How do we beat the Custodes Shield-Captain bike spam list?

[Vorenus]

Greetings from the Eye:

 

It seems like the new hotness is the "Herohammer 3.0" list which is some variation of dirt-cheap Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum troops plus a Supreme Headquarters Detachment full of Custodes Shield-Captains on jetbikes.  The cheap Guardsmen fuel tons of CPs for the Shield-Captains.  I'm having trouble beating this net list and I'd love some tips from other veterans.  In a recent game, a single Shield-Captain, buffed by cheap CPs, took apart a 10-man strong unit of Chaos TERMINATORS like they were conscripts.  I know we can field cheap Cultists, and I do generally have a couple of Cultist squads in my lists for objective securing, but I'm struggling with how to stop this net list--the Shield Captains are very fast, extremely tough, and hit like a freight train.  I feel like a pure CSM list has little that can counter that combination, and if we ally in Daemons it doesn't really get a whole lot better.  I've tried both a "pure" World Eaters, World Eaters + Khorne Daemons, and Thousand Sons against this net list and . . . it hasn't gone well for the Legions.

 

I don't want this thread to turn into a "Chaos sucks" or "Custodes are OP" thread.  That's not the point.  I would very much like to hear strategies and tips that people have for fighting this common threat.  I think this list is showing up all over the place, from so-called "friendly" games to big tournaments.  I would love it if our community can come up with some good tactics for taking down the False Emperor's finest!

 

 

NOTE: Edited to show that the 10-man strong unit were Terminators, not "regular" CSM.  My bad.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Vorenus

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I've seen battle reports with the pure Jetbike Spam lists being defeated by Thousand Sons via constant mortal wound application and lots of inferno rounds.

 

As a result, I'm curious.....how did the Thousand Sons game go and what else did the Guard add besides CP? What was their list?

 

As for World Eaters, I saw Berserker Horde/Helbrutes/Kytan only narrowly lose to Tempestus + Shield Captains recently. Game was close the whole time. How did the Guard list differ from the Tempestus paradigm? Once I know that, I can comment further.

 

As for other ideas, has anyone tried Poxwalker Farm (with or without recycling Nurgle Oblits due to the Bell) or spamming Soulburners?

 

How about spamming Sniper Marauders and picking off the captains by fishing for Mortals?

Edited February 26, 2018 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Raven1]

Mortal wound spam, i think would work. Expecting 10 Chaos Space Marines to stand up against literally the Emperor's finest, might be an issue. They don't bring anything to the table that would make a Custodes HQ be scared. I would plunge Ahriman head long into the same thing without fear and Ahriman isn't tooled for the fight phase. Plus it would help to see actual lists (or as close as possible) and tactics.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Another thing you need is large numbers of weapons that inflict Multi-damage.

 

TS Forgefiend with Flickering Flames and Prescience cast on it can do serious damage to a Shield Captain (wounding on 2's, AP-1, 2 damage per hit). Just bubblewrap properly, fall back with any bubblewrap survivors, and open fire.

 

There are other options for other legions that are also efficient, but it will likely boil down to having chaff killers (large bike squads, Cultist Bomb, etc.) backed by mortal wounds and multi-damage. You can kill 70-80 guardsmen a turn if you try hard enough and still have enough to deal with the Custodes.

 

Also.....seconded.....a 10 man CSM squad is no match for a Shield Captain. I believe he's even more expensive than they are, so math alone should tell you that when he gets to operate in his area of specialty (CC), they should get deleted.

 

In the battle report with the Kytan, I believe a charge from one squad of Berzerkers armed entirely with Chainaxes got rid of a Shield Captain just fine. This was, of course, after he was locked in combat with some other poor sinners who had gotten nearly wiped out, but those are the breaks.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Mortal wound spam, i think would work. Expecting 10 Chaos Space Marines to stand up against literally the Emperor's finest, might be an issue. They don't bring anything to the table that would make a Custodes HQ be scared. I would plunge Ahriman head long into the same thing without fear and Ahriman isn't tooled for the fight phase. Plus it would help to see actual lists (or as close as possible) and tactics.

This is especially important: I believe their 6+ ignore works only on MW from Psychic Powers. That, and the fact that they FLY, means that you can feed them Flakk Missiles and Daemon Shells all day if you have the CP. Linebreaker Bombardment might work too, but might be too inefficient to set up.

Edited February 26, 2018 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Vorenus]

Sorry I goofed up something in my original post.  I meant that the Shield-Captain cut through a 10-man squad of Chaos TERMINATORS like they were conscripts, not just "regular" CSM.  I've edited the original post to correct the error.

Specifically, it was these Terminators:

 

[Vorenus]

As to what I've been seeing for the IG/AM:  Lots of cheap squads, usually minimum size, and usually spread out in cover all over the board, backed up by Wyverns and Basilisks that are parked behind line-of-sight blocking terrain in his backfield.  Killing their Guard units isn't a problem--provided I can get to them, and I often can't.  With 3-6 Shield Captain jetbikes getting off first-turn charges and tying up 3-6 units, and often wiping out whole units in quick succession (like the TERMINATORS I mentioned above), I am often on my back foot and can't break out of my deployment zone.  Cracking through those Shield Captains' 3++ Invulnerable Saves is tough, especially when he has a ton of CP to use for re-rolls or other stratagems.  

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

As to what I've been seeing for the IG/AM:  Lots of cheap squads, usually minimum size, and usually spread out in cover all over the board, backed up by Wyverns and Basilisks that are parked behind line-of-sight blocking terrain in his backfield.  Killing their Guard units isn't a problem--provided I can get to them, and I often can't.  With 3-6 Shield Captain jetbikes getting off first-turn charges and tying up 3-6 units, and often wiping out whole units in quick succession (like the TERMINATORS I mentioned above), I am often on my back foot and can't break out of my deployment zone.  Cracking through those Shield Captains' 3++ Invulnerable Saves is tough, especially when he has a ton of CP to use for re-rolls or other stratagems.  

Too many fists in those Termies. Disqualifies  many of them from Death to the False Emperor and lowers the number of hits too much. Also, why were they on the table at all on Turn 1 to get tied up? They should have been able to DS in once the Custodes were engaged and your screening units then fell back so that the Custodes could be melta'd and charged.

 

You did have screening units, right?

 

Termies can also be a point sink unit if over-equipped and that applies here. Plasma, Power Swords/Axes, Vets of the Long War....done. Maybe one set of lightning Claws on the champ or ONE chainfist. Nothing further, Your Honor. 

 

Other option is all combi-bolters. Just drop in at 12 in and cripple 2 Guard squads, then charge a third....even if it's in the front line because he had good board control.

 

Also, how was he getting 3++ on all of the Shield Captains? They need relics for that and only 2 relics can do that.

[Vorenus]

The Terminators were in a Chaos Spartan, which he blew up in the first turn.

 

This Spartan:

 

 

 

I had screening units--Cultists.  But he just jumped over them after he blew up the Spartan and charged in and slaughtered my Terminators.  It was not pretty.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

The Terminators were in a Chaos Spartan, which he blew up in the first turn.

 

This Spartan:

 

 

 

 

 

I had screening units--Cultists.  But he just jumped over them after he blew up the Spartan and charged in and slaughtered my Terminators.  It was not pretty.

Too many eggs, too big a basket. Probably looked great on the table. Your painting is great, but I imagine that more efficient things could have been done.

 

Now, if this is supposed to be a friendly game where you bring your cool stuff because you want to play it, he probably shouldn't have brought that "murder list."

 

Also, when facing flying enemies, you need multiple ranks of screens or huge blobs, with an eye toward not giving the enemy any room to be within 1" of the unit those screens protect. Against jetbikes, it's not where they have to charge through, it's where they LAND that's important. Don't forget to use table edges to your advantage either.

 

What was it that blew the Spartan? Basilisks? Salvo Launchers?

[Excessus]

At least your models met their doom while looking absolutely stunning! :)

[Raven1]

So I had a longer post but the internet ate it. So in summary optimize your list, minimize weakness like those terminators could be retooled larger screens and possible marauders from Renegades and heretics to stack non-psychic originating wounds. Edited February 27, 2018 by Raven1

[Soulhunter1995]

I`m with Raven1 on this one, Mortal Wound spam will do the best against shield captains and custodes :) Personally I faced custodes this weekend and managed to kill some of them but that was pure daemons not CSM I`m afraid :/

[HeresyBeliever]

I haven't faced them yet but I will be this weekend in a tournament as they are 8 lists out of 40. 

 

How I plan to deal with them is volume of saving rolls. yes a 2+ 3++ is so good! but if you roll 12 dice you will end up with some 1's. volume of fire has always been the answer against anything with a 3++ they will fail them but you need to concentrate fire power. 

Using VOTLW stratagem can help get those wounds through. 

 

40 cultist  = 40 shots = 20 hits (not taking into account any buffs / re-rolls) wounding on 5's = 6.7 wounds

40 cultist  = 40 shots = 20 hits (not taking into account any buffs / re-rolls) wounding on 4's with VOTLW = 10 wounds 

 

Double the above for rapid fire range or close combat attacks. 

 

Who ever it is with that 3++ save give them 15-20 dice to roll they should fail 5 on average. 

 

Leviathan Dread with dual butcher cannons

 

16 shots = 13 hits (not taking into account any buffs / re-rolls) wounding on 3's = 7 wounds at 2 damage. They will likely fail 2 so 4 wounds gone. 

 

Personally I would fill your army with heavy bolters / auto cannons. 

 

Massive AP -  weapons are wasted on a 2+ 3++ model just shower them in -1 AP bullets 

[norngahl]

Go for DecimatorS (!) with Soulburner Petards. Chances are your opponents will hatte you, but hey, it's a tourney.

[ChazSexington]

While not directly CSM, Bloodletters love CC with Custard Toads. You could summon them in and have a Loci somewhere. 30 Bloodletters on a charge will destroy things with relatively high T, several wounds, and good saves. 

[Soulhunter1995]

Belakor is a good shout, although again like Chaz said it's not technically CSM. Get Death Hex off and charge him in against them and all they have is the FNP :)

[ChazSexington]

Belakor is a good shout, although again like Chaz said it's not technically CSM. Get Death Hex off and charge him in against them and all they have is the FNP

 

Ah, yes, death hex is a great shout. Death Hex + Bloodletters or Death Hex + plasma.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Chaos Sorcerers and Daemon Princes can have Death Hex too, as can Thousand Sons characters of various kinds

 

A word of warning....if your opponent has even one regular Dawneagle unit along with the Shield Captains, watch out for their countercharge stratagem. They can activate it, charge you after your charge is complete, and then swing first, usually wrecking the charging unit.

 

On another note, this might be the time to bring out 3 Sicarans....usually considered unfair, but as has been said....the situation has changed if we're facing this stuff.

[Raven1]

If you are going for leviathen or decimator I would run with dual soulburners.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

If you are going for leviathen or decimator I would run with dual soulburners.

Contemptor can also rock dual Chainclaws with built in Soulburners (regular, not Petard). Those will hit on 2's and it's CC potential is pretty frightening. Comes in around 220.

 

Oh yeah...forgot the Hellforged Achilles Alpha Land Raider. 4++, Soulburner that doesn't need LOS and has 48in range, decent in CC, and 4 Multi-Melta shots which would usually not be that great.....but Custodes jetbikes come to you.

Edited February 27, 2018 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Trevak Dal]

Hmm. Do jetbikes have Jump shoot jump like in 7th, and can they disengage and then assault again like regular bikes or shoot again like stuff with fly?

 

If possible, I'd try and gang up on them. But I suppose you are between a rock and a hard place, the bike guys are probably super manuverable and the chaff...are there taking up space holding points.

 

With my Combined Arms chaos army, I'd probably play them Black Legion, or Renegades, try and assault the horde with my rhinos (after double douching them with combibolters) if I could take 3 man termicide squads still, I very much would take a vanguard detachment full of 3 man termicide squads and be a menace.

 

As it is, I'd reserve my terminators for a moment of opportunity sorcerer with them to give them warptime. Ctacs and raptors push with the rhinos into the chaff. Cultists (multiple 10 man squads) backed by a Apostle casually backed by some gun/fist helbrutes (thinking twin heavy Bolters).

 

The scrubs go after the Pointy Hatted fellows-its generally never a good idea to send your best after their best. In the best case you get mauled and there is mutual destruction.

 

Naw you want to :cuss with them. If they can't disengage and reengage like fly units or regular bikes, then I like the idea of assaulting them with rhinos.

 

If all else fails...havocs with plasma guns and a Lord.

[Aothaine]

Deep striking Plasma Terminators are good choice there. Make them Slaanesh for that doubletap and include a Terminator Lord or another model that gives you reroll ones. A unit of five of those in overheat mode double tapping should put some hurt on them. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Deep striking Plasma Terminators are good choice there. Make them Slaanesh for that doubletap and include a Terminator Lord or another model that gives you reroll ones. A unit of five of those in overheat mode double tapping should put some hurt on them. 

And make sure to save the DS until the captains have engaged with something that will then fall back. Otherwise, they'll be shielded by nearby Guard squads due to the Character rule.

[Vorenus]

Thank you to everyone who has shared ideas.  These are good suggestions, however, I'm not sure they are a good fit for me.  What it seems like everybody is saying is "build completely different lists".   Maybe that's the best advice.  I was hoping for some tactics, though, not just list-building tips.  I'm not a fan of tailoring my whole list just to fight one threat (i.e., the Shield Captain jetbikes).  Is there anything else I can do besides just redesign my list from the ground up?

 

 

 

Side note:  I can't take credit for my beautiful looking models.  I am a terrible painter--my hands shake too much for me to paint models well.  These models were all painted by Goatboy from Bell of Lost Souls.  He's my go-to artist that I regularly commission works from, and he does a great job.