Really tired of seeing flying golden bananas everywhere.....

[Calistarius]

You're absolutely right, sturguard.  

 

I'll concede to this, and rephrase my defense of "soup".  I didn't think about it in these terms.  Allow me to elaborate further.  

 

I don't have a problem with "soup" lists being fielded in competitive play.  The game system that's been built with the 8th edition codices encourages this type of list building.  Every codex that has released, aside from non-codex compliant chapters/legions, have had access to up to 6 different chapter, legion, regiment, craftworld, etc. traits that offer a wider variety of play.  In one codex you're able to field multiple detachments of the same faction using different sub-factions to fill in weak spots in your list.  Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Death Guard, Thousand Sons and undoubtedly Space Wolves won't be able to do that.  That is where the overall usage of <Imperium/Chaos> comes in to play.  I don't see it as an issue for players to play the game the way I see it as being intended based on this newly designed mechanic.  In this instance you won't see "soup" players taking units that aren't good.  Why would they in this environment?  They're out there trying to make a name for themselves and win an event.

 

That being said, I too play at a local game store.  I will alter my lists that I bring down to play because I want it to be fun for everyone.  Some people don't enjoy playing a game of 40k without just absolutely wrecking their opponent.  These power gamers will always be there, and have always been there.  I've never had the hobby funds to be such a player, but I can't fault them for it.  I think it is up to us as a community to police this kind of behavior.  It can be detrimental to a local gaming scene.  It has happened more than once in my community where a couple of power gamers have driven off the less than casual players, and we essentially had to start from scratch with our player base.  I take it upon myself to advise the veteran players to not take tournament lists in casual games, especially if someone from out of town or a new player is involved.  It just isn't fun for all parties this way.  I mean, if you have a guy bringing a Black Legion/Death Guard zombie horde to casual games with roughly 260 models try talking to them about it.  Maybe they don't even consider their opponent not having fun against something top tier during a casual beerhammer game.  I think this is on us as a community, but it doesn't reflect tournament play where the objective is to win and only win (while being a good damned sport about it).

 

I would say 8th edition is the most different game system of 40k we've had.  I don't know about he Rogue Trader and 2nd edition periods.  I began in 3rd and that was before my time.  We've never had this kind of flexibility to play the game the style we want to.  I love it.  That's okay that you don't like the new fluff.  I don't like it all either.  I rolled my eyes so hard it hurt when I read about the Blood Angels being rescued by the combination of Ultramarines, Legion of the Damned, the Sanguinor, and Khorne.  That's quite the motley crew.  The only thing it was missing was an appearance by the Imperium's very own greater demon, Celestine.  I didn't like this story.  It does offer a way to include Primaris and any other forms of reinforcements I feel like taking though.  The new fluff has expanded the universe, which is something a lot of us wanted.  Not all, but quite a bit of us felt the 40k universe was growing stagnant and boring.  I enjoy the possibilities for joint task forces.  The old 40k universe essentially operated with a bunch of warrior kings and their armies off doing whatever they wanted.  It was rare to see them work together, and when they did it wasn't written very well.  I can't say the same about the last few years.  It's actually more rare to see a single faction, regardless of race, accomplish anything significant on their own.  Hell, it took Eldar and Ad Mech to wake up Bobby G.  Can you imagine if something like that was written 10 or even 5 years ago?  We thought the Blood Angels/Necron alliance was bitter tasting at the time.  That would have been met with torches and pitchforks.  

 

Honestly, my whole point with responding to this thread wasn't intending to sound preachy, but to say just keep playing the game you want to.  However, if you're playing anything other than casually and you're not taking advantage of the new game mechanics you will be inherently behind the 8-ball.  If you're not having fun don't be afraid to try something new.  Its taken me a while to come to terms with some of my favorite units not being good anymore.  I finally just quit playing those units, because it hurt my soul each time I'd field them to my own detriment.  I sold them off instead.  Try to be flexible, and see it from another perspective.  Not all of us are here to just smash face. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ Calistrius - It is always a pleasure hearing the perspective from an old player. And thankfully you have reminded me that just because I don't agree with the way they build their lists doesn't mean I have to grab my own pitchforks and torches. I simply do not play them, or if I do, ask if they can tone down their lists IF THEY CAN. Because as you say, some people don't know any other way to have fun except to wreck face, and expect the other to do the same.

I really appreciate your input, and no you do not sound preachy. You just sound wise. Fitting for a Blood Angel.

That being said, I too play at a local game store. I will alter my lists that I bring down to play because I want it to be fun for everyone. Some people don't enjoy playing a game of 40k without just absolutely wrecking their opponent. These power gamers will always be there, and have always been there. I've never had the hobby funds to be such a player, but I can't fault them for it. I think it is up to us as a community to police this kind of behavior. It can be detrimental to a local gaming scene. It has happened more than once in my community where a couple of power gamers have driven off the less than casual players, and we essentially had to start from scratch with our player base. I take it upon myself to advise the veteran players to not take tournament lists in casual games, especially if someone from out of town or a new player is involved. It just isn't fun for all parties this way. I mean, if you have a guy bringing a Black Legion/Death Guard zombie horde to casual games with roughly 260 models try talking to them about it. Maybe they don't even consider their opponent not having fun against something top tier during a casual beerhammer game. I think this is on us as a community, but it doesn't reflect tournament play where the objective is to win and only win (while being a good damned sport about it).

Honestly, my whole point with responding to this thread wasn't intending to sound preachy, but to say just keep playing the game you want to. However, if you're playing anything other than casually and you're not taking advantage of the new game mechanics you will be inherently behind the 8-ball. If you're not having fun don't be afraid to try something new. Its taken me a while to come to terms with some of my favorite units not being good anymore. I finally just quit playing those units, because it hurt my soul each time I'd field them to my own detriment. I sold them off instead. Try to be flexible, and see it from another perspective. Not all of us are here to just smash face.

Regarding coming to terms with favorite units not being good anymore, yeah, my poor terminators which unfortunately includes chapter master Grimnar, are languishing in my box because EVERY SINGLE TIME I bring them out even for casual games, THEY ALL DIE TO ONE ROUND OF SHOOTING, 3++ OR NOT! Bad luck I know, but the fact is without any secondary defence like a FNP or Apothecary resurrection, which Wolf Priest can't do, their survivability is STILL sucky.

Sigh, my poor terminators. And poor Grimnar being stuck in one.

Same with assault marines. Nevertheless, I'm slowly bringing them (termies and assault marines/sky claws) in to fill up some small gaps, I just make sure i don't centre my strategy around them anymore. Meaning I have to admit that Loganwing is long dead and no use trying to bring that dead horse back to life. Thus far my only game where they survived to win the game was as a tough objective camper. Deepstruck them behind LOS near objective, then patiently waited till Turn 4/5 before running to it. Even then was nearly shot off in last turn but managed to hold on long enough even against a charge by a few big targets.

So long story cut short, keep calm and make a list. Sorry, what I meant to say, play the way you want or like to play, just have the right expectation if you want to play against a super/competitive/soup list. That's how I managed to maintain my sanity in my game. I roughtly accepted that barring stupid mistakes, my opponent was going to win, it's just how badly or how gracefully I handle the game. Which I'm happy to say I did very well and had a good laugh and discussion later.

These are the pictures of that battle by the way. Just bear in mind that those 3 blue rhinos represent Hellhounds with inferno cannons and heavy flamers. Also what you DON'T see, is a Calidus assassin and 2 Culexus. Oooh and look at the cute little Shadowsword with a fancy volcano cannon.......

these are my poor wolves. It looks small because the following were in reserve:

1) Wolf Lord with jump pack, storm bolter and Krakensword

2) 6 man sky claws with powerfist

3) 12 man Blood Claws with terminator sergeant with SS and Frost Sword

4) 10 man Grey Hunter squad with 2 melta and combi melta.

Long story cut short, the 2 Culexus and Calidus ended up tying up nearly everyone you see in my backline except for a 10 man squad of plasma hunters inside the Rhino. I bunched them as much as I can to protect my characters from 1st turn charge and also avoid that damn Shadowsword.

Yup, I'm still sane.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Kasper_Hawser

[Wolf Guard Dan]

The game is changing. We need to adapt or die.

 

We have a good core of units that when we get our codex we can be exceptional. That will depend on the stratagems we get and what synergy they provide.

 

That match-up is terrible for your list. Dang. Shadowsword, assassins, and banana captains. That's an exceptionally competitive list. Honestly, marines are just red shirts to that. Props to you for finishing the game.

 

Hopefully we don't have to wait too long for our dex. It's getting boring waiting. Once it comes instead of licking our wounds we will be planning our victories for the Allfather!

 

The unit I am high on is packs of Fenrisian wolves. Good, cheap bubble wrap. And if your opponent ignores them they will find a hard hitting unit quickly in their lines. Their -1 AP is super nice. 120-150 points of Fen Wolf bubble-wrap potentially saves your back-line from being tied up. Bubble wrap is extremely important to this edition.

[Kasper_Hawser]

The game is changing. We need to adapt or die.

 

We have a good core of units that when we get our codex we can be exceptional. That will depend on the stratagems we get and what synergy they provide.

 

That match-up is terrible for your list. Dang. Shadowsword, assassins, and banana captains. That's an exceptionally competitive list. Honestly, marines are just red shirts to that. Props to you for finishing the game.

 

Hopefully we don't have to wait too long for our dex. It's getting boring waiting. Once it comes instead of licking our wounds we will be planning our victories for the Allfather!

 

The unit I am high on is packs of Fenrisian wolves. Good, cheap bubble wrap. And if your opponent ignores them they will find a hard hitting unit quickly in their lines. Their -1 AP is super nice. 120-150 points of Fen Wolf bubble-wrap potentially saves your back-line from being tied up. Bubble wrap is extremely important to this edition.

 

Thanks for the props. At least I killed off one of the bananas and 2 of the assassins.

 

Looking back, the biggest impediment wasn't any of what you mentioned. It was the nine infantry squads and nearly same number of company commanders just obscenely covering the whole board and table edges leaving me no room to outflank. And I have to outflank as there wasn't enough terrain to hide my stuff LOS.

 

Oh well, one thing for certain I am NOT going to join my upcoming FLGS tourney. If I can barely survive this "baseline" competitive imperial soup, better not upset myself by playing with the big boys. Unless I'm in a particularly masochistic mood.