War of Ideas

[Gibbous]

So, I played a big game this weekend. 4,000 pnts. I ended up getting beat, although I probably should have stuck it through and played it out. I was actually ahead in VP at the bottom of turn 3 (6-5), when he destroyed my Knight Paladin. I was mad at myself for not moving him the prior round like I had planned. Ended up exploding, 8" was the distance roll, wiped out 3 units completely, along with crippling 3 more. It was the same guy I played last week and beat after he had talked some smack, messaged me and said, "Hey, I have a 4k list we can play this weekend if you want." 

 

Well, he went home, retooled, knowing I only have one Army, and brought everything he could to pop my tanks. He brought a mix of Mechanicus and Custodes. -1 to hit on half his Army >12" away, -2 on stupid chicken things. That was annoying. By the time I realized what I needed to do (be mobile and get in his face) it was too late. He had knocked all 5 of my tanks to their last peg, killed the Shadowsword bottom of turn 2 (although that was fun). After popping the Knight, all I had were 2 squads scions, 4 squads infantry, Deathstrike, 1 shot left with Manticore, and the 5 "broken" tanks with 6+ to hit...smh. Well play on his part. I'll give him that. 

 

I've been bringing a Scion Battalion, LR Spearhead, and Psyker/Celestine Supreme Command. To get to 4k I add 1k in super heavies, and a brigade of cadian troops (DS, Manticore, HWS, 4x Sentinels). 

 

In the next week I should be getting 2 FW Hellhounds, and an Acheron Knight. Which will help with mobility. 

 

My question, what is, in your opinion, a good "All Comers" list with an AM core? Say 2000 pnts? What ideas should I look at? Thanks.

Edited February 27, 2018 by WarriorFish
Do not dodge the swear filter

[Gibbous]

The Story of the Shadowsword: 

 

Turn 1, somehow I end up getting to go first. I've only had first turn 1 other time since I started playing about 6 months ago! He had brought a Venerable Land Raider and put him in LOS of my SS. First thing I do is light up that Landraider. SS did 43 damage to it! I was feeling pretty smug about it. I kill a few other things he brought. Felt pretty good about things and thought the game would continue that way. Rolls were hot.

 

BT1, his walker tank things, one with a Neutron Cannon(?) and another hit my Shadowsword, dropped him 20 wounds...golly gee??? SS on his last peg can only move 4"... the twin heavy flamers I had attached...range of 8". Most of what his has is -1 to hit, so I can't really shoot at anything "big" because I'm too far away AND need a 6+ to hit. Well, *&^%*%!!!

 

Turn 2, I have an idea, I measure distances, 4" move gets me within 10" of a squad of Electropriests, right behind 2" are his "walker tank" things. Need a 9 to make the charge and get it! YAY. At least SS is away from my side. Hopefully, I can make him explode. I pile in on his walker tank. 

 

BT2, He doesn't pull his units out of combat with the SS, but tries repeatedly to pistol it to death, which fails. Then during the fight phase he gets the SS down to 1 wound remaining. 

 

Turn 3, He didn't realize Mr SS could still fire his weapons while in combat, so his electropriests get burnt alive (I should have split between walker tank and priests). Nothing else really happens for me. Dice done froze up on me. During the fight phase he FINALLY takes the last wound off of the SS. I'm TRYING to get him to explode, because it is right in the middle of his entire army. I roll a 4, command re-roll...a 5... D***it all to...

[WarriorFish]

List tailoring is generally frowned upon against someone with one army in particular, so I wouldn't feel too bad. As for a core list I focus on numbers - both in units and dice. Plenty of infantry to escort the higher value units as well provide a defensive line and do some killing of their own. That said, infantry only do a bit of the killing most of that comes from your heavy hitters. Leman Russ tanks in particular can do a fair bit of damage and are resilient too (Techpriests also help here), but Guard has plenty of other options too.

 

It's also worth considering a counter assault element for when the enemy big bad stabby squad arrives, Bullgryns will do very well here and may surprise your opponent. If you could put up your list(s) that might help people provide useful feedback on potential changes :tu:

[NatBrannigan]

List tailoring is pants really, when you know what your opponent is bringing. I try to actively avoid it because it makes winning hollow and would make me feel like quite the douche.

 

Even in Fantasy if I knew my opponent was using Daemons, I'd change from my normal Lore of light because it was sickeningly effective against them.

 

A balanced list is very very easy with Guard at the moment. Plenty of Infantry squads because they're ace. Like the wise fish says they won't actually kill all that much (good against other light infantry though) but they'll take objectives, get in the way and boy they can be fast with orders. Scions for precision strikes from reserve. Tanks and HWS's for big guns and you're all set. Another vote for Bullgryns here, people just can't seem to get used to the idea of Guard having a proper close combat unit. They're brutal!

[Inso]

I've said it before but a general rarely has all the tools he needs at his disposal. What makes a good general, is being able to use the tools that he has, to the best of their potential.

 

If you tailor your list for each opponent, then you have to question your abilities as a general.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Inso

[Hatarus]

honesty build to your specialty and master it, the whole idea of a "all comers" list is spreading yourself to thine remember in the lore the guard are broken up into things like Infantry and Artillery and the specialize in them same should go for your guard too, think of it like this. If a person is Tailoring their list just so they can win it means you are doing something right  

[Tyr13]

Personally, I dont mind list-tailoring to an extent - if both are aware of the other persons general forces, that is. Say, my opponent brings his Tau, I bring my guard. I know hes going infantry-heavy, so I dont pack too much AT. He knows Im mostly mechanised, so he brings a lot of AT. Saves some frustration with lopsided lists. (bringing a lot of Anti infantry would be a waste in my usual lists, for instance).

One-sided tailoring is a no-go though.

[NatBrannigan]

One-sided tailoring, good point.

 

Not a fun game if one player brings 5 Imperial Knights and the other brings 500 Termagaunts...

 

This guy sounds a bit, well he sounds like THAT guy doesn't he? Just play against someone else :)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

honesty build to your specialty and master it, the whole idea of a "all comers" list is spreading yourself to thine remember in the lore the guard are broken up into things like Infantry and Artillery and the specialize in them same should go for your guard too, think of it like this. If a person is Tailoring their list just so they can win it means you are doing something right  

Seconded. 

 

The guy you faced, Gibbous, sounds like a jerk. I'm not opposed to list building after forces have been determined. I played a friend, who had a specific way of playing his Tau (broadside missile spam). He brought an anti infantry list, and I took a fast armored assault list (space wolves) and tabled him turn at the top of turn 3. He didn't expect me to bring that list, since he knew my preference for infantry. 

 

List tailoring is inevitable, it's a matter of degree. If the guy can't win without list tailoring, that means you need to figure out what his list was meant to counter, and then counter that. That's probably best handled by a change in target prioritization. 

[Colonel Cross]

In my 2k TAC list I usually have Spearhead with 3-4 leman russes and a BN of troops. Everything else is interchangeable. Lately I've been running Bullgryn in a Valk and a BN of min sized squads of Scions.

[tychobi]

This is really the difference between competative and pub style warhammer. List tailoring is a non issue in tournaments when you don't know who you are going to face. For games vs known opponents list tailoring is hard to escape. If I'm playing casual I am really just practicing for tournament play so I come with balanced (to take on all comers) lists. If my opponent tailors against my list so much the better. Tough fights and losses teach volumes more than easy wins.

[duz_]

As many people have already mentioned list tailoring is somewhat inevitable unless you bring the same list all the time and to do it is probably the smarter thing to do.

Its a matter to what degree do you take it to.

 

Either way Gib was more interested in thoughts on TAC lists

 

 

My question, what is, in your opinion, a good "All Comers" list with an AM core? Say 2000 pnts? What ideas should I look at? Thanks.

 

This edition for guard plenty of infantry and some LRs is always a good start. Then season to taste depending if you want a double battalion + support or brigade. Hellhounds are always handy too, as well as area denial scout sentinels and ratlings.