviously tanks hiding behind terrain or durable flyer are good as well. That wasn't the point of my post tho.

[MeltaRange]

Not trying to be difficult here, but you posted above that preventing alpha strikes is as easy as deploying lots of scouts and put as much as possible in reserves.  The implication there is that you were saying Scouts and Reserves is the answer to alpha strikes.  I'm saying that is not the case; it is a more complex problem.

 

Actually preventing an Alpha Strike is pretty easy and rather no-brain for us.

Deploy lots of Scouts as always to get cheap board control and have as much in reserves as possible. What isn't on the board can't get shot off it.

 

I also didn't compare 5 scouts to 5 intercessors.  I compared the durability of 6x5 Scouts (330 points) to 3x5 Intercessors + Ancient with Relic Banner (333 points) against a "non reserve" alpha strike list's small arms fire.

 

My typical 2000 point army is 4x5 Intercessors, Ancient, and 2x5 Scouts.  This is typically my deployment to start the game alongside a Librarian Dread, Whirlwind(s) and/or Stormhawk(s) or a Stormraven.  I consider this to be a balanced approach to mitigating all types of the opponent's alpha strikes.

[Panzer]

My problem is that you seem to think that I'm saying other stuff isn't good for anti-alpha strike purposes which I never did with one word and also never implied. That's just your interpretation.

[MeltaRange]

There's not too much sense of arguing about this.  I wrote a 5 bullet-point post about how I like to mitigate alpha strikes, and you responded to it with this post:

 

Actually preventing an Alpha Strike is pretty easy and rather no-brain for us.

Deploy lots of Scouts as always to get cheap board control and have as much in reserves as possible. What isn't on the board can't get shot off it.

 

I'm not paraphrasing or misquoting you.  There's not much else to be said really.  Just trying to contribute to the discussion as best that I can.  Apologies for going off topic here.