Transports - let us try again

[Feral_80]

So our land transports are usually considered overpriced, weirdly armed for their role, and generally not very good. And I totally agree - all would require a discount, but in any case their mixed nature of transport and light fire support makes them quite poor in both roles.

 

After an initial love for Catachan all flamer-Chimeras, I quickly dropped them as I found them way too expensive for what they did. For the cost of a Chimera, we can field two extra infantry squads which will more than make up for the casualties that the Chimera would prevent, and that will move just as fast with the correct orders.

 

However, the more I play with infantry, the more I realize that the high cost of transports probably reflects some indirect advantages in their use: greatly reducing the number of drops (esp. with Guard and its plethora of characters around), acting as a kamikaze ram to eat overwatch (hardly needed by Guard, but anyway), and especially allowing for a more sound deployment and movement.

 

True, at the same cost, in theory, 3 infantry squads are better than 1 squad embarked on a Chimera, but in practice things seem to work differently. Moving, keeping track of, and keeping those infantry squads within various small character auras can become complicated on a table. Allowing other units to speed forward without obstruction by your own men, and generally ensuring smooth manoeuvring in a game which currently is all about positioning, are not very easy tasks when you field large infantry screens. I often find my own men clogged among terrain features, incoming enemy units, and my own countercharge units, Hellhounds, or sometimes even tanks that need to relocate. 

 

Here comes the main advantage of transports and their limited footprint. The more I play, the more I am tempted to give them another chance.

 

I assume the only decent Chimera configurations around are the 3x heavy bolter FW variant (as Tallarn), which seems very good for its price, and the 2x heavy flamer codex (as Catachan), which, however, is both very expensive and plagued by the many issues of flamers. Everything else seems embarrassing. As for the Taurox, it sucks for a number of reasons - and while a bit cheaper, it is also unable to carry the 12 passengers of a Chimera. I am not considering Taurox Primes because there is essentially no point in using them as trasnports at the moment. The Valkyrie is, well, good and fun, but in order to use it effectively you need to design your whole list around it - taking 2-3 flyers and a proper number of close-range/assault units to load into them. Not something I want to do every game, if only because just packing and taking 2-3 Valkyries to the gaming club is simply a pain in the ass. I will be interested in discussions about our flying truck as well anyway. I'd leave the FW uber-transports aside, as their models are ultra-rare.

 

So, anybody else has the same opinion/experience about transports? Any suggestions?

[Altasmurf]

I personally have had a lot of success with a single valk dropping off a catachan platoon commander with catachan vets with either flamers or meltas. All are units that the internet ( and I'm sure many of you right away) tells me sucks. But the mobility, shock, and damage that this group brings has aided in my overall battle plan on many occasions. I'm a big supporter of infantry but you listed many of the weaknesses that they bring. Chimeraes have not proven as successful for me so I'm still trying to figure them out. The catachan flamer one can last a little longer if you have some bigger badder tanks rolling around but i havent bwen impressed. I like the taurox prime for melta scions (another duo im told sucks). I get it why when you can deep strike plasma blah blah blah. My opponents can screen to well for them to be effective. These guys can slide in easier to their damage.

 

These are just me, and I get everyone's meta is different. But shockingly, the internet some times isn't always right. I'm interested in hearing from some true mechanized players and how their armies do.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Personally, I would rather paint one Chimera than twenty Guardsmen any day of the week.

 

But I'm lazy - and a Heretic - so I have Daemons to do any lifting required in midfield and beyond.

[Tyr13]

Yeah, I run mechanised as well... Usually as Tallarn. Ignoring the penalty for moving is worth the downsides for me. Admittedly, Id love it if the Armageddon doctrine had that as its vehicle bonus... Ah well.

I usually run 4-5 squads in chimeras, 1 with flamers, one with triple bolters, one with dual bolters, and a classic multilaser+HB (stuck with it from a previous edition).

They dont do a lot, but seeing as my models are steel legion, eating up points is a pretty good thing for me. x)
Though they do give me a lot of mobility, and make my opponents anti-infantry fire effectively useless, as well as making target priority with his AT weapons an issue. Especially fun with some LR or superheavy support to make the conundrum even worse... :P

[WarriorFish]

I've been thinking that while fully mechanised is expensive and won't be very popular until that changes a few Chimera squads to supplement an infantry force might be the way forward. It'll add some focused mobility that can range out for objectives or to interfere in your opponent's plans. It'd also allow for greater initiative, rather than be more reactive as a pure infantry force is.

[Feral_80]

I'm attracted by the single Valkyrie carrying Catachan pain, but it seems to me very vulnerable alone and quite an obvious choice for an opponent, in terms of target priority. Also, the squad will just find itself unsupported in the middle of the enemy lines, and while it is probably meant to be suicidal since the beginning, having 2-3 such units with their birds flying in seems a safer way to have at least 1-2 deliver their cargo.

 

As for the Chimera, I am glad some of you confirm my impression. I'd be curious to try an assault army on Chimeras, but I only have 2 Catachan + 2 Tallarn/Krieg that double as Hellhounds (they are magnetized), and the idea to leave home without 4 Hellhounds really hurts me

Edited February 26, 2018 by Feral_80

[crimsondave]

I preface saying I do not play competitive at all but I like 3 Bullgryns w/ mauls, an Inquisitor, and a Priest in a BBQ Chimera running up the board with a Hellhound.  I have two sets of these.  Yes, it's pricey but I like like it for fun.  I love the Chimera model.  I wish it were better in the game but I'm using it regardless.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'm currently working out how to convert my Chimera turrets to autocannons. The way I see it, the Gryphonne Pattern Chimera is both a mobile bunker and AC HWT for an infantry squad. 

 

I take 3 for my Cadian Infantry, and 1 for my command section. Foot slogging infantry is rough, and I think that using a Chimera to support advancing infantry is a good strategy.

[Mordian Glory]

I have had a lot of success with my Armageddon Steel Legion force, they remain undefeated in 2018 after 6-7 games.

 

Much of this success is due to me spamming Dakka Chimeras with infantry squads. I run 6 2x Heavy Bolter + Heavy Stubber chimeras and each squad has a plasma and a bolter in it. I generally gunline for a turn or 2 weakening the enemy, then I roll out turn 2-3 and deliver the killing blow with lots of 18" range rapid fire weapons.

 

I find the mobility of the chimera + still being able to fire to be great, if playing maelstrom I can send out individual armoured fist units  to grab points. Also the ignoreing AP-1 is huge, you wouldn't believe how many people rely on spamming AP-1 shots to deal with armour (assault cannon spam for example). 

[NatBrannigan]

Always seem to take various transports even though they don't do much. Somehow having my Veterans walk like common Infantry squads doesn't sit right! Recently put together my BBQ Chimera and a Hades Drill which I'm looking forward to running.

 

Hades drill with a Vet squad obviously (no choice there) should be fun and I think I'm putting a flamer SWS and flamer / heavy flamer Command Squad in the Chimera with a character. Still not very effective, but that amount of fire puts Sisters of Battle to shame! Best practice my flamethrower noise, Fwoooooosh!

[MinoanFresco]

2 Valhallan Stormlords with full sponsons. Each carrying 18 las cannon teams. Does that work?

[MinoanFresco]

Is what I posted above even legal?

 

Also, it sure is annoying how you can't delete duplicate posts.

Edited February 26, 2018 by MinoanFresco

[Tyr13]

Its legal if its not your only stuff. Youd need at least 2 HQs and another superheavy to make it work. Or 5 HQs.

[Karack Blackstone]

While I one day hope to play Guard, I do have a sequence of questions that might aid you all, or at least, so I hope.

 

What is the mission of the unit?

Will a Chimaera aid you in this task?

If so, what weapons loadout do you need the Chimaera to have?

If not, what are the points better spent on?

 

While this series of questions do not exist in a vacuum, there is the simple question that, having a vision for every single unit and what you need it to do will only aid you, as a player, long term.

[NatBrannigan]

Competitively I'm just not sure a transport is ever worth it. With orders you can get your Infantry moving nearly as fast anyway, without the need for disembarking. To protect you Infantry it's far cheaper to just buy a back up squad in stead! They add some weapons but not on an ideal platform (exception being heavy flamers but they ain't cheap), there's actually not much point in taking them.

 

The Breaching Drill at least brings something different with deep strike but the Vets that come out (And it has to be those vets) are only BS4+ and WILL die next turn...

 

Looking at the above questions which are a nice list check list, if the mission is to move somewhere faster to take objectives orders are better. If it's to protect a unit, just buy a spare instead! Maybe the Armageddon doctrine makes them worthwhile? Never used them myself so wouldn't want to comment.

 

I still like them, but I can't see someone making a serious list taking any transports.

[Bonzi]

A backup squad of guardsmen can't tarpit a twenty or thirty strong blob of Nid bugs, a Chimera can. 10 Guardsmen is 10 T3 wounds with a 5+ save that will vanish if you kill more than half of them. A Chimera is 8 T7 wounds with a 3+ that won't leave until it's dead.

[SaradominWrecksYou]

I think Chimeras suck, period. Temporary RIP for my mechanized guard company. The one bonus is that you should be able to find chimeras for cheap online. GW is bound to make chimeras good again so stock up while you can.

 

Edit- They may not be good this edition though, so take your time on finding good deals.

Edited February 27, 2018 by SaradominWrecksYou

[Withershadow]

For what it's worth, the Tallarn triple heavy bolter is only 10 points less than the Catachan double heavy flamer, so they are comparable in that regard.

 

I've had some success with a pair of Catachan chimeras driving around Krieg Engineers and support characters (Marshall, Yarrick, Priest and optional Astropath/Primaris).

 

And what about the Gorgon or better yet, a Baneblade transport variant?

 

There is even the Crassus at 200 points before guns (that it can use in melee or after advancing).

Edited February 28, 2018 by Withershadow

[NatBrannigan]

A Crassus is cool, not sure how good it is but I really would like one to put my Bullgryns in :)

[Feral_80]

Yes, but generally I now put zero faith in FW vehicles. Not only are they rare and horribly expensive (and, often, a pain to assemble), but also seem to be prime candidates for absurdly excessive nerfs. I have no intention to take the risk to get a Crassus only to see it nerfed to 1.5x or 2x its base cost at the next 'adjustments' round.

 

I am still not very convinced by Catachan double-flamer Chimeras. I have Hellhounds for that job, and going Chimera would probably imply to drop the Hellhounds. Plus, they are only potentially good against non-deepstriking armies. On the other hand, Tallarn h.bolter seem much more flexible, and being cheaper is a sexy bonus. I don't find a really good reason to go Catachan with my Chimeras at the moment.

 

Baneblade stuff, I don't know. It's a fire magnet, and quite useless against certain armies now. Until GW clarifies that a fully loaded Baneblade transport can outflank via the Tallarn stratagem (or not), I am very sceptical about their effectiveness.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Feral_80

[Colonel Cross]

I've found Chimeras to be useful this edition. They'd be totally worth their points if I could take them without weapons lol. They soak up overwatch for the charge, they can block Loss, get in the way, are certainly tougher than T3 5+sv guardsmen. I find that overwhelming my opponent with masses of leman russes, sentinels, and Chimeras often means my more mobile units get where they need to go safely.

[Withershadow]

It can’t outflank because it’s too big, no clarification necessary.

 

You can even go cheaper with the Gryphonne with an autocannon for a 95-point chassis.

 

I don’t use hellhounds with Krieg, and the aggressive nature of the engineers lends itself well to the double flamer Chimeras. There is no reason not to advance and pop smoke first turn, so they perform the transport duty better than the dakka chimera. Otherwise they just operate as speed bumps and deferents to melee enemies from getting too close to my engineers.

[NatBrannigan]

It doesn't look like you can even buy a crassus anymore :(

 

Outflanking Baneblades does seem a bit silly, like the infiltrating ones with Creed a few years ago. That's no Bush, it's a Baneblade!

[Feral_80]

I've actually never measured it, but isn't the outflanking Baneblade idea based on the widespread 'without sponson it fits the deployment restrictions (sidewards)' assumption?

 

I also used the flamer-Chimera advancing+smoke move too, but found it a bit situational. Against certain armies you don't exactly want to advance as far as you can until you have softened them up a bit with shooting. But I will give it another try.

[duz_]

From the FAQ

 

Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’ and ‘within’ for rules purposes?

 

A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is

within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so long as any part of the unit/model is within.

 

For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long as all the models in that unit are either on or partially within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.