Really tired of seeing flying golden bananas everywhere.....

[TiguriusX]

I faced regular custodes bikes rather than shield captains but i basically dared them to come at my lascannons. If i had a shot i took it. Needed cp reroll on a bad damage roll but i dropped the sobs and their 4++ eventually. All it takes is a few failed saves.

The jet bikes couldn't charge my LF because i had a screening force in the way that would tear them up. Besides shield dreads i also had my own wg bikers who throw buckets of dice and can get lucky wounds through.

Regular custodes bikes I would say are manageable since unlikely they can bump their saves to 3++ unlike the solo shield captains, and you can shoot them anytime you want as long as you can see then. But super characters on super flying bikes are just begging to abuse the character rules and on top of that, bring their durability into better than TH/SS level on a FAST unit.

You used your Dread and WG bikers as your counter charge unit? Bear in mind though, normally I put Long Fangs on upstair ruins, and dreads and bikes can't climb ruins. Besides, once they charge, they would have killed the back line heavy support and done their job before the counter charge units come knocking. Unless you have someone like Ragnar who as a 6" heroic intervention.

Hmmm, I think I'll do what I've been doing in my regular games: park the Long Fangs out of LOS, then use Rhinos and Razorbacks left behind by my GH squads whom I decided to outflank, then move to better locations while escorted by my counter charge units. This will give the bananas no viable or valuable weak targets to shoot/charge.

Due to the nature of deployment and terrain it was basically 2 long alleys.

My LF-LC are bottom right

My screening force is simply working their way across the map but preventing him from approaching to pick off the LFs

The solo dread in the rear is Bjorn taking potshots with his LC and safe from being hit b/c he is an HQ and has friendly units closer

The custodes jet bikes are the yellow blob hiding between the tower and middle terrain

I outflanked my LF-PC to that corner to lure them out of cover so I could shoot them (I also got a free round of firing at an exposed Azrael but rolled poorly)

But yes...back to your original concern. The Captains get HQ protection. Are they racing down the board at you with a screen unit? How tough is the screening unit? There are too many variables to discuss. My preferred response to is hammer them with D6 damage weapons and burn CP on the damage rolls if I can sneak them through. My backup plan is to throw buckets of dice at them.

You have to clear the screen if you want the shield captain. If he is flying at you then the screening unit has to be close too

[Kasper_Hawser]

I faced regular custodes bikes rather than shield captains but i basically dared them to come at my lascannons. If i had a shot i took it. Needed cp reroll on a bad damage roll but i dropped the sobs and their 4++ eventually. All it takes is a few failed saves.

The jet bikes couldn't charge my LF because i had a screening force in the way that would tear them up. Besides shield dreads i also had my own wg bikers who throw buckets of dice and can get lucky wounds through.

Regular custodes bikes I would say are manageable since unlikely they can bump their saves to 3++ unlike the solo shield captains, and you can shoot them anytime you want as long as you can see then. But super characters on super flying bikes are just begging to abuse the character rules and on top of that, bring their durability into better than TH/SS level on a FAST unit.

You used your Dread and WG bikers as your counter charge unit? Bear in mind though, normally I put Long Fangs on upstair ruins, and dreads and bikes can't climb ruins. Besides, once they charge, they would have killed the back line heavy support and done their job before the counter charge units come knocking. Unless you have someone like Ragnar who as a 6" heroic intervention.

Hmmm, I think I'll do what I've been doing in my regular games: park the Long Fangs out of LOS, then use Rhinos and Razorbacks left behind by my GH squads whom I decided to outflank, then move to better locations while escorted by my counter charge units. This will give the bananas no viable or valuable weak targets to shoot/charge.

Due to the nature of deployment and terrain it was basically 2 long alleys.

My LF-LC are bottom right

My screening force is simply working their way across the map but preventing him from approaching to pick off the LFs

The solo dread in the rear is Bjorn taking potshots with his LC and safe from being hit b/c he is an HQ and has friendly units closer

The custodes jet bikes are the yellow blob hiding between the tower and middle terrain

I outflanked my LF-PC to that corner to lure them out of cover so I could shoot them (I also got a free round of firing at an exposed Azrael but rolled poorly)

But yes...back to your original concern. The Captains get HQ protection. Are they racing down the board at you with a screen unit? How tough is the screening unit? There are too many variables to discuss. My preferred response to is hammer them with D6 damage weapons and burn CP on the damage rolls if I can sneak them through. My backup plan is to throw buckets of dice at them.

You have to clear the screen if you want the shield captain. If he is flying at you then the screening unit has to be close too

Well done. I haven't tried it yet, but outflanking Long fangs is could pay off dividends due to their natural reroll ones. And hitting on 4+ isn't really THAT detrimental, if Guardsman can thrive with BS4+, I'm sure Marines can. Right now, I'm thinking of 5 Heavy bolters as anti-chaff clearers, before the backline heavy hitters like predators and LF with PC/LC/Missiles take their shots. And Heavy Bolters aren't too expensive so one can consider losing them. And if they come after the outflanking LF, they maybe exposed.

Sadly will only be good against generic custode bikes as opposed to the HQs. Unless he/she is stupid enough have chaff near enough to get the character protection.

[Gherrick]

I'm still loving throwing my LFs inside a bastion. 20 T9 wounds takes a lot of focus to take down, and the extra LoS is often utilized in keeping them relevant the whole game. This also helps them stick around long enough to deal with things like captains on bikes...

[TiguriusX]

That is a hefty price for 1 unit of LFs to keep safe (rules I'm reading say 1 unit of infantry and any number of characters).

 

But technically you can toas a CML on their wgpl and keep a ton of heavy weapons firing

[Kasper_Hawser]

I faced an Imperial Soup army last Sunday with an IG Blob (about 9 commanders and abount 9 Guardsmen, 1 Shadowsword, 3 Bananas captains and 3 Assassins (culexus and calidus).

 

For context, I was still using Imperium Index 1 Wolves and Chapter Approved changes ONLY.  2 Battalions of Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and a couple of newly joined Intercessors seeking to prove themselves to the chapter. As it is, the only real thing they proved themselves was surviving a round of battle with a Calidus.

 

Somewhat happy to report that in the end, I survived to Turn 4 with at least 6 units of my army left. Surprisingly the Culexus didn't exactly kill a lot and my psychic rolls were high enough to negate the psychic test debuff. And I took down ONE of the shield captains, albeit it was the only one that didn't have a 3++.

 

Dear Lord, that was an uphill battle. I outflanked most of my infantry except for a Rhino filled with plasma grey hunters, but I just couldn't find a place to charge my Melta Squad, Wulfen, Skyclaws and a big blob of Blood claws led by a terminator with shield and frost sword. ironically only the Blood Claws managed to charge on the outflank and they didn't even need the reroll from the Wulfen nearby.

 

The Wulfen meanwhile, at a Volcano cannon and 2 lascannons, failing to make a single 3++ save.

 

Still, I kept my cool and played till end Turn 4 before ending the game amicably. The whole point was to test if I had the mental fortitude to take on such a cheesy list and I'm glad to say i walked away from the game, well, if not smiling, at least not heartbroken.

 

Just have to be stoic and eat the cheese since they are serving it to me on a golden banana plate. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Kasper_Hawser

[TiguriusX]

Shadowsword and banana captains...wow

 

Terrain not good enough to block los? Call forth more long fangs!

[Kasper_Hawser]

Shadowsword and banana captains...wow

 

Terrain not good enough to block los? Call forth more long fangs!

 

Terrain was quite OK, but there was really only one big piece I most of my army behind, and I HAD to group them together, if not the Assassins will pick them off one by one. So when he infiltrated and charged his Calidus and two Culexus, at least I had my intercessors and a Rhino full of my plasma hunters to take the brunt. 

 

My general plan? force him to come to me and hide like hell until the Assassins and bananas are dealt with. 

 

It did work but when Turn 3 came and I was forced to commit all my reserves, he had covered nearly 3/4 of the board edges of with his IG blobs and 9 commanders yelling MOVE MOVE MOVE to each other and themselves.

 

Oh, also forgot to mention he had 3 Hellhounds. Don't you just love soup?

 

Yep, I'm proud of myself for facing this list with just my humble Grey Hunters and Long Fangs. And one of my Rune priest did manage to take down a Culexus and the banana captain with 4++ . sadly the other one tarptitted my HQs for the whole game.

[Nrthstar]

 

 

Anyone found any reliable counters? Normally i'd say my 3PC/2LC fangs would do the trick but i dont like the -1 to hit that most WL seem to take.

 

 

You can't tie up bikes, they have fly.  You can charge them and they'll just scoot away.  For wolves, you need a big pack of Fenrisian Wolves to block out the bikes from charging what they really want to charge.  Give them no space to land to charge.  I blocked 6 shield captains on bikes this weekend with my Nids using large blobs of Termagants.

 

 

While I thank you for your simple tactic, please note that I'm seeking a counter from the following perspectives. I really hope you are not recommending me to get some nids to bubble wrap my Long Fangs:

 

1) Using only Space Wolves Index Imperium (almost impossible I know, only cheap bubble wrap we got is fen wolves which have abysmal Lead 4.

2) Using perhaps one other ally that make sense ASIDE from golden bananas. Even allying with the wolves cross dressing cousins the Dark Angels would make more sense.

 

@ Nrthstar, point taken. Perhaps its finally time to start doing up some mortal allies for myself. I even planned for this years ago to go guard as a secondary ally but I was just so insistent on only Space Wolves, and completely disgusted with the old allies system in the past, even more with soup armies.

 

Sigh, if only like some strategy games or MMORPG like World of Warcraft, we have a unit or foot slogging character that can TAUNT a unit and force them to come nearer or even force them to shoot only them in their phase. Aggro management so to speak.

 

 

 

I said Fen wolves in my post even, not sure why you would think I was telling you to use Nids.  Fen wolves did just get a point reduction.  Sure their leadership is meh, but your goal is for them to live long enough to make sure nothing can land on your valuable gun line.  Their a sacrificial unit no matter what.  You can mix in some other stuff to fill the gaps, but just be careful relying on walls.  Since Bikes (Daemon Princes with wings, Hive Tyrants with wings, etc) have fly, they can ignore the walls like infantry.

[Leif Bearclaw]

So I was on board with the mono list until 7th.  When you first could take allies, I hated the idea.  My wolves would stand alone and be badasses.  But as someone who does read a lot of Black Library, the idea of a combined force (what you guys are calling soup) made more sense.  Rarely does any imperial force muster by itself.  All Adeptus Astartes fight side by side with guard, other chapters, etc.  I think we got stuck in our old ways, because most of us here in the Fang started 5th or before, when you could only take one army, and most of us, only built one army, Wolves, because we absolutely loved it and couldn't imagine anything else.

 

 

This keeps being brought up in soup/ally threads. Thing is though, I don't think it's all that accurate. At the Company/sub-Company level engagements (military unit size, not Astartes Companies) that are the scale of a standard 40k game, we don't actually see that many 'soup' style combined arms bits. There are some, sure, but 'monobuilds' are hardly rare. A Marine strike force of 30-50 guys often will conduct operations without other Imperial assets being present. The same is true in the inverse. Haven't the Ghosts only fought directly alongside Imperial Marines once (the Space Station Raid) in over a dozen novels, for example?

 

When we see combined Imperial armies, it's usually in engagements more suited to the old Epic scale than 40k. And old Epic reflected that, where you played 'Imperium', and most of the army was Guard detachments, with a few elite Titan and Marine units as support.

 

[Kasper_Hawser]

for what its worth, I'm sorry I brought up this old issue again. Was initially a rant about people doing that, but now that I've actually faced such a thing and walked away with my sanity intact, I need help to open my mind and list building to other allies to either fix the gap or simply counter the golden bananas. Assassins I can handle. Lord of Wars even I know the theory. But flying T6 characters is the latest headache which in combination with the other 2 (LOW and assassins)....

 

.... yeah maybe my sanity is just cracking up later but so far I'm OK. Just probably won't face that list again.

 

One thing for certain, the outflank strategem isn't useful when your opponent can literally cover nearly 3/4 of the board. And I really need more sources of reroll ones to hit to make sure my bolters actually hit something. Lords and Battle leaders on jump packs are cheapest alternatives but I don't like the idea of them on jump packs and everyone else on foot. Doesn't look nice to see a lone jump packer in an army of infantry.

 

Since my wulfen really didn't do much and can't even make their 3++ save, I think I'll do away with their wargear entirely and just bring them for their aura and threat. If I lose them, at least I didn't waste a TH/SS on them.

[Calistarius]

I don’t really understand where the hate comes from towards “soup” players. The game system has shifted towards mixed forces. That’s the whole idea behind the keyword “Imperium”, “Chaos”, and what have you (sorry to Xenos players). The codices are being written to be played this way. If you don’t like the idea for your own forces then don’t do it. But getting mad at players for playing the game in a new way just seems silly.

 

If you read Dark Imperium you’ll see that Guilliman takes Astra Militarum, Custodes, and Sisters of Silence on his New crusade. The Custodes themselves will only send a small detachment out at a time, and they follow no standard organization when they do so. Also, the basic Shield Captains are merely experienced veterens with respect to Custodes. They are the equivalent of a squad leader in their order.

 

I bought a box of these guys myself and think they’re excellent models. I’ve been asked how I plan to narratively fit them into my Blood Angels force. I just say that Guilliman left them to serve as advisors and guardians for Commander Dante after being named Regent. It fits for me considering the Aquilan Shield are dispatched to protect and safeguard individuals believed to be critical to the Emperor’s survival. Which, if you know anything of Dante’s recent narrative, you know he believes he’ll be the one standing between the Emperor and his destruction in the final battle. That’s good enough for me.

 

As for how to beat them? They’re not as strong on their own. They can be hard to handle if played in a pack instead of splitting them across the board. Just this last Saturday I lost 2 of mine before they could even swing against a squad of 8 Wulfen. They’re definitely stronger in a Battalion than in a Supreme Command, but just approach them like you would any meleee character. Throw bodies at them to slow them down and whittle away their wounds. If your opponent isn’t denying you board space it shouldn’t be as difficult. If they are...good luck!

[Kasper_Hawser]

I don’t really understand where the hate comes from towards “soup” players. The game system has shifted towards mixed forces. That’s the whole idea behind the keyword “Imperium”, “Chaos”, and what have you (sorry to Xenos players). The codices are being written to be played this way. If you don’t like the idea for your own forces then don’t do it. But getting mad at players for playing the game in a new way just seems silly.

 

If you read Dark Imperium you’ll see that Guilliman takes Astra Militarum, Custodes, and Sisters of Silence on his New crusade. The Custodes themselves will only send a small detachment out at a time, and they follow no standard organization when they do so. Also, the basic Shield Captains are merely experienced veterens with respect to Custodes. They are the equivalent of a squad leader in their order.

 

I bought a box of these guys myself and think they’re excellent models. I’ve been asked how I plan to narratively fit them into my Blood Angels force. I just say that Guilliman left them to serve as advisors and guardians for Commander Dante after being named Regent. It fits for me considering the Aquilan Shield are dispatched to protect and safeguard individuals believed to be critical to the Emperor’s survival. Which, if you know anything of Dante’s recent narrative, you know he believes he’ll be the one standing between the Emperor and his destruction in the final battle. That’s good enough for me.

 

As for how to beat them? They’re not as strong on their own. They can be hard to handle if played in a pack instead of splitting them across the board. Just this last Saturday I lost 2 of mine before they could even swing against a squad of 8 Wulfen. They’re definitely stronger in a Battalion than in a Supreme Command, but just approach them like you would any meleee character. Throw bodies at them to slow them down and whittle away their wounds. If your opponent isn’t denying you board space it shouldn’t be as difficult. If they are...good luck!

 

I know, actually it isn't even an eighth ed issue, this argument has been around since 6th ed, though it was stronger for the xenos (remember the Taudar?) then, and when 7th ed came, the super friends lists was so diverse it wasn't even funny to me from a fluff perspective. Initially I wanted to accept it and just soldier on with just my Wolves but it came to the point where I felt most weren't playing with strategy, they were just playing with toys. And yet I was taught to value boys over toys when i started out in end of 5th ed.

 

Anyway, you are right, fluff wise seems like marine chapters don't fight alone anymore. It used to be that Space Marine chapters are special forces either deployed BEFORE or AFTER the main forces like the Imperial Guard. But with return of Guilliman and the codex being re-vised more in line with Legion tactics, the Space Marine chapters and their primaris reinforcements are beginning to be less rapid reaction forces and more and more "mass army Legion style" confronting enemy head on, if such a thing can be said for the current Dark Imperium. The only ones I feel who will be at home with this are Black Templars or the Wolves who either have or used to have more than a thousand marines (Warzone Fenris implies that the Space wolves are like a single chapter strength now, meaning 1000 or less. Before that, it was implied each of the 12 Great Companies had more than a hundred marines each).

 

I guess the Imperial Soup or allied lists just makes my Space Wolves, who are my first loves, just less special as they try to fight on using their Fenrisian doctrines and weapons without resorting to asking Custodes to help out. Or instead of helping the Imperial Guard, asking the Imperial Guard to help them instead. It should be the other way round. Not that I deny the IG their glory and manliness, but right now and maybe for a few editions now, the tactical marine/Grey Hunter, the growing imperial soup players make me feel just down as I look at my nearly 100+ Space Wolves bodies and weep because I know they can never fully tackle anyone by themselves anymore.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Kasper_Hawser

[Melete]

I don’t really understand where the hate comes from towards “soup” players. The game system has shifted towards mixed forces. That’s the whole idea behind the keyword “Imperium”, “Chaos”, and what have you (sorry to Xenos players). The codices are being written to be played this way. If you don’t like the idea for your own forces then don’t do it. But getting mad at players for playing the game in a new way just seems silly.

 

If you read Dark Imperium you’ll see that Guilliman takes Astra Militarum, Custodes, and Sisters of Silence on his New crusade. The Custodes themselves will only send a small detachment out at a time, and they follow no standard organization when they do so. Also, the basic Shield Captains are merely experienced veterens with respect to Custodes. They are the equivalent of a squad leader in their order.

 

I bought a box of these guys myself and think they’re excellent models. I’ve been asked how I plan to narratively fit them into my Blood Angels force. I just say that Guilliman left them to serve as advisors and guardians for Commander Dante after being named Regent. It fits for me considering the Aquilan Shield are dispatched to protect and safeguard individuals believed to be critical to the Emperor’s survival. Which, if you know anything of Dante’s recent narrative, you know he believes he’ll be the one standing between the Emperor and his destruction in the final battle. That’s good enough for me.

 

As for how to beat them? They’re not as strong on their own. They can be hard to handle if played in a pack instead of splitting them across the board. Just this last Saturday I lost 2 of mine before they could even swing against a squad of 8 Wulfen. They’re definitely stronger in a Battalion than in a Supreme Command, but just approach them like you would any meleee character. Throw bodies at them to slow them down and whittle away their wounds. If your opponent isn’t denying you board space it shouldn’t be as difficult. If they are...good luck!

It's kind of obnoxious to feel like you're an idiot for bringing Grey Hunters or Intercessors to a game. But there's clearly no reason to bring units like that in a Soup world.

[Calistarius]

I think they're still viable.  I'm not saying you should min/max to the point of cherry picking the best unit from each Imperial codex/index available.  I'm merely saying it shouldn't be looked down upon to use blended forces.  Especially, with the direction the narrative is heading.  I also don't think pure codex armies should be seen as inferior.  Both are capable of winning in the hands of a good player, and we all know this game is fun regardless of how you want to field your armies.

 

@Kasper, you're right about the way Marine armies feel in general.  Like you, I started many editions ago, 3rd to be exact.  I remember the feeling of playing the most elite that mankind had to offer.  Now my standard BA force feels like the baseline for everything.  Gone are the days they'd send a lone Marine detachment to handle a conflict.

 

Edit: I keep telling my buddy to be patient.  I'm quite excited to see what they do with your codex after seeing what they gave us.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Calistarius

[TiguriusX]

 

It's kind of obnoxious to feel like you're an idiot for bringing Grey Hunters or Intercessors to a game. But there's clearly no reason to bring units like that in a Soup world.

 

 

Funny you should mention that.  I am going to field test a new way to use LFs that replaces my GHs

 

I make a barebones LF unit and give the WGPL and the LFPL plasma.  I toss in a storm shield for the WGPL too

 

I burn CP to outflank them and they operate like an MSU GH squad.  They cost slightly more but you get REROLL 1s which is more than worth it when you show up like gangbusters with your overcharged plasma shots.

 

Sure they don't have obsec but other armies usually drown us in numbers anyways.

 

My goal for this unit is to help me secure first blood as well as behind enemy lines points

I have at least 2 units like this in a spearhead detachment

 

Rapid fire some easy marks for a kill point and simply exist in the enemy backfield to get me points in the ITC format.  If they die oh well.  They acted as bait for my 2nd wave to drop down.  If they live it is a bonus.

 

Mono-codex stubborness!!

[Kasper_Hawser]

I think they're still viable.  I'm not saying you should min/max to the point of cherry picking the best unit from each Imperial codex/index available.  I'm merely saying it shouldn't be looked down upon to use blended forces.  Especially, with the direction the narrative is heading.  I also don't think pure codex armies should be seen as inferior.  Both are capable of winning in the hands of a good player, and we all know this game is fun regardless of how you want to field your armies.

 

@Kasper, you're right about the way Marine armies feel in general.  Like you, I started many editions ago, 3rd to be exact.  I remember the feeling of playing the most elite that mankind had to offer.  Now my standard BA force feels like the baseline for everything.  Gone are the days they'd send a lone Marine detachment to handle a conflict.

 

Edit: I keep telling my buddy to be patient.  I'm quite excited to see what they do with your codex after seeing what they gave us.

 

I also tell myself to be patient. But sadly my experience isn't so good when it comes to codex update. I joined the game in 2014, which was the tail end of 5th edition, and that was arguably the best time to be a wolf when the humble Grey Hunters was widely acknowledged as the best infantry in the game. Subsequent updates through the 6th ed and then Curse of the Wulfen the updates always seemed lacklustre, the only thing that got really good or cost effective was the TWC, which I'll decline to discuss as I don't have a lot of those and don't like the models. Curse of the Wulfen also gave a lot of wonky improvements like the questionable formations which can't compare with the gladius.

 

LOL, I think the only thing good that came out of those darn decurion type detachments, is that it was very hard to do an Imperial Soup with it, GW was encouraging mono-codex armies to go big or go home. sadly none of the Great Company detachments ever worked out for me except maybe the Ironwolves which allowed me to spam typhoon land speeders.

 

So while I wait for the wolves codex, I am generally pessimistic and don't expect it'll have the oomph of the Dark and Blood Angels. And even if it does have Russ, I'm not going to have him as my crutch like what most Ultramarine players do.

[Melete]

I think they're still viable.  I'm not saying you should min/max to the point of cherry picking the best unit from each Imperial codex/index available.  I'm merely saying it shouldn't be looked down upon to use blended forces.  Especially, with the direction the narrative is heading.  I also don't think pure codex armies should be seen as inferior.  Both are capable of winning in the hands of a good player, and we all know this game is fun regardless of how you want to field your armies.

 

@Kasper, you're right about the way Marine armies feel in general.  Like you, I started many editions ago, 3rd to be exact.  I remember the feeling of playing the most elite that mankind had to offer.  Now my standard BA force feels like the baseline for everything.  Gone are the days they'd send a lone Marine detachment to handle a conflict.

 

Edit: I keep telling my buddy to be patient.  I'm quite excited to see what they do with your codex after seeing what they gave us.

I don't really know what the word "viable" means (I suspect everyone has their own definition), so I won't comment on that.

 

But as for not cherrypicking detachments, though, that's where the soup hate comes from. You can say, "Oh, you don't have to take good units. You can take worse ones instead." And that's true. But other people will take the better option, and there's not much you can do about that because that's just the way the rules work. And you can still win while playing with some worse units, absolutely. But it's going to be a lot more reliable when you're using a better unit.

 

I can obviously extend this from between the soup debate to internal book balance. It's also harder to win if my army consists entirely of Wolf Guard terminators. But I think there's a fundamental difference between trying to spam a unit that you like for whatever reason, and trying to play a single faction in 40k. 

 

In the end, I just want to play a strong Space Wolves army, And it's obnoxious when I know that I can make my Wolves that much stronger by swapping them out for other bits and pieces. This doesn't have much to do with Space Wolves index balance, either, as even a very strong book like Craftworlds Eldar or Blood Angels improves when you bring in another book (Ynnari or Astra Militarum, respectively).

[Karhedron]

I managed to give the Custodes a good pasting yesterday but I was using my Eldar so not entirely comparable (Doom and Jinx brings their saves down to a manageable level).

 

What I did notice is that you really need the right tools for the job for Custodes. Their 2+ saves and multiple wounds make them horribly resilient to small-arms fire but their good invulnerable saves means a lot of high AP weapons will just bounce off them too. Unsurprisingly plasma and Assault cannons come out ahead in the numbers game. Plasma can put out multiple 2D shots. Assault cannons have high ROF with AP-1 which is a bit of a sweet-spot against custodes as it is enough to reduce their saves without wasting any. Intercessors with bolt rifles look like a fairly efficient way to get extra AP-1 shots in cheaply although S4 vs T5 is not great.

 

If you are willing to soup-up yourself then a Knight Castellan should do well with RFBC, Avenger and Ironspear rockets. All have decent RoF, middling AP and deal multiple wounds. You can also tap-dance on them in melee at a push as T8 is enough to ensure most of their melee weapons will only be wounding on a 5+ as they don't have much in the way of power fists or thunder hammers.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Karhedronuk

[Calistarius]

My instincts told me not to post a reply to this thread, but I just couldn't help myself.  I should have hesitated a little more.

 

I think they're still viable.  I'm not saying you should min/max to the point of cherry picking the best unit from each Imperial codex/index available.  I'm merely saying it shouldn't be looked down upon to use blended forces.  Especially, with the direction the narrative is heading.  I also don't think pure codex armies should be seen as inferior.  Both are capable of winning in the hands of a good player, and we all know this game is fun regardless of how you want to field your armies.

 

@Kasper, you're right about the way Marine armies feel in general.  Like you, I started many editions ago, 3rd to be exact.  I remember the feeling of playing the most elite that mankind had to offer.  Now my standard BA force feels like the baseline for everything.  Gone are the days they'd send a lone Marine detachment to handle a conflict.

 

Edit: I keep telling my buddy to be patient.  I'm quite excited to see what they do with your codex after seeing what they gave us.

 

I also tell myself to be patient. But sadly my experience isn't so good when it comes to codex update. I joined the game in 2014, which was the tail end of 5th edition, and that was arguably the best time to be a wolf when the humble Grey Hunters was widely acknowledged as the best infantry in the game. Subsequent updates through the 6th ed and then Curse of the Wulfen the updates always seemed lacklustre, the only thing that got really good or cost effective was the TWC, which I'll decline to discuss as I don't have a lot of those and don't like the models. Curse of the Wulfen also gave a lot of wonky improvements like the questionable formations which can't compare with the gladius.

 

LOL, I think the only thing good that came out of those darn decurion type detachments, is that it was very hard to do an Imperial Soup with it, GW was encouraging mono-codex armies to go big or go home. sadly none of the Great Company detachments ever worked out for me except maybe the Ironwolves which allowed me to spam typhoon land speeders.

 

So while I wait for the wolves codex, I am generally pessimistic and don't expect it'll have the oomph of the Dark and Blood Angels. And even if it does have Russ, I'm not going to have him as my crutch like what most Ultramarine players do.

 

Like many here, I too have played this game for a while now.  I've also been a part of the B&C community since 2004.  Most of my time has been spent lurking until recently.  I've seen and been a part of the rise and fall of armies.  I'm not sure if you remember, but it was also fun to be a BA player during 5th.  It was just as fun during 3rd and 4th, for me.  Fun is what you make of it though, yeah?  Like most non-codex armies, I struggled to win games during the Decurion era.  It was hard to compete with the bonuses gained by those formations.  I still managed though.  We all did.  

 

We have to begin by acknowledging that this hasn't been remotely close to the same game since 8th edition began last summer.  Just like any game there are differing degrees of difficulty.  Right now, playing an index army is like playing on hard mode.  I agree with it being discouraging to see other armies find their stride, but you have to decide what mindset you want to have about it.  I choose to be positive in most facets of my life.  To that extent, I remain quite optimistic about the potential GW has with the Wolves codex.  I think it will be awesome. 

 

 

I think they're still viable.  I'm not saying you should min/max to the point of cherry picking the best unit from each Imperial codex/index available.  I'm merely saying it shouldn't be looked down upon to use blended forces.  Especially, with the direction the narrative is heading.  I also don't think pure codex armies should be seen as inferior.  Both are capable of winning in the hands of a good player, and we all know this game is fun regardless of how you want to field your armies.

 

@Kasper, you're right about the way Marine armies feel in general.  Like you, I started many editions ago, 3rd to be exact.  I remember the feeling of playing the most elite that mankind had to offer.  Now my standard BA force feels like the baseline for everything.  Gone are the days they'd send a lone Marine detachment to handle a conflict.

 

Edit: I keep telling my buddy to be patient.  I'm quite excited to see what they do with your codex after seeing what they gave us.

I don't really know what the word "viable" means (I suspect everyone has their own definition), so I won't comment on that.

 

But as for not cherrypicking detachments, though, that's where the soup hate comes from. You can say, "Oh, you don't have to take good units. You can take worse ones instead." And that's true. But other people will take the better option, and there's not much you can do about that because that's just the way the rules work. And you can still win while playing with some worse units, absolutely. But it's going to be a lot more reliable when you're using a better unit.

 

I can obviously extend this from between the soup debate to internal book balance. It's also harder to win if my army consists entirely of Wolf Guard terminators. But I think there's a fundamental difference between trying to spam a unit that you like for whatever reason, and trying to play a single faction in 40k. 

 

In the end, I just want to play a strong Space Wolves army, And it's obnoxious when I know that I can make my Wolves that much stronger by swapping them out for other bits and pieces. This doesn't have much to do with Space Wolves index balance, either, as even a very strong book like Craftworlds Eldar or Blood Angels improves when you bring in another book (Ynnari or Astra Militarum, respectively).

 

By definition, viable means "capable of working successfully; feasible".  That's what I meant.  Grey Hunters and Intercessors can be equipped and played well enough as they are.  Are they the best troop choice in the game system?  No, absolutely not.  That doesn't mean that they don't have their place.  I use Intercessors myself.

 

Here's the way I look at it, why does it matter so much how other people collect their army?  Isn't that the beauty of this hobby?  It's customizable in nearly every aspect. Of course, some units are better from one codex to another.  I wasn't aware that was up for debate.  If someone wants to field a detachment with troops from codex A, HQs from codex B, and something else from codex C just for the sake of them being "the best options", they may do so.  They'll also lose every single one of the unique traits and special rules that likely help them be as good as they are.  

 

The new codices have been remarkably internally balance.  For example, Tyranids are capable of playing any way they'd like to.  Shooting, Assault heavy, psykers, or anything combination of the two.  I think that's pretty rad.  Trying to compare playing a pure index army vs a pure codex army is entirely another thing.  I've already agreed the index books are behind, so I won't dwell on that.  

 

Being able to combine factions is fun.  If you don't think it is fun, then don't do it.  However, if you're trying to take top tables in tournaments or events then you need to be okay with playing with a higher degree of difficulty if you refuse to use options available to you because they aren't pure mono-codex.  They made the game this way when they introduced keywords.  We have to adapt, or be okay playing behind the curve.

[Melete]

I'm sure you're a smart guy and you know this, but

 

 

 

If someone wants to field a detachment with troops from codex A, HQs from codex B, and something else from codex C just for the sake of them being "the best options", they may do so.  They'll also lose every single one of the unique traits and special rules that likely help them be as good as they are.

That's not actually how souping works. I'd take a Battalion or Brigade of Astra Militarum, then maybe a Supreme Command, Vanguard, or Outrider of Space Wolves so I can focus on some good units (like Wolf Lords, Wulfen, Wolf Guard, and TWC) and run those.

 

Pretty much the only time you're taking a mixed detachment is stuff like your standard Imperium Vanguard of a Company Commander (or Psyker) and 3 assassins, which we don't have to take since we can just take a Wolf Lord and 3 assassins. Also Celestine detachments, occasionally, but again, we can just slot Celestine into a Space Wolves detachment without losing any rules as neither us or Celestine have any.

 

 

 

However, if you're trying to take top tables in tournaments or events then you need to be okay with playing with a higher degree of difficulty if you refuse to use options available to you because they aren't pure mono-codex.

So, this all started because you were asking why people hate soup. This here is why I hate soup.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Melete

[Calistarius]

Well, I specifically said “a detachment of” meaning they were all in one Brigade, Battalion, etc. I’m more than aware that you’d want to field multiple detachments from different books. That’s not what it seemed like you were implying when you said why bother taking Intercessors or GH. I read that as using keyword Imperium to build your detachment pulling Troops from other sources. I should have been more specific when referring to your original post.

 

You hating “soup” because it is a stronger option than a pure codex force is now just a you problem at this point. Don’t play competitively if you don’t like it. Alternatively, you can adapt and utilize other sources to fill weaknesses in your army. It’s that simple. The rest of us will keep doing us.

 

As a “soup” player I felt the need to interject the open hostility. I can see I should have left it alone. Good luck!

[Melete]

You're welcome to like things I don't. I'm not trying to be openly hostile towards you, I simply dislike soup. Sorry if you interpreted it that way.

[Calistarius]

You're welcome to like things I don't. I'm not trying to be openly hostile towards you, I simply dislike soup. Sorry if you interpreted it that way.

Agreed, as are you! I didn’t take you as being hostile. Merely frustrated, which I get. I was interjecting the original post, as it came off as hostile by my initial reading of it. I didn’t intend to stir up anything. I just wanted to present an alternative approach or point of view.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

You're welcome to like things I don't. I'm not trying to be openly hostile towards you, I simply dislike soup. Sorry if you interpreted it that way.

Agreed, as are you! I didn’t take you as being hostile. Merely frustrated, which I get. I was interjecting the original post, as it came off as hostile by my initial reading of it. I didn’t intend to stir up anything. I just wanted to present an alternative approach or point of view.

 

 

Alternate view accepted, nevertheless still having trouble swallowing current reality. A reality where playing an army of soldiers led by generals, super soldiers, xenos, or otherwise, is drastically different from 5th edition and the glory days that came with the Grey Hunter era and its corresponding Rhino Rush. 

 

And as highlighted by a few, the Imperial Soup DOES make sense from fluff perspective, at least to certain extent. I still have a hard time imagining Custodes bringing themselves down to the Imperium ground troops level. If they look down on Astartes, I can't imagine how they look at dealing with mortals, although they SHOULD since their homebase is Terra with all the political drama in it that makes Game of Thrones look like a happily ever after fairy tale.

 

It could be worse I guess. So far nobody has tried to do an entire army of Avengers by taking just super HQ and characters. Oh wait, I think it actually happened already with multiple Culexus before the slight change in character rules preventing them from covering another character. Or the famed Tau Commander spam.

[sturguard]

Calistarius,

 

Hopefully I am not misinterpreting Melete's opinion- but I believe it's similar to my own. The problem with soup, is in general, people don't make soup lists to accomodate what they have in their collection, they don't take units that are let's say below average in their lists, in my experience its always the best of what they can take competitively. If Custodes were horrible, even average, you wouldn't see them in lists, no matter how good the models are. To complicate this, many people play at a hobby store or are forced to go somewhere to play. For years I had no one locally and would drive 30-45 minutes to the closest gaming store that had a group of folks playing 40k. Being the new guy, or lets say the guy that just plays once a month you aren't in a position to dictate what games you'll play and what you won't (as the goal is to play with your models, not start conflict with guys you dont really know). So you are really at the whim of whatever the meta is. 

 

Years and years ago, I played that game. If something was good, I'd put it in my list. Now, I can't be bothered. You can argue 40k is now a better game in 8th than 5th, or vice versa, but I don't think you can argue it isn't a different game. Doesn't feel the same, doesn't look the same. I have zero interest in the new fluff which I know is going to drive the new models and game play. Lucky for me, I have a few old school types that I can play basement games and play however I like. Ultimately that's why 30k and the 7th edition rules are just so much better to me really. Yeah, 7th has some issues but every single edition including 8th has issues and being you are playing marines against marines, you don't really notice those issues as much (now that invisibility is gone- probably the biggest offender). 

 

Anyways, I guess the key is to find players that enjoy the game the same as you do (although that can be hard depending on where you live).